Official Trade Thread Part XLVI

[mhd]

Wizards Questions
1. How much will Tyus Jones sign for?

I posted this a couple of days ago:

I suspect Tyus will be resigned, and I don't think it will cost too much. I think this Trade Deadline demonstrated that there isn't a huge demand out there for Tyus as a starter. People want him as a backup and aren't willing to break the bank to get him. I figure the best offer out there will be the MLE, and probably not for a full 4 years.

A 3-year MLE contract with 5% raises pays him $12.8, $13.5 and $14.1M over the next 3 years respectively for a total of $40.4M. I figure we can offer him a 3-year $42M deal and a starting role and that will beat all other offers. Also, a 3-year deal has his contract expire alongside Poole's (and Kuzma's if he lasts that long) which will likely set us up for a max free agent in 2027 to add to our developing rookie contract squad. Frontload the deal with 8% salary declines each year and it will look like this: $15.2M, $14.0M, $12.8M. In two years, that $12.8M salary will be just 80% of the MLE, which is equivalent to a $9.9M contract today. That should make him pretty tradeable.

I think the Spurs are the one threat for him. His defensive shortcomings would be mitigated by Wemby and his brother already on the team.

[pcbothwel]

Wizards Questions
1. How much will Tyus Jones sign for?

I posted this a couple of days ago:

I suspect Tyus will be resigned, and I don't think it will cost too much. I think this Trade Deadline demonstrated that there isn't a huge demand out there for Tyus as a starter. People want him as a backup and aren't willing to break the bank to get him. I figure the best offer out there will be the MLE, and probably not for a full 4 years.

A 3-year MLE contract with 5% raises pays him $12.8, $13.5 and $14.1M over the next 3 years respectively for a total of $40.4M. I figure we can offer him a 3-year $42M deal and a starting role and that will beat all other offers. Also, a 3-year deal has his contract expire alongside Poole's (and Kuzma's if he lasts that long) which will likely set us up for a max free agent in 2027 to add to our developing rookie contract squad. Frontload the deal with 8% salary declines each year and it will look like this: $15.2M, $14.0M, $12.8M. In two years, that $12.8M salary will be just 80% of the MLE, which is equivalent to a $9.9M contract today. That should make him pretty tradeable.

I'd go 3/50M if we can get it declining.

[tontoz]

I think the Spurs are the one threat for him. His defensive shortcomings would be mitigated by Wemby and his brother already on the team.

I doubt it. Spurs have two picks in the top 10 in this year's draft. Pretty safe bet one of them is a pg and they have jones there as a backup.

[Rafael122]

Tre Jones has been beneficial for Wemby and his game, no idea why Pop was experimenting with Sochan as a point guard.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Tre Jones has been beneficial for Wemby and his game, no idea why Pop was experimenting with Sochan as a point guard.

Because that's what you do in a tank, you experiment. You put young guys outside of their comfort zone. It looks like we're finally doing that this season now that the trade deadline has passed.

[dckingsfan]

I think the Spurs are the one threat for him. His defensive shortcomings would be mitigated by Wemby and his brother already on the team.

I doubt it. Spurs have two picks in the top 10 in this year's draft. Pretty safe bet one of them is a pg and they have jones there as a backup.

Depends on ping pong balls but SA has usually been lucky. If they get lucky again and Toronto doesn't move up they will get one of Holland, Shepard or Castle along with a wing from their higher pick.

But your point is correct, Tyus isn't on their radar.

[nate33]

Wizards Questions
1. How much will Tyus Jones sign for?

I posted this a couple of days ago:

I suspect Tyus will be resigned, and I don't think it will cost too much. I think this Trade Deadline demonstrated that there isn't a huge demand out there for Tyus as a starter. People want him as a backup and aren't willing to break the bank to get him. I figure the best offer out there will be the MLE, and probably not for a full 4 years.

A 3-year MLE contract with 5% raises pays him $12.8, $13.5 and $14.1M over the next 3 years respectively for a total of $40.4M. I figure we can offer him a 3-year $42M deal and a starting role and that will beat all other offers. Also, a 3-year deal has his contract expire alongside Poole's (and Kuzma's if he lasts that long) which will likely set us up for a max free agent in 2027 to add to our developing rookie contract squad. Frontload the deal with 8% salary declines each year and it will look like this: $15.2M, $14.0M, $12.8M. In two years, that $12.8M salary will be just 80% of the MLE, which is equivalent to a $9.9M contract today. That should make him pretty tradeable.

I'd go 3/50M if we can get it declining.

I dunno. 3/50M would start at roughly $18M, and year 3 would still be roughly $15M. Does he have much trade value at that cost?There's also a substantial opportunity cost with the acquisition. Ignoring his salary, we will have a payroll of roughly $126M next summer, giving us $15M in raw cap room. What could be accomplished with that cap room as far as BOYD trades to relieve teams of bad salary in exchange for picks?

I like Tyus and I think he is a useful player, but the long term goal isn't to win a few extra games in the next two seasons, it's to build assets for 3-4 years down the road. I don't mind Tyus helping our team out in the short term and mentoring youngsters, but only if that fits within our primary goal of generating future assets. If he can't be signed to a contract that makes him a positive trade asset in the future, I'd probably look elsewhere for a better bargain.

[NYG]

I posted this a couple of days ago:

I suspect Tyus will be resigned, and I don't think it will cost too much. I think this Trade Deadline demonstrated that there isn't a huge demand out there for Tyus as a starter. People want him as a backup and aren't willing to break the bank to get him. I figure the best offer out there will be the MLE, and probably not for a full 4 years.

A 3-year MLE contract with 5% raises pays him $12.8, $13.5 and $14.1M over the next 3 years respectively for a total of $40.4M. I figure we can offer him a 3-year $42M deal and a starting role and that will beat all other offers. Also, a 3-year deal has his contract expire alongside Poole's (and Kuzma's if he lasts that long) which will likely set us up for a max free agent in 2027 to add to our developing rookie contract squad. Frontload the deal with 8% salary declines each year and it will look like this: $15.2M, $14.0M, $12.8M. In two years, that $12.8M salary will be just 80% of the MLE, which is equivalent to a $9.9M contract today. That should make him pretty tradeable.

I'd go 3/50M if we can get it declining.

I dunno. 3/50M would start at roughly $18M, and year 3 would still be roughly $15M. Does he have much trade value at that cost?There's also a substantial opportunity cost with the acquisition. Ignoring his salary, we will have a payroll of roughly $126M next summer, giving us $15M in raw cap room. What could be accomplished with that cap room as far as BOYD trades to relieve teams of bad salary in exchange for picks?

I like Tyus and I think he is a useful player, but the long term goal isn't to win a few extra games in the next two seasons, it's to build assets for 3-4 years down the road. I don't mind Tyus helping our team out in the short term and mentoring youngsters, but only if that fits within our primary goal of generating future assets. If he can't be signed to a contract that makes him a positive trade asset in the future, I'd probably look elsewhere for a better bargain.

I think the equivalent of slightly above the non-tax MLE as front-loaded and declining is the sweet spot.

Some team probably takes a shot on him for the non-tax MLE in this weak free agency class so I think slightly more keeps him.

[pcbothwel]

I'd go 3/50M if we can get it declining.

I dunno. 3/50M would start at roughly $18M, and year 3 would still be roughly $15M. Does he have much trade value at that cost?There's also a substantial opportunity cost with the acquisition. Ignoring his salary, we will have a payroll of roughly $126M next summer, giving us $15M in raw cap room. What could be accomplished with that cap room as far as BOYD trades to relieve teams of bad salary in exchange for picks?

I like Tyus and I think he is a useful player, but the long term goal isn't to win a few extra games in the next two seasons, it's to build assets for 3-4 years down the road. I don't mind Tyus helping our team out in the short term and mentoring youngsters, but only if that fits within our primary goal of generating future assets. If he can't be signed to a contract that makes him a positive trade asset in the future, I'd probably look elsewhere for a better bargain.

I think the equivalent of slightly above the non-tax MLE as front-loaded and declining is the sweet spot.

Some team probably takes a shot on him for the non-tax MLE in this weak free agency class so I think slightly more keeps him.

He signed a 2-year declining contract with a starting salary at 12% of the cap. Sorry to say, but I dont see him taking a discount from that. That would put him at a starting salary of 17M next year, or a 3/47M minimum.
15M in 26/27 if a steal when Wiggins/Poole/Herro are making 33M and MPJ is making 40M.
Tyus making Grant Williams/Strus money is still a plus.

And you while you could argue that we arent trying to win games, we do need a High IQ PG to lead the team in the half court so our young wings and big (Sarr?) get to actually play in an NBA caliber offense. Otherwise, they will not only get used to losing, but they will develop bad habits that will hurt us later on.

[penbeast0]

I think the Spurs are the one threat for him. His defensive shortcomings would be mitigated by Wemby and his brother already on the team.

At the same position, that would be a reason for me to consider elsewhere all things being anywhere close to equal.

[Rafael122]

I'm cautious about handing out contracts longer than 2 years. Who knows if the TV deals will be as good as projected, best to err on the side of caution.

[doclinkin]

Tre Jones has been beneficial for Wemby and his game, no idea why Pop was experimenting with Sochan as a point guard.

Because imagine the difficulty you would have defending a pass from a 6'10" to a 7'4" guy. Problem being Sochan was somehow unable to pass to Wemby, so it wasted his developmental minutes. But Pop has had success in the past with Boris Diaw initiating offense, or Pau as the point pivot. I would not be surprised if the Spurs have inquired about Deni. Long experience shows you should never doubt Pop. Whatever he tries tends to be the way the league goes 2 or 3 years down the line.

[nate33]

I dunno. 3/50M would start at roughly $18M, and year 3 would still be roughly $15M. Does he have much trade value at that cost?There's also a substantial opportunity cost with the acquisition. Ignoring his salary, we will have a payroll of roughly $126M next summer, giving us $15M in raw cap room. What could be accomplished with that cap room as far as BOYD trades to relieve teams of bad salary in exchange for picks?

I like Tyus and I think he is a useful player, but the long term goal isn't to win a few extra games in the next two seasons, it's to build assets for 3-4 years down the road. I don't mind Tyus helping our team out in the short term and mentoring youngsters, but only if that fits within our primary goal of generating future assets. If he can't be signed to a contract that makes him a positive trade asset in the future, I'd probably look elsewhere for a better bargain.

I think the equivalent of slightly above the non-tax MLE as front-loaded and declining is the sweet spot.

Some team probably takes a shot on him for the non-tax MLE in this weak free agency class so I think slightly more keeps him.

He signed a 2-year declining contract with a starting salary at 12% of the cap. Sorry to say, but I dont see him taking a discount from that. That would put him at a starting salary of 17M next year, or a 3/47M minimum.
15M in 26/27 if a steal when Wiggins/Poole/Herro are making 33M and MPJ is making 40M.
Tyus making Grant Williams/Strus money is still a plus.

And you while you could argue that we arent trying to win games, we do need a High IQ PG to lead the team in the half court so our young wings and big (Sarr?) get to actually play in an NBA caliber offense. Otherwise, they will not only get used to losing, but they will develop bad habits that will hurt us later on.

The only teams with cap room who conceivably need a PG are San Antonio and Orlando. If one of those guys pays Tyus 3/$50, then so be it. I'd go shopping in the bargain bin for guys like Fultz or Dennis Smith Jr. (and Butler too).

I'm just not that worried about loading up on veteran mentors - not at a premium price. It's more important to sign a useful guy on a cheap enough declining contract that he will be valuable as a trade asset 1 or 2 years down the road. There's no reason to fall in love with any one guy so much that we end up paying full price for him.

[nate33]

Tre Jones has been beneficial for Wemby and his game, no idea why Pop was experimenting with Sochan as a point guard.

Because imagine the difficulty you would have defending a pass from a 6'10" to a 7'4" guy. Problem being Sochan was somehow unable to pass to Wemby, so it wasted his developmental minutes. But Pop has had success in the past with Boris Diaw initiating offense, or Pau as the point pivot. I would not be surprised if the Spurs have inquired about Deni. Long experience shows you should never doubt Pop. Whatever he tries tends to be the way the league goes 2 or 3 years down the line.

Zach Lowe recently raved about how effective it was in Philly having Batum make entry passes to Embiid instead of Maxey.

[doclinkin]

Tre Jones has been beneficial for Wemby and his game, no idea why Pop was experimenting with Sochan as a point guard.

Because imagine the difficulty you would have defending a pass from a 6'10" to a 7'4" guy. Problem being Sochan was somehow unable to pass to Wemby, so it wasted his developmental minutes. But Pop has had success in the past with Boris Diaw initiating offense, or Pau as the point pivot. I would not be surprised if the Spurs have inquired about Deni. Long experience shows you should never doubt Pop. Whatever he tries tends to be the way the league goes 2 or 3 years down the line.

Zach Lowe recently raved about how effective it was in Philly having Batum make entry passes to Embiid instead of Maxey.

I recall 2-3 years ago scuttlebutt about Pop et al being interested in Kuzma. If he were in San Antonio I have no doubt they would have tried him in that role.

[The Consiglieri]

...Winger is so focused on the future that ...it makes following the team moot. There’s nothing to see....

This is certainly an understandable POV, but I don't share it all the same.

IMO, if we can see a lot of minutes from Omoruyi & Bilal, if Butler gets 15-20 minutes per game, if PBJ gets something close to that, if Johnny Davis gets regular minutes, & if Isaiah Livers sees the floor once he's healthy... if all or most of that transpires, & if Bagley gets the major opportunity he seems almost certain to get, then I'll be interested to watch the team no matter how lousy we are certain to be in the present tense sense of wins this season.

Right now, btw, we are at 14 players, meaning that we are going to be adding someone soon. Will we promote Butler to a regular contract (& then, obviously, add another 2-way player)? Will there be an interesting young guy who pops loose post-deadline? Or...?

But I can also allow that what they’re doing is a sham. It’s what’s allowed, I get it, they’re “smart“ to be doing it — but it’s so obvious and awful.

I'm a bit confused as to why you feel the way you do at the end there.

The reason to watch is the same reason that its ever been worthwhile to watch the last 40+ years. Watch the young players, hope for a miracle (player turns into a star) and hope for more miracles to come in the draft or via trade.

We act like this isn't what we've been watching since the early eighties. It's the same exact thing, the only difference is this time we actually have a plan, that might actually work, unlike the previous 40 some odd shams. I could care less if its obvious, ugly or awful, it's the only way to win in this ----ing league unless your LA or Miami, or NY (if they ever fix NY) and a few other cities, and can just peel off free agents like its nothing. As such, to actually be doing it properly, for once, w/someone potentially competent running it? I haven't seen that happen my entire life. It's a glorious thing. The misery I see is befuddling. It's like a redskins fan that missed the snyder years, and hated this past season? Really? This past season? When they finally did tanking right? For once, ever? It's a great thing, not a bad thing. The medicine we have to take isn't fair, it should be the morons that botched the 2019-2023 disaster that should be forced to drink it, but they've all been ---- canned, and the only people left to take it our us, and the players unlucky enough to be here for rock bottom, but at least they get paid millions to play a game, while we pay money, to watch them (or not) play it badly. It's unfortunate we have to suffer this, it really is. But we all know what's worse. 2019-2023 is worse. No plan, and total denial of reality. That is infinitely worse. This is so much better, even if it might suck in the moment for some. And yes, I freely admit it could go sideways anyway, like it may have for the nats (see a recent fangraphs article on the Nats build to nowhere), but at least there's hope. Other than the occasional superstud lottery draft like '92 or '03, I've rarely ever felt anything approximating hope as a Wiz fan. Now I do. Everyone else should too.

[payitforward]

Go Consiglieri !!

[badinage]

Of course. I’m with you. It’s … shrewd. Very shrewd.

I’ve wanted a real rebuild since … forever.

And no, I’m not frustrated with the pace of this. I mean, Christ: I’ve waited this long, I can wait a little longer. I know it’s going to be at least three more years, maybe four.

But at the same time that I say yes, it’s shrewd, and yes, I support it, I also say: it’s more than kinda making a mockery of things.

Is it asking too much for us all to acknowledge this? Is that asking for too much?

I know it’s not … practical.

I know that it’s not what we’d prefer, as fans, to focus on.

I know that many of us look at what IS in the world, and tend to operate (and make decisions) within those parameters; and therefore generally regard anything that exists outside those bounds as ridiculous/not worth considering.

But Jesus: telling the entire world that you’re going to lose, as they essentially have, and that you don’t care to compete, as they also essentially have — and not for one season, but likely for several seasons — is … something. At a minimum, it’s contrary to the spirit of sport; a violation of the basic fact of sports.

Again, is it permitted? Sure. Does the league sort of encourage it even? Oh, it does, it does. Does it behoove a team in the Wizards’s position to do it? Abso-fxcking-lutely.

But the fact that we’re doing it — that it’s shrewd to do it — just shows how wack the system is, and makes me question why I spend any time at all on all of this, when what I want most from a game that I use to escape from the world is not to be reminded that the world is broken and flawed and nonsensical.

[9 and 20]

This is certainly an understandable POV, but I don't share it all the same.

IMO, if we can see a lot of minutes from Omoruyi & Bilal, if Butler gets 15-20 minutes per game, if PBJ gets something close to that, if Johnny Davis gets regular minutes, & if Isaiah Livers sees the floor once he's healthy... if all or most of that transpires, & if Bagley gets the major opportunity he seems almost certain to get, then I'll be interested to watch the team no matter how lousy we are certain to be in the present tense sense of wins this season.

Right now, btw, we are at 14 players, meaning that we are going to be adding someone soon. Will we promote Butler to a regular contract (& then, obviously, add another 2-way player)? Will there be an interesting young guy who pops loose post-deadline? Or...?

But I can also allow that what they’re doing is a sham. It’s what’s allowed, I get it, they’re “smart“ to be doing it — but it’s so obvious and awful.

I'm a bit confused as to why you feel the way you do at the end there.

The reason to watch is the same reason that its ever been worthwhile to watch the last 40+ years. Watch the young players, hope for a miracle (player turns into a star) and hope for more miracles to come in the draft or via trade.

We act like this isn't what we've been watching since the early eighties. It's the same exact thing, the only difference is this time we actually have a plan, that might actually work, unlike the previous 40 some odd shams. I could care less if its obvious, ugly or awful, it's the only way to win in this ----ing league unless your LA or Miami, or NY (if they ever fix NY) and a few other cities, and can just peel off free agents like its nothing. As such, to actually be doing it properly, for once, w/someone potentially competent running it? I haven't seen that happen my entire life. It's a glorious thing. The misery I see is befuddling. It's like a redskins fan that missed the snyder years, and hated this past season? Really? This past season? When they finally did tanking right? For once, ever? It's a great thing, not a bad thing. The medicine we have to take isn't fair, it should be the morons that botched the 2019-2023 disaster that should be forced to drink it, but they've all been ---- canned, and the only people left to take it our us, and the players unlucky enough to be here for rock bottom, but at least they get paid millions to play a game, while we pay money, to watch them (or not) play it badly. It's unfortunate we have to suffer this, it really is. But we all know what's worse. 2019-2023 is worse. No plan, and total denial of reality. That is infinitely worse. This is so much better, even if it might suck in the moment for some. And yes, I freely admit it could go sideways anyway, like it may have for the nats (see a recent fangraphs article on the Nats build to nowhere), but at least there's hope. Other than the occasional superstud lottery draft like '92 or '03, I've rarely ever felt anything approximating hope as a Wiz fan. Now I do. Everyone else should too.

Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond, and WUS declaring victory in the wake, still chaps my butt. WWe finally got lucky and landed this dude's best friend after dropping in the lotto and he, against all odds, demands a trade to DC. All the hope in the world! And then we trade him for broken down Mitch Richmond because Mr. Mom and Pop himself Abe Pollin is afraid of a little weed. RIP Abe who was, along with JKC an original DC real one.

And WUS the GM begat WUJ the coach. Both turds in the otherwise high-class urinals in Skinny T's world class arena that he can't wait to ditch.

Had some hope for a while with Gil but Gerald Wallace put an end to that. And somehow John Wall slipped in a bathtub and everything since has been Jordan Poop. Every signing has become Lorenzo Williams or Ian Mahinmi. Every trade become Isaac Austin.

Time to lean into the suck for once.

[Tyrone Messby]

Yep we are finally in a true rebuild and this is likely the worst year of it. We have waited this long, what is another season or two more of this? Next team should be pretty exciting adding a top 5 pick to the team and letting the young guys run.