Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[Nivek]

On the bright side, I think the formulas I just made up could (with some minor tweaking) do a reasonably good job of approximating conventional wisdom.

[dlts20]

No, dlts, the lol may be on you, because names don't win games; numbers do (note: winner determined by final score -- nothing else).

Tell you what: here are what 4 point guards do per 40 minutes (they all play a lot of minutes; "40" equalizes). They're represented as colors. To encourage objectivity, you can assume that John Wall's not included. You tell me who's best.

Try not to look at a stat source to first find out who is who. Oh, and if you can't give me any idea of who's best, then maybe your assessment of Wall is just you programming your own imaginary TV show w/ the person you want?

Fouls:
3.6
2.6
3.0
3.3

TOs:
2.4
3.8
3.9
3.9

Steals:
1.9
2.2
1.8
3.1

Assists:
8.1
9.2
7.0
7.9

Offensive--Defensive Rebounds:
1--3.5
.6--3.8
.5--4.5
1.6--4.5

TS%:
.58
.51
.58
.49

Points:
17.6
21.1
21.5
20.0

Just rank them as best you can -- no blame no shame. That's what a scout or GM has to do after all.

youre missing my point. My point is that stats can tell you some things but it cant tell you everythhing because of different systems and roles. You can take the same guy and put him in a different system and his numbers could jump way up. One team might play straight halfcourt and another team might run all day and care lil about defense. Then you might have a guy who is the main guy on his team and has to set the table for everyone like Wall does because we have no one else who can beat you off the dribble. He also has to score himself for us to win while a guy on another team may get production because he plays in more of a team concept or is really like a 3rd or 4th option that teams dont really fear.

BTW, whats Walls numbers compared to other guys after his slow start. Thats another thing I dont pay attention to. I ripped Wall more than anyone because I felt he dominated the 2nd half of last year and came out this year with no aggression. Eveyone on here was acting like that was OK but I ripped him for it. He was basically just a good role player. Then he said he was going to be more aggressive because we were losing and thats when he took off.

Korver or these other guys arent goiing 22 & 9 on 45% shooting for a whole month like Wall. 3 straight 30plus games before that. I dont even get the arguments against it. Even guys like Isiah Thomas are great but people are coming in worried about Cousins & Gay 1st. People woerry about Teauge, Horrford, and Milsap 1st. Thats not the case with Wall, even in this crappy jump shooting system

[payitforward]

... names don't win games; numbers do (note: winner determined by final score -- nothing else).

Tell you what: here are what 4 point guards do per 40 minutes ...
Just rank them as best you can -- no blame no shame. That's what a scout or GM has to do after all.

youre missing my point. ...You can take the same guy and put him in a different system and his numbers could jump way up. ....

Ummm, could you give me one example of that happening to some "same guy" -- over a season not a few games? Just one example, could you please?

Not asking for you to show that it's some kind of real problem in player analysis by showing that it's typical. Just give me one solid case.

How about my 4 point guards? I take it that you can't rank my 4 at all. You have no idea how to rank them, do you?

But, you know what, it's not that you don't know what system they're in. Your problem is you can't rank them until you know who they are, right?

Come on, give it a try! I used up half my crayons putting in those colors. Tell me whether any of those guys are good, at least. Or are they bad? Are they about equally productive?

Or just tell me which one you think is the best -- at least tell me that! Or, instead, maybe it'd be easier to tell me which one is the worst! Can you at least do that?

Assume they are all playing in the same kind of system. Any kind you choose. Or, how do they rank in 2 different kinds of systems?

Can't do it, can you? Not even a little....

[20MexicanosIn1Van]

PGs definitively better than Wall:

Parker
Paul
Westbrook
Rondo
Curry

Wall is in the second tier with PGs like

Irving
Lowry
Conley
Isiah Thomas
Holiday
Bledsoe
Dragic
Deron Williams

[B-easy]

Weird time to bring up this thread because wall has been in a slump.

His January stats are 17/7 36% FG in 9 games. That's terrible, because of this slump his PER has dipped below 20.

[stevemcqueen1]

Rondo is not definitively better than Wall now. Rondo hasn't played in forever and he's never been able to score consistently like Wall.

Also Wall is better than every one of those PGs you list in your second tier. None of those PGs step onto a court with LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwyane Wade and end up being the best and most dominant player that night. Maybe Irving if you're only looking at offense but there is still the factor of him giving up too much the other way.

[dckingsfan]

I guess this is a regular season rankings... not a postseason ranking. Wall hasn't been in the playoffs yet, so I will give him an incomplete. Until he gets his team into the playoff - it doesn't really matter right?

Last year he was hurt - others have correctly omitted Rondo, Westbrook and Rose because they are injured - guess we have to do the same for Wall last year.

Let's see if Wall can get the Wizards into the playoffs and then judge the year by how the Wizards do in the playoffs. Watching lots of Spurs bball - you rarely see Parker f'up and cause the team to lose - John still does that. Same with Paul. Let's see if Wall can do that in the playoffs - if so, then he will have taken the step to becoming a top 5 PG.

So, in my mind Wall is still an incomplete - deeply hoping he can take that next step.

[DavoBirmingham]

Do you view him as a top 5 PG?

From the outside looking in, absolutely.

He's a more consistent jumpshot away from being a top 10-12 player in the NBA. And that appears to be developing.

He's blown Kyrie out of the water the last 12 months.

[20MexicanosIn1Van]

Rondo is not definitively better than Wall now. Rondo hasn't played in forever and he's never been able to score consistently like Wall.

Also Wall is better than every one of those PGs you list in your second tier. None of those PGs step onto a court with LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwyane Wade and end up being the best and most dominant player that night. Maybe Irving if you're only looking at offense but there is still the factor of him giving up too much the other way.

I think Conley and Lowry are better than Wall right now. Rondo (and similarly Rose) are just too hard to tell because of their injuries.

[GeeWiz]

John Wall needs to adjust to knowing when to drive or when to shoot. Its great his shot is improving, but he's gotta start balancing his natural driving skills and his improved jump shot. Then hell enter that top-3 area IMO.

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[WallToWall]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/nba-wiz ... rcus-shot/

Wall highlight.

[dlts20]

Wall back up to 43% shooting after that horrible 11 game start to the year and that recent bad stretch. Even with that he's still up to 43% and starting to play in Jan after a slow start like he did in December. Beast. Hopefully these guys stop killing his assist

[B-easy]

I haven't been able to watch any games the past 2 weeks, i would like to know know how wall has looked in terms of driving and shooting. Is he still taking many jumpers or is he starting to drive more?

[Brenice]

I haven't been able to watch any games the past 2 weeks, i would like to know know how wall has looked in terms of driving and shooting. Is he still taking many jumpers or is he starting to drive more?

If you haven't seen him in 2 weeks, you are missing out. He is playing at another level. His shooting is getting better and better. Beyond that, he's not settling for jumpers quite as much. He's playing to win, not just playing to be playing.

[nate33]

Over the last 5 games, Wall is averaging 24.8 points, 8.6 assists and 4.0 rebounds with a TS% of .602, an ORtg of 114, and a USG% of 30.0. And that stretch includes 2 games against Chicago and one against Miami.

[fishercob]

Over the last 5 games, Wall is averaging 24.8 points, 8.6 assists and 4.0 rebounds with a TS% of .602, an ORtg of 114, and a USG% of 30.0. And that stretch includes 2 games against Chicago and one against Miami.

Who are 2nd and 10th in the league in defensive efficiency, respectively.

Since his cold start -- the first 11 games of the season, John has an Ortg of 109 on 29% usage with a TS% of .553.

Over that span he's averaging 22 ppg, 8 apg, 4 rpg, 2 steals, 46% from the field and 34% from 3.

[tontoz]

Wall is shooting 37.5% from 3 this month. Here lately he has definitely been stepping up.

[nuposse04]

it is a shame the rest of the team isn't playing with his same competency and effort lately. Encouraging to see he is actually "legit" but he needs guys to be a bit more consistent. Way too many prolonged mental lapses with our guys.

[Dat2U]

Over the last 5 games, Wall is averaging 24.8 points, 8.6 assists and 4.0 rebounds with a TS% of .602, an ORtg of 114, and a USG% of 30.0. And that stretch includes 2 games against Chicago and one against Miami.

Who are 2nd and 10th in the league in defensive efficiency, respectively.

Since his cold start -- the first 11 games of the season, John has an Ortg of 109 on 29% usage with a TS% of .553.

Over that span he's averaging 22 ppg, 8 apg, 4 rpg, 2 steals, 46% from the field and 34% from 3.

And it still feels like he could be even better. People keep talking about his speed but he's also one of the biggest and strongest PGs in the league. He's physical mismatch on many nights at his position, as he learns to use his size in combination with his speed he's going to be a regular MVP candidate.

[Ruzious]

About his improvement, a play that struck me the other day was when he grabbed a loose ball 20 some feet from the basket and in the same motion shot the ball with perfect form and swished it. Last season, there was no chance he could do something like that. Gotta appreciate that he's put in the work, and it's paying off.