Political Roundtable Part IX

[nate33]

WWII taught us that racism is not a tenable basis for US culture.

There is a culture that will work in the U.S. It is based off the scientific method in the courtroom, separation of church and state in the classroom, tolerance for all religions, races, sexes, gender identity, respect for each other's rights, an understanding that the state serves the people and not the other way around.

Forcing everyone to adhere to the white male Christian cultural ideal will NOT work. It is based off of a lack of respect for non-white, non-male non-Christian people and is fundamentally opposed to the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

[Zonkerbl]

WWII taught us that racism is not a tenable basis for US culture.

There is a culture that will work in the U.S. It is based off the scientific method in the courtroom, separation of church and state in the classroom, tolerance for all religions, races, sexes, gender identity, respect for each other's rights, an understanding that the state serves the people and not the other way around.

Forcing everyone to adhere to the white male Christian cultural ideal will NOT work. It is based off of a lack of respect for non-white, non-male non-Christian people and is fundamentally opposed to the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

The backbone of the U.S.' economic success is that we embraced persecuted minorities. We are the beneficiary of centuries of racism and intolerance in Europe that lead to some of Europe's best and brightest fleeing their homelands to seek opportunity in the New World.

Make no mistake - we are powerful PRECISELY because of our diversity. We are successful EXACTLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT from Europe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-witte/nobel-laureates_b_2458128.html

[dckingsfan]

WWII taught us that racism is not a tenable basis for US culture.

There is a culture that will work in the U.S. It is based off the scientific method in the courtroom, separation of church and state in the classroom, tolerance for all religions, races, sexes, gender identity, respect for each other's rights, an understanding that the state serves the people and not the other way around.

Forcing everyone to adhere to the white male Christian cultural ideal will NOT work. It is based off of a lack of respect for non-white, non-male non-Christian people and is fundamentally opposed to the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

I would add that law is a set of precedents. Those precedents were rooted from English law or Common Law. So, there is a notion that when you come here you will adhere to the Common Law of our country and not "local culture laws".

I would disagree with those that want to usurp our current Common law precedents with something else - I think it would be highly untenable.

So yes, there should be a notion that if you want to be a citizen of the United States that you will abide by the laws of the United States. And, previous generations of immigrant came here because of our Common Law.

[Zonkerbl]

WWII taught us that racism is not a tenable basis for US culture.

There is a culture that will work in the U.S. It is based off the scientific method in the courtroom, separation of church and state in the classroom, tolerance for all religions, races, sexes, gender identity, respect for each other's rights, an understanding that the state serves the people and not the other way around.

Forcing everyone to adhere to the white male Christian cultural ideal will NOT work. It is based off of a lack of respect for non-white, non-male non-Christian people and is fundamentally opposed to the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

I would add that law is a set of precedents. Those precedents were rooted from English law or Common Law. So, there is a notion that when you come here you will adhere to the Common Law of our country and not "local culture laws".

I would disagree with those that want to usurp our current Common law precedents with something else - I think it would be highly untenable.

So yes, there should be a notion that if you want to be a citizen of the United States that you will abide by the laws of the United States.

But that's not what Nate is saying. Nate is saying throw away the Constitution and instead force all U.S. citizens to adhere to a white male Christian version of Sharia law.

[dckingsfan]

But that's not what Nate is saying. Nate is saying throw away the Constitution and instead force all U.S. citizens to adhere to a white male Christian version of Sharia law.

Okay, but that isn't how I read it... I read it as immigrants need to adhere to our Common Law (my words) as opposed to the unstated Sharia Law.

[nate33]

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

I would add that law is a set of precedents. Those precedents were rooted from English law or Common Law. So, there is a notion that when you come here you will adhere to the Common Law of our country and not "local culture laws".

I would disagree with those that want to usurp our current Common law precedents with something else - I think it would be highly untenable.

So yes, there should be a notion that if you want to be a citizen of the United States that you will abide by the laws of the United States.

But that's not what Nate is saying. Nate is saying throw away the Constitution and instead force all U.S. citizens to adhere to a white male Christian version of Sharia law.

I'm saying that British Common Law and the U.S. Constitution IS the Christian male version of Sharia Law. If you don't like it, GTFO.

[Zonkerbl]

I disagree with pretty much everything you've written here (surprise, surprise) but I'm not going to waste your time--or mine--debating this. I long ago accepted the fact that you and I have--and will probably always have--very different political/world views.

Fair enough. I can respect that.

There is no practical way to smoothly blend these wildly differing cultures. The U.S. understood this up until 1965. This notion that the U.S. was always a "proposition nation" that took in immigrants from all cultures is completely false. All immigration practices prior to 1965 favored only European immigrants, or limited all immigration. Since 1965, the pattern has changed. The end result is going to be disastrous, and has only been mitigated by massive deficit spending to appease the disparate groups. When the printing presses stop working and there is actual competition for limited resources, things will get ugly. What happens when Michigan stops paying for Detroit? What happens when California can no longer afford police? What happens when the welfare checks stop supporting Somalians in Maine and Minnesota? What happens when the poor whites of Appalachia stop getting welfare checks?

The bolded text is laughably, fantastically false.

[Zonkerbl]

If you favor treating one group of people differently from another group of people, you do not understand or support the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

You are right that we can put conditions on eligibility for citizenship. But all citizens are equal under the law. There isn't a separate set of rights for Muslims. Or Jews.

[DCZards]

Dub post.

[DCZards]

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

I would argue that the economic dominance of America benefited greatly from a mean-spirited and racist culture practiced by the nation's earliest European settlers. Not much to be proud of there. I'd also suggest that America's cultural influence has as much to do with its diversity and the contributions of other ethnic groups, especially African-Americans, as it has to do with the nation's European heritage.

So, yeah, go ahead and brag about what the USA has accomplished. I'm proud of our nation in many ways as well. But let's not overlook that this was and is still a deeply flawed and inequitable nation--both economically and socially. And our European heritage gets at least some of the blame for that.

[DCZards]

I disagree with pretty much everything you've written here (surprise, surprise) but I'm not going to waste your time--or mine--debating this. I long ago accepted the fact that you and I have--and will probably always have--very different political/world views.

Fair enough. I can respect that.

There is no practical way to smoothly blend these wildly differing cultures. The U.S. understood this up until 1965. This notion that the U.S. was always a "proposition nation" that took in immigrants from all cultures is completely false. All immigration practices prior to 1965 favored only European immigrants, or limited all immigration. Since 1965, the pattern has changed. The end result is going to be disastrous, and has only been mitigated by massive deficit spending to appease the disparate groups. When the printing presses stop working and there is actual competition for limited resources, things will get ugly. What happens when Michigan stops paying for Detroit? What happens when California can no longer afford police? What happens when the welfare checks stop supporting Somalians in Maine and Minnesota? What happens when the poor whites of Appalachia stop getting welfare checks?

The bolded text is laughably, fantastically false.

Hey, Zonk, your quote above gives me credit--or should I say blame--for something that Nate wrote...and not me. Please fix.

[nate33]

WWII taught us that racism is not a tenable basis for US culture.

There is a culture that will work in the U.S. It is based off the scientific method in the courtroom, separation of church and state in the classroom, tolerance for all religions, races, sexes, gender identity, respect for each other's rights, an understanding that the state serves the people and not the other way around.

Forcing everyone to adhere to the white male Christian cultural ideal will NOT work. It is based off of a lack of respect for non-white, non-male non-Christian people and is fundamentally opposed to the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

The backbone of the U.S.' economic success is that we embraced persecuted minorities. We are the beneficiary of centuries of racism and intolerance in Europe that lead to some of Europe's best and brightest fleeing their homelands to seek opportunity in the New World.

Make no mistake - we are powerful PRECISELY because of our diversity. We are successful EXACTLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT from Europe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-witte/nobel-laureates_b_2458128.html

I like that link. It says that 32% of American Nobel Laureates are foreign born. Except that nearly all of those foreign born Laureates are Europeans, (or Ashkenazi Jewish, who share European cultural heritage themselves). It bolsters my point that those of European cultural heritage are best suited for American culture.

That doesn't mean that some members of other cultures can't be admitted, but the number should be small so that they can be assimilated without dramatically disrupting the culture. And it's perfectly fine to notice which cultures seem to integrate better and bias our immigration policies accordingly. Certainly upper caste Indians, Koreans, Jews, and Filipinos seem to integrate well.

[nate33]

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

I would argue that the economic dominance of America benefited greatly from a mean-spirited and racist culture practiced by the nation's earliest European settlers. Not much to be proud of there. I'd also suggest that America's cultural influence has as much to do with its diversity and the contributions of other ethnic groups, especially African-Americans, as it has to do with the nation's European heritage.

So, yeah, go ahead and brag about what the USA has accomplished. I'm proud of our nation in many ways as well. But let's not overlook that this was and is still a deeply flawed and inequitable nation--both economically and socially. And our European heritage gets at least some of the blame for that.

This "deeply flawed and inequitable nation" is the number one destination for all of those minorities whom you seem to think get discriminated against so severely. The success of any minority group, including Africans, is much higher within the wickedly racist America than in their native homeland, so spare the preaching about racism. You want to see deeply flawed inequality? Go to any nation in Africa, Latin America or the Middle East (excluding Israel).

[nate33]

If you favor treating one group of people differently from another group of people, you do not understand or support the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

You are right that we can put conditions on eligibility for citizenship. But all citizens are equal under the law. There isn't a separate set of rights for Muslims. Or Jews.

Citizens are equal under the law. Prospective immigrants are not. The Constitution does not apply to them.

[Zonkerbl]

If you favor treating one group of people differently from another group of people, you do not understand or support the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

You are right that we can put conditions on eligibility for citizenship. But all citizens are equal under the law. There isn't a separate set of rights for Muslims. Or Jews.

Citizens are equal under the law. Prospective immigrants are not. The Constitution does not apply to them.

THAT IS WHAT I SAID.

Gat DAYUM you have some serious reading comprehension issues! I'm not talking about your immigration plank right now Nate! You said we cannot integrate Muslims into US culture. That is a fundamentally contra-Constitutional policy. We will accept some non-zero number of Muslim citizens no matter what the immigration policy is. Once they become citizens they are FULLY PROTECTED by the Constitution. You don't get to have one set of laws for Christians and a different set of laws for Jews. Or Muslims.

[nate33]

There is no practical way to smoothly blend these wildly differing cultures. The U.S. understood this up until 1965. This notion that the U.S. was always a "proposition nation" that took in immigrants from all cultures is completely false. All immigration practices prior to 1965 favored only European immigrants, or limited all immigration. Since 1965, the pattern has changed. The end result is going to be disastrous, and has only been mitigated by massive deficit spending to appease the disparate groups. When the printing presses stop working and there is actual competition for limited resources, things will get ugly. What happens when Michigan stops paying for Detroit? What happens when California can no longer afford police? What happens when the welfare checks stop supporting Somalians in Maine and Minnesota? What happens when the poor whites of Appalachia stop getting welfare checks?

The bolded text is laughably, fantastically false.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, there was no policy on immigration because there was no national country to make policy.

The 1790 Immigration Act restricted immigration to "free whites of good character". This was the law until 1870 when immigration was expanded to include those of African origin.

In 1875, several immigration restriction acts were imposed design to exclude most Asian immigrants (the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, for example). In the early 1900's, immigration shifted towards more members of Central and Southern Europe, and even that was seen as a bit too radical a change to the American culture. Several acts were imposed to try and maintain a mostly Northern and Western European immigrant base. The Immigration Act of 1924 created a quota system that restricted entry to 2 percent of the total number of people of each nationality already in America.

In 1960, the demographic composition of America was 85% white, 11% black, 3.5% Latino, and 0.5% other. So, clearly, you are "laughably, fantastically false" when you asserted that I was wrong about historical immigration policy. The historical immigration policy of America favored Europeans almost exclusively.

[nate33]

If you favor treating one group of people differently from another group of people, you do not understand or support the principles in the U.S. Constitution.

You are right that we can put conditions on eligibility for citizenship. But all citizens are equal under the law. There isn't a separate set of rights for Muslims. Or Jews.

Citizens are equal under the law. Prospective immigrants are not. The Constitution does not apply to them.

THAT IS WHAT I SAID.

Gat DAYUM you have some serious reading comprehension issues! I'm not talking about your immigration plank right now Nate! You said we cannot integrate Muslims into US culture. That is a fundamentally contra-Constitutional policy. We will accept some non-zero number of Muslim citizens no matter what the immigration policy is. Once they become citizens they are FULLY PROTECTED by the Constitution. You don't get to have one set of laws for Christians and a different set of laws for Jews. Or Muslims.

I said we should avoid importing any MORE Muslims. I never once called for the deportation of existing Muslim citizens, so I don't know why you even brought up the Constitution.

[DCZards]

This "deeply flawed and inequitable nation" is the number one destination for all of those minorities whom you seem to think get discriminated against so severely. The success of any minority group, including Africans, is much higher within the wickedly racist America than in their native homeland, so spare the preaching about racism. You want to see deeply flawed inequality? Go to any nation in Africa, Latin America or the Middle East (excluding Israel).

Oh, that's right. You don't believe that this nation's past (or present) racism has had any short- or long-term negative impact on its victims. My bad. I forgot who I was debating. You'd much rather point to the shortcomings/flaws of other countries than to hold the country that we actually live in accountable for its shortcoming/flaws.

Must be nice in those rose-colored glasses.

[AFM]

Some timely comedy for an intermission break!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQBBmyjW0s[/youtube]

[fishercob]

Except that is exactly what did work to lead America to be the most dominant economic, military and cultural nation in the world. This doesn't mean that a nation can't benefit from beneficial influences from other cultures, but I reject completely the notion that America's European heritage is of no greater value than the influence of any other culture. America's European heritage is the backbone of it's culture.

Show me one example of a "diverse" society that has ever persevered?

And I'm so tired of the "because Hitler" argument. "Because Hitler" doesn't mean that all European culture must be demographically eliminated. It merely means that Nazism must be eliminated. It has been.

The backbone of the U.S.' economic success is that we embraced persecuted minorities. We are the beneficiary of centuries of racism and intolerance in Europe that lead to some of Europe's best and brightest fleeing their homelands to seek opportunity in the New World.

Make no mistake - we are powerful PRECISELY because of our diversity. We are successful EXACTLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT from Europe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-witte/nobel-laureates_b_2458128.html

I like that link. It says that 32% of American Nobel Laureates are foreign born. Except that nearly all of those foreign born Laureates are Europeans, (or Ashkenazi Jewish, who share European cultural heritage themselves). It bolsters my point that those of European cultural heritage are best suited for American culture.

That doesn't mean that some members of other cultures can't be admitted, but the number should be small so that they can be assimilated without dramatically disrupting the culture. And it's perfectly fine to notice which cultures seem to integrate better and bias our immigration policies accordingly. Certainly upper caste Indians, Koreans, Jews, and Filipinos seem to integrate well.

Sorry, you can't claim Ashkenazi Jews' "Europeanism" as proof of your twisted worldview. `Europe has made clear to the Jews for centuries just "European" they are not. Nothing about Jewish success or exceptionalism is European. It's Jewish.