Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

[pcbothwel]

I’ve been thinking about a trade and wanted to get some Wiz fans’ opinions.

The premise is this: Brooks is Grunfeld’s guy. He is married to him because he’s seen what he’s done in OKC. Grunfeld believes that the locker room is the issue and that’s what needs to be solved first before thinking about anything else. Grunfeld thinks a group of guys could rub some of that OKC magic off on his guys.

These are the guys Grunfeld will trade for (and reasons):

Adams (he’s a pro’s pro; good team player; “the ultimate glue guy”; locked up through 2020-21)

Roberson (if healthy next year, can contribute on defense, help young guys pick it up on D from sideline; at worst, you can use a $10.7m to pivot)

Ferguson (1st round pick last year; has been really solid on defense and still has upside; his length bothers a lot of shooters, has the right idea on offense, 3-pt shot just isn’t consistent; probably just needs to get stronger; also a good kid and the type to be a pro’s pro)

—

We would get Beal + Mahinmi + Bryant l

We also send a Future FRP pick-swap (to throw a cherry on top).

—

Takes?


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Zero interest. Beal is more valuable than Adams by a decent margin. Bryant is a much better prospect than Ferguson, and Robersons value is about the same as Mahinmi's.
Roberson is 10M in sunk cost this year, and doubtful he'll be worth it next.

[getrichordie]

I’ve been thinking about a trade and wanted to get some Wiz fans’ opinions.

The premise is this: Brooks is Grunfeld’s guy. He is married to him because he’s seen what he’s done in OKC. Grunfeld believes that the locker room is the issue and that’s what needs to be solved first before thinking about anything else. Grunfeld thinks a group of guys could rub some of that OKC magic off on his guys.

These are the guys Grunfeld will trade for (and reasons):

Adams (he’s a pro’s pro; good team player; “the ultimate glue guy”; locked up through 2020-21)

Roberson (if healthy next year, can contribute on defense, help young guys pick it up on D from sideline; at worst, you can use a $10.7m to pivot)

Ferguson (1st round pick last year; has been really solid on defense and still has upside; his length bothers a lot of shooters, has the right idea on offense, 3-pt shot just isn’t consistent; probably just needs to get stronger; also a good kid and the type to be a pro’s pro)

—

We would get Beal + Mahinmi + Bryant l

We also send a Future FRP pick-swap (to throw a cherry on top).

—

Takes?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Zero interest. Beal is more valuable than Adams by a decent margin. Bryant is a much better prospect than Ferguson, and Robersons value is about the same as Mahinmi's.
Roberson is 10M in sunk cost this year, and doubtful he'll be worth it next.

It helps you tank this year and get a better pick. You guys have your own pick right?

What if we take Bryant out of it altogether? You guys just get Ferguson.

I’ve seen a lot of teams fall in love with bigs like Bryant only to realize that the value of the big man in the NBA is on the decline and has been for sometime now. I could see Grunfeld wanting to join the wing development “movement.”


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[pcbothwel]

Its just not close. We save no money, get no lotto pick, and get no real prospect. Its a non starter.
using the Hornets for example, we could trade Beal for Zeller & MKG along with a pick and thats a better package... and I would still say no.

[getrichordie]

Its just not close. We save no money, get no lotto pick, and get no real prospect. Its a non starter.
using the Hornets for example, we could trade Beal for Zeller & MKG along with a pick and thats a better package... and I would still say no.

Why do you need to save money if you are re-tooling? If Grunfeld doesn’t want to do a complete tank, it makes no sense to follow the “trade everyone for young players and picks” ideology.


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[Ruzious]

I’ve been thinking about a trade and wanted to get some Wiz fans’ opinions.

The premise is this: Brooks is Grunfeld’s guy. He is married to him because he’s seen what he’s done in OKC. Grunfeld believes that the locker room is the issue and that’s what needs to be solved first before thinking about anything else. Grunfeld thinks a group of guys could rub some of that OKC magic off on his guys.

These are the guys Grunfeld will trade for (and reasons):

Adams (he’s a pro’s pro; good team player; “the ultimate glue guy”; locked up through 2020-21)

Roberson (if healthy next year, can contribute on defense, help young guys pick it up on D from sideline; at worst, you can use a $10.7m to pivot)

Ferguson (1st round pick last year; has been really solid on defense and still has upside; his length bothers a lot of shooters, has the right idea on offense, 3-pt shot just isn’t consistent; probably just needs to get stronger; also a good kid and the type to be a pro’s pro)

—

We would get Beal + Mahinmi + Bryant l

We also send a Future FRP pick-swap (to throw a cherry on top).

—

Takes?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Zero interest. Beal is more valuable than Adams by a decent margin. Bryant is a much better prospect than Ferguson, and Robersons value is about the same as Mahinmi's.
Roberson is 10M in sunk cost this year, and doubtful he'll be worth it next.

I'd have no interest in Ferguson and Roberson, but I gotta disagree on Adams. He's gradually become a real good 2-way player and is a true enforcer who deters players from going to the hoop against OKC. And despite being one of the strongest players in the game, he runs real well and has good defensive quickness. And the production is there with a PER over 20 and a TS% over .60. Hard to believe, but he's just 25 years old. Otoh, has the game gone away from huge bigs like Adams?

[getrichordie]

I’ve been thinking about a trade and wanted to get some Wiz fans’ opinions.

The premise is this: Brooks is Grunfeld’s guy. He is married to him because he’s seen what he’s done in OKC. Grunfeld believes that the locker room is the issue and that’s what needs to be solved first before thinking about anything else. Grunfeld thinks a group of guys could rub some of that OKC magic off on his guys.

These are the guys Grunfeld will trade for (and reasons):

Adams (he’s a pro’s pro; good team player; “the ultimate glue guy”; locked up through 2020-21)

Roberson (if healthy next year, can contribute on defense, help young guys pick it up on D from sideline; at worst, you can use a $10.7m to pivot)

Ferguson (1st round pick last year; has been really solid on defense and still has upside; his length bothers a lot of shooters, has the right idea on offense, 3-pt shot just isn’t consistent; probably just needs to get stronger; also a good kid and the type to be a pro’s pro)

—

We would get Beal + Mahinmi + Bryant l

We also send a Future FRP pick-swap (to throw a cherry on top).

—

Takes?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Zero interest. Beal is more valuable than Adams by a decent margin. Bryant is a much better prospect than Ferguson, and Robersons value is about the same as Mahinmi's.
Roberson is 10M in sunk cost this year, and doubtful he'll be worth it next.

I'd have no interest in Ferguson and Roberson, but I gotta disagree on Adams. He's gradually become a real good 2-way player and is a true enforcer who deters players from going to the hoop against OKC. And despite being one of the strongest players in the game, he runs real well and has good defensive quickness. And the production is there with a PER over 20 and a TS% over .60. Hard to believe, but he's just 25 years old. Otoh, has the game gone away from huge bigs like Adams?

I don’t think the game has gone away from bigs yet. It’s just they are not as valued as much as wings. Grunfeld probably isn’t as forward thinking as Presti which is why I think he will take this trade. But realistically, if you want to reset your culture and stay competitive, I’m not sure there is a better trade for Beal out there. I’m sure in a vacuum someone might offer more, but gotta think about that culture.


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[payitforward]

...Oubre and Green for Chriss, Clark, and a lotto protected 1st. ....

Thing is... getting back a R1 pick for Oubre strikes me as very unlikely.

I could be wrong, but the way it looks to me is that if it's a given that we are not going to be able to re-sign Kelly Oubre, then anything we get for him that kicks the can down the road, anything at all, is a net gain for us.

That's obvious, right?

Now, I think we can assume that every other GM in the league understands this -- & also is aware of our guaranteed salaries going forward. Aware, that is, that we aren't going to be able to re-sign Oubre.

Hence, every other GM in the league knows that they don't have to give us much for Kelly Oubre. Not much at all.

Gary Clark & a R2 pick is a net gain. The undrafted Clark alone is a net gain. A R2 pick in 2023 is better than simply letting him walk for nothing.

The only other factor I can think of that would change this is competition among those GMs -- among those, that is, who want Oubre on their teams. That competition is the only thing that raises the price for Kelly above an absolute minimum. But, Kelly is in his 4th year in the league. He's played 5100 minutes & hasn't yet developed into a valuable player. So... I can't see any intense competition for him as likely.

Now, it's also true that GMs are a club & don't like to embarrass one another. So, there'd be some hand-waving in any deal so that it's not obvious that we just p#ssed away a R1 pick -- think back to the deal that moved Vesely for an example. Or the deal that moved Nicholson (i.e. a R1 pick for... nothing at all -- but it looked like we were getting something).

I hope I'm wrong....

You're wrong in your thinking process because you're not considering Houston's situation - even though I laid it out for you, AND because those other teams have their own situations to consider. The Wizards situation is just one in 30 situations.

Quite possible. But, doesn't that imply that Morey would somehow need to do that -- presumably to beat a competitor's offer for Oubre?

I find it hard to believe that a guy taken 15th 4 years ago, who has developed as little as KO, would bring that rich an offer.

You're also probably wrong in evaluating the Wiz situation. The Wiz most likely WANT to keep him in a mis-guided attempt to make a difference in the playoffs and in an attempt to save money next season by simply letting his contract expire.

You may well be 100% right! Who can plumb the depths of Ernie's mind? I'd be thrilled if we got Chriss, Clark & a protected R1 pick! But, of course I'd rather get Gary Clark than our "...simply letting his contract expire."

[pcbothwel]

Ruz... I'll take Zeller for 3/44 over Adams at 3/88 (Literally double the price) all day and twice on Sunday. I really like Adams, but not at that salary and giving up Beal.

[pcbothwel]

Its just not close. We save no money, get no lotto pick, and get no real prospect. Its a non starter.
using the Hornets for example, we could trade Beal for Zeller & MKG along with a pick and thats a better package... and I would still say no.

Why do you need to save money if you are re-tooling? If Grunfeld doesn’t want to do a complete tank, it makes no sense to follow the “trade everyone for young players and picks” ideology.


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We are in the repeater tax as of now. We need to get and immediately if we want to re-tool in any way.
The only way we dont NEED to cut salary is if we do a COMPLETE tear down that puts us out of tax for 3-4 years.

[getrichordie]

Its just not close. We save no money, get no lotto pick, and get no real prospect. Its a non starter.
using the Hornets for example, we could trade Beal for Zeller & MKG along with a pick and thats a better package... and I would still say no.

Let me get this straight.

You prefer this package:

Zeller + MKG + CHA 1st (assuming 2019)

...

over this package?

Adams + Ferguson + Roberson + Future FRP swap?

And you get to dump Mahinmi’s money!



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[getrichordie]

Its just not close. We save no money, get no lotto pick, and get no real prospect. Its a non starter.
using the Hornets for example, we could trade Beal for Zeller & MKG along with a pick and thats a better package... and I would still say no.

Why do you need to save money if you are re-tooling? If Grunfeld doesn’t want to do a complete tank, it makes no sense to follow the “trade everyone for young players and picks” ideology.


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We are in the repeater tax as of now. We need to get and immediately if we want to re-tool in any way.
The only way we dont NEED to cut salary is if we do a COMPLETE tear down that puts us out of tax for 3-4 years.

Couldn’t have Grunfeld got out of this earlier if he wanted to? It seems to me he is committed. Really strange to extend Wall and spend all of this money and suddenly decide you want to get rid of all that money. Furthermore, you don’t gain much value (if any at all) on the basketball side of things by getting off of money. If anything, at best, you come out neutral. Most likely, you lose value. I get the feeling that the Wizards franchise cannot afford another period of prolonged dullness and mediocrity, and most importantly, un-watchability.


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[payitforward]

I’ve been thinking about a trade and wanted to get some Wiz fans’ opinions.

The premise is this: Brooks is Grunfeld’s guy. He is married to him because he’s seen what he’s done in OKC. Grunfeld believes that the locker room is the issue and that’s what needs to be solved first before thinking about anything else. Grunfeld thinks a group of guys could rub some of that OKC magic off on his guys.

These are the guys Grunfeld will trade for (and reasons):

Adams (he’s a pro’s pro; good team player; “the ultimate glue guy”; locked up through 2020-21)

Roberson (if healthy next year, can contribute on defense, help young guys pick it up on D from sideline; at worst, you can use a $10.7m to pivot)

Ferguson (1st round pick last year; has been really solid on defense and still has upside; his length bothers a lot of shooters, has the right idea on offense, 3-pt shot just isn’t consistent; probably just needs to get stronger; also a good kid and the type to be a pro’s pro)

—

We would get Beal + Mahinmi + Bryant l

We also send a Future FRP pick-swap (to throw a cherry on top).

—

Takes?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Zero interest. Beal is more valuable than Adams by a decent margin. Bryant is a much better prospect than Ferguson, and Robersons value is about the same as Mahinmi's.
Roberson is 10M in sunk cost this year, and doubtful he'll be worth it next.

It helps you tank this year and get a better pick. You guys have your own pick right?

What if we take Bryant out of it altogether? You guys just get Ferguson.

I’ve seen a lot of teams fall in love with bigs like Bryant only to realize that the value of the big man in the NBA is on the decline and has been for sometime now. I could see Grunfeld wanting to join the wing development “movement.”

Which is why you want to send us a big (Adams) for a wing (Beal)?

You guys are going to have $151m in 11 players next year (Noel will opt out). I can see why you might be looking for something that would push you over the top this year.

Adams is a terrific player, but he's not the kind of big we'd be likely to target. Ferguson/Roberson are of no interest. Beal needs to bring us more future-oriented value than you can supply. Sorry.

Congratulations on picking up Hamidou Diallo after our wild swing on Issuf Sanon!

[pcbothwel]

Its just not close. We save no money, get no lotto pick, and get no real prospect. Its a non starter.
using the Hornets for example, we could trade Beal for Zeller & MKG along with a pick and thats a better package... and I would still say no.

Let me get this straight.

You prefer this package:

Zeller + MKG + CHA 1st (assuming 2019)

...

over this package?

Adams + Ferguson + Roberson + Future FRP swap?

And you get to dump Mahinmi’s money!



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Yes. Your pick swap means nothing if your OKC is better than us for the next 3-4 years. I would say Zeller + MKG = Adams + Roberson at worst... But the 2019 pick (Probably around 16-18) is clearly more valuable than Ferguson.

That said, i wouldnt accept either trade. My minimum trade with Charlotte is Zeller, Lamb, Bridges... and thats just to get a convo going. Otherwise, We'll wait until the summer when the market is in full effect.

[getrichordie]

Zero interest. Beal is more valuable than Adams by a decent margin. Bryant is a much better prospect than Ferguson, and Robersons value is about the same as Mahinmi's.
Roberson is 10M in sunk cost this year, and doubtful he'll be worth it next.

It helps you tank this year and get a better pick. You guys have your own pick right?

What if we take Bryant out of it altogether? You guys just get Ferguson.

I’ve seen a lot of teams fall in love with bigs like Bryant only to realize that the value of the big man in the NBA is on the decline and has been for sometime now. I could see Grunfeld wanting to join the wing development “movement.”

Which is why you want to send us a big (Adams) for a wing (Beal)?

You guys are going to have $151m in 11 players next year (Noel will opt out). I can see why you might be looking for something that would push you over the top this year.

Adams is a terrific player, but he's not the kind of big we'd be likely to target. Ferguson/Roberson are of no interest. Beal needs to bring us more future-oriented value than you can supply. Sorry.

Congratulations on picking up Hamidou Diallo after our wild swing on Issuf Sanon!

Fair enough. Can you give me an example of what kind of move Grunfeld should make?


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[pcbothwel]

Why do you need to save money if you are re-tooling? If Grunfeld doesn’t want to do a complete tank, it makes no sense to follow the “trade everyone for young players and picks” ideology.


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We are in the repeater tax as of now. We need to get and immediately if we want to re-tool in any way.
The only way we dont NEED to cut salary is if we do a COMPLETE tear down that puts us out of tax for 3-4 years.

Couldn’t have Grunfeld got out of this earlier if he wanted to? It seems to me he is committed. Really strange to extend Wall and spend all of this money and suddenly decide you want to get rid of all that money. Furthermore, you don’t gain much value (if any at all) on the basketball side of things by getting off of money. If anything, at best, you come out neutral. Most likely, you lose value. I get the feeling that the Wizards franchise cannot afford another period of prolonged dullness and mediocrity, and most importantly, un-watchability.


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EG is a bad GM and Brooks is a bad coach... combine that with an out of touch and sometimes delusional owner... Boom. There you have it.
They committed to this team thinking a healthy Wall and Prime Beal, Otto, Sato, and Oubre would be a top 3 team in the East.

Im not sure what you dont understand about the luxury tax. You cannot afford to pay the repeater tax unless you are a dynasty, or Ballmer. Its simply too punitive.
I cant come on this board and expect people to take my opinions seriously if I talk about my team as if Im playing 2k. You cant ignore the business/financial environment and expect people to take you seriously. Hence my appreciation for our financial constraints.
Of all people, and OKC fan should appreciate that with the Harden trade as well as the Melo trade. Both were done with reducing salary in mind.

[Ruzious]

Thing is... getting back a R1 pick for Oubre strikes me as very unlikely.

I could be wrong, but the way it looks to me is that if it's a given that we are not going to be able to re-sign Kelly Oubre, then anything we get for him that kicks the can down the road, anything at all, is a net gain for us.

That's obvious, right?

Now, I think we can assume that every other GM in the league understands this -- & also is aware of our guaranteed salaries going forward. Aware, that is, that we aren't going to be able to re-sign Oubre.

Hence, every other GM in the league knows that they don't have to give us much for Kelly Oubre. Not much at all.

Gary Clark & a R2 pick is a net gain. The undrafted Clark alone is a net gain. A R2 pick in 2023 is better than simply letting him walk for nothing.

The only other factor I can think of that would change this is competition among those GMs -- among those, that is, who want Oubre on their teams. That competition is the only thing that raises the price for Kelly above an absolute minimum. But, Kelly is in his 4th year in the league. He's played 5100 minutes & hasn't yet developed into a valuable player. So... I can't see any intense competition for him as likely.

Now, it's also true that GMs are a club & don't like to embarrass one another. So, there'd be some hand-waving in any deal so that it's not obvious that we just p#ssed away a R1 pick -- think back to the deal that moved Vesely for an example. Or the deal that moved Nicholson (i.e. a R1 pick for... nothing at all -- but it looked like we were getting something).

I hope I'm wrong....

You're wrong in your thinking process because you're not considering Houston's situation - even though I laid it out for you, AND because those other teams have their own situations to consider. The Wizards situation is just one in 30 situations.

Quite possible. But, doesn't that imply that Morey would somehow need to do that -- presumably to beat a competitor's offer for Oubre?

I find it hard to believe that a guy taken 15th 4 years ago, who has developed as little as KO, would bring that rich an offer.

You're also probably wrong in evaluating the Wiz situation. The Wiz most likely WANT to keep him in a mis-guided attempt to make a difference in the playoffs and in an attempt to save money next season by simply letting his contract expire.

You may well be 100% right! Who can plumb the depths of Ernie's mind? I'd be thrilled if we got Chriss, Clark & a protected R1 pick! But, of course I'd rather get Gary Clark than our "...simply letting his contract expire."

PIF, you do uderstand that Chriss and Clark play zero minutes for Houston now, right? They are trying to win now, because they have 2 of the greatest guards ever... on their roster - and a great 3rd guard and a high quality center. They don't have the forwards. Green and Oubre would at least give them quality depth at both forward positions - which they NEED. And their need... kinda matters to them. Don't ya think? Put it this way. If you had Paul and Harden... that's Paul and Harden... Paul and Harden along with Gordon and Capella, wouldn't you like... make some effort to try to win NOW? You might have heard of those guys... Paul and Harden. They're like... kinda all-time greats. Does that resonate at all with you?

[getrichordie]

We are in the repeater tax as of now. We need to get and immediately if we want to re-tool in any way.
The only way we dont NEED to cut salary is if we do a COMPLETE tear down that puts us out of tax for 3-4 years.

Couldn’t have Grunfeld got out of this earlier if he wanted to? It seems to me he is committed. Really strange to extend Wall and spend all of this money and suddenly decide you want to get rid of all that money. Furthermore, you don’t gain much value (if any at all) on the basketball side of things by getting off of money. If anything, at best, you come out neutral. Most likely, you lose value. I get the feeling that the Wizards franchise cannot afford another period of prolonged dullness and mediocrity, and most importantly, un-watchability.


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EG is a bad GM and Brooks is a bad coach... combine that with an out of touch and sometimes delusional owner... Boom. There you have it.
They committed to this team thinking a healthy Wall and Prime Beal, Otto, Sato, and Oubre would be a top 3 team in the East.

Im not sure what you dont understand about the luxury tax. You cannot afford to pay the repeater tax unless you are a dynasty, or Ballmer. Its simply too punitive.
I cant come on this board and expect people to take my opinions seriously if I talk about my team as if Im playing 2k. You cant ignore the business/financial environment and expect people to take you seriously. Hence my appreciation for our financial constraints.
Of all people, and OKC fan should appreciate that with the Harden trade as well as the Melo trade. Both were done with reducing salary in mind.

You can surely trade Porter for an expiring + some value right? Wall is likely going to be un-tradable so you build around Wall and Adams and let Porter bring back some guys who can play in between.

New Orleans is interested in Porter right? Sacramento is too. You could probably get some nice assets from Sacramento and save money.

So a second trade would look like something like this:

Koufos + Randolph + Bjelica + filler (Mason + Jackson?)

for

Otto Porter Jr. + filler (Satoransky?) + whichever picks

—

Wall/Rivers/Mason
Ferguson/Rivers
Oubre/Brown/Jackson
Morris/Bjelica/White
Adams/Howard




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[80sballboy]

Read on Twitter

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[payitforward]

Fair enough. Can you give me an example of what kind of move Grunfeld should make?

Absolutely!

Spoiler:

He should quit. He should retire. If he doesn't like those options, he should ask Ted Leonsis to fire him.

Ernie Grunfeld is one of the worst GMs (more like a BM, actually) in the last 20 years of the NBA.

In short, the Wizards should make no trades, make no moves of any kind until he has departed.

See what I mean?

[payitforward]

PIF, you do uderstand that Chriss and Clark play zero minutes for Houston now, right? They are trying to win now, because they have 2 of the greatest guards ever... on their roster - and a great 3rd guard and a high quality center. They don't have the forwards. Green and Oubre would at least give them quality depth at both forward positions - which they NEED. And their need... kinda matters to them. Don't ya think? Put it this way. If you had Paul and Harden... that's Paul and Harden... Paul and Harden along with Gordon and Capella, wouldn't you like... make some effort to try to win NOW? You might have heard of those guys... Paul and Harden. They're like... kinda all-time greats. Does that resonate at all with you?

Is that President Harding, Ruz? RuPaul?

Ruz, I don't mean to correct you; it's likely not to come off right, if you know what I mean, & I don't want you to take offense -- but there's only one "l" in "Capela," ok? Get it right, man!

Actually, after their 5 starters & Gordon as their 6th man, Gary Clark has the most minutes on the team -- which may simply underline your point!

Plus, & this too is in support of your idea, they really lack trade assets. Clark might be most valuable guys they could include in a trade (again, leaving out the starters & Gordon). Given that Nene, Gerald Green, Danuel House, Zhou Qi, Hartenstein, M. C-W, Chriss & Carmelo are individually & in any combination just about valueless, you are right.

That's why when I said I'd take Clark for Oubre rather than just let him expire, it was really that I was being kind. Kind to Darryl Morey -- how did that smart guy create this mess!?!?

In short, aside from whatever small value Clark may have, they really don't have anything to trade other than picks!

But... if they are going to use a R1 pick, my sense is that they can do better than Kelly Oubre. Not the Kelly Oubre of last night's win over the Knicks! But the Kelly Oubre of this season so far & of his career so far. Is that where we differ? In our estimation of Oubre's NBA career so far?

Of course, that's kind of a generalized statement on my part -- that they can do better than Oubre for a R1 pick. I don't actually have anyone in mind for them to target. For which reason, & on mature reconsideration, I will change my stance: you are not as wrong as I thought you were.

Lets try to get a R1 pick out of Houston for KO. & Gary Clark too, why not!?