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2020 Draft - Part II

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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#41 » by Dark Faze » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:12 pm

nate33 wrote:The only way I see Bryant being traded is if Okongwu becomes legitimately as good as Adebayo, leaving less than 16 minutes a game for Bryant. But that's going to take a couple of years, if it happens at all. As long as there are 24+ minutes a night available for Bryant, he's staying.


I think you're selling Bryant a bit short. Bryant is only 23 with only a couple of serious years of development in the NBA and his numbers are already quite good. I could easily see teams offering a late 1st given his value.

It's not that I want to trade Bryant, it's that I feel it's a requirement to have a reputable defender on the roster at C. Okongwu/Achiuwa may not be that in year 1 or year 2. If we don't have defensive option at C on the roster then the season is going to go badly. I'm not trying to go all in on a win now solution but I think there's a way to build for the future without constructing the team in such a way where winning in the current is highly unlikely.

WizarDynasty wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:He's an SG/SF. Reach isn't everything--90% of defense is effort, being in the right spot, and being quicker to said spot faster than the offensive player, all things which he can excel at.

If you're 6'6 with great lateral speed and great strength then you can guard 3's even with t-rex arms imo.

Yes staying in front of someone helps, but if they can rise and shoot and you aren't long enough to contest, then you are basically relying on the person not having shooting ability. If am drafting a player on their defensive ability, they better have a dimension that can't be taught which is standing reach and excellent defensive movement. I am not drafting a undersized 8'4 standing reach guy to be my full time starter guarding small forwards with a lottery pick. Maybe late in the 1st, but definitely not an entire losing season just to be bring in a guy that doesn't allow me to challenge 3 pointers and post shots without leaving his feet. That's teh real issue with Okoro. He has explosive legs, he just doesn't have that broom for an an arm that you need to throw out at defender without leaving your feet. He is going to have to "always" leave his feet to challenge a shot.
Once you leave your feet, you can't recover.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of wings imo are not going to attempt to shoot over a near perfectly positioned player unless the shot clock is close to zero because its a bad shot. You can contest a shot without a high likely hood of blocking it because your length in combination with positioning can still be enough to augment the shooting form/motion of the shot. Now if the height/length difference is insane, like a PG switching onto a 6'8 wing or higher, then that's another story, but even then do you want Duncan Robinson attempting to iso Kyle Lowry or Fred Van Vleet?
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#42 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:21 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:He's an SG/SF. Reach isn't everything--90% of defense is effort, being in the right spot, and being quicker to said spot faster than the offensive player, all things which he can excel at.

If you're 6'6 with great lateral speed and great strength then you can guard 3's even with t-rex arms imo.

Defense is about being able to contest a shot without leaving your feet. If you aren't long enough to bother someone shot out on the perimeter, then you are only playing pretend defense.

Yes staying in front of someone helps, but if they can rise and shoot and you aren't long enough to contest, then you are basically relying on the person not having shooting ability. If am drafting a player on their defensive ability, they better have a dimension that can't be taught which is standing reach and excellent defensive movement. I am not drafting a undersized 8'4 standing reach guy to be my full time starter guarding small forwards with a lottery pick. Maybe late in the 1st, but definitely not an entire losing season just to be bring in a guy that doesn't allow me to challenge 3 pointers and post shots without leaving his feet. That's teh real issue with Okoro. He has explosive legs, he just doesn't have that broom for an an arm that you need to throw out at defender without leaving your feet. He is going to have to "always" leave his feet to challenge a shot.
Once you leave your feet, you can't recover.

Lu Dort has an 8'-3.5" standing reach, yet played some of the best defense I've ever seen anyone play on Harden - particularly for a rookie. Kyle Lowry is 6-0 tall and has a wingspan no larger than 6-3, if that; yet he is one of the best defensive PG's in the league.

It's possible to play position defense by crowding into a player, bumping his body as he shoots, and just being an overall pest without having great height or wingspan. Length helps, but there is more than one way to defend.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#43 » by pcbothwel » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:24 pm

queridiculo wrote:Jalen Smith, I am telling you somebody is going to be ecstatic about adding him to their roster.

He's got a narrow base, so I could see him struggle to bulk up, but the way the game is these days you don't need him being able to bang with big body's all game long.


He's going to NOP... Book it
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#44 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:25 pm

Dark Faze wrote:
nate33 wrote:The only way I see Bryant being traded is if Okongwu becomes legitimately as good as Adebayo, leaving less than 16 minutes a game for Bryant. But that's going to take a couple of years, if it happens at all. As long as there are 24+ minutes a night available for Bryant, he's staying.


I think you're selling Bryant a bit short. Bryant is only 23 with only a couple of serious years of development in the NBA and his numbers are already quite good. I could easily see teams offering a late 1st given his value.

It's not that I want to trade Bryant, it's that I feel it's a requirement to have a reputable defender on the roster at C. Okongwu/Achiuwa may not be that in year 1 or year 2. If we don't have defensive option at C on the roster then the season is going to go badly. I'm not trying to go all in on a win now solution but I think there's a way to build for the future without constructing the team in such a way where winning in the current is highly unlikely.

I don't think teams will offer value for Bryant for the same reason you don't think we can win with him. He must prove he can defend before he has value.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#45 » by Frichuela » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:30 pm

Dark Faze wrote:I want a wing--either Okoro or Nesmith. I have belief that Okoro can get a lot better. One thing I like about him is how eager he is to drive--but beyond that he has great handle, elite first step, and maybe most importantly he can pass very well. Those things can really help the offense be far less predictable and we need a bulldog personality badly.

I think he can get his 3pt shot to a respectable area. I like the big man depth in the 2nd round and in free agency.

Wall / Smith
Beal / Brown / Matthews
Okoro / Bonga
Rui / Bertans
Bryant / Noel / Paul Reed?

I'm not against a big like Achiuwa or Okongwu, but Bryant is either the guy or he isn't. If he isn't I'd prefer to move him while his value is still high in order to get another first rounder this year and begin development of whoever is drafted.


If Okongwu is not there at #9, I am also quite intrigued with Okoro (if available).

The prospect of trading down is also out there, but you never know if feasible after all. Boston is the ideal fit but their GM is difficult in negotiations...
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#46 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:38 pm

nate33 wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:He's an SG/SF. Reach isn't everything--90% of defense is effort, being in the right spot, and being quicker to said spot faster than the offensive player, all things which he can excel at.

If you're 6'6 with great lateral speed and great strength then you can guard 3's even with t-rex arms imo.

Defense is about being able to contest a shot without leaving your feet. If you aren't long enough to bother someone shot out on the perimeter, then you are only playing pretend defense.

Yes staying in front of someone helps, but if they can rise and shoot and you aren't long enough to contest, then you are basically relying on the person not having shooting ability. If am drafting a player on their defensive ability, they better have a dimension that can't be taught which is standing reach and excellent defensive movement. I am not drafting a undersized 8'4 standing reach guy to be my full time starter guarding small forwards with a lottery pick. Maybe late in the 1st, but definitely not an entire losing season just to be bring in a guy that doesn't allow me to challenge 3 pointers and post shots without leaving his feet. That's teh real issue with Okoro. He has explosive legs, he just doesn't have that broom for an an arm that you need to throw out at defender without leaving your feet. He is going to have to "always" leave his feet to challenge a shot.
Once you leave your feet, you can't recover.

Lu Dort has an 8'-3.5" standing reach, yet played some of the best defense I've ever seen anyone play on Harden - particularly for a rookie. Kyle Lowry is 6-0 tall and has a wingspan no larger than 6-3, if that; yet he is one of the best defensive PG's in the league.

It's possible to play position defense by crowding into a player, bumping his body as he shoots, and just being an overall pest without having great height or wingspan. Length helps, but there is more than one way to defend.


Gimmicks work temporarily, like a fake field goal. Crowding is a gimmick that is subject to fouls called by the refs. Bumping a player is a foul that you hope the ref does not call. I highly doubt anyone with a poor standing reach is going to bother harden longterm. He was only bothered due to shock value like a fake field goal. It's very hard to adjust to someone with superior standing reach. It's like trying to dunk on a 12 foot rim versus a 10 foot rim. Sure there are guys that can do it, but it's get siginficantly harder and the guy with the longer reach who has same elite defensive footwork is going to much better than another guy with elite defensive footwork but below average standing reach. But once the offense expects it, and they get hip to what you are doing--crowding..taking away their dominant hand...whatever, then the gimmick doesn't work any more.
There is no way to prepare for a player with elite standing reach and footwork. That's why you build your team with these guys.
Having a long reach is a permanent advantage that can't be countered. You build your team with permanent advantages. Never build your team with the idea that you install gimmicks to cover their weakness. Having a significant standing reach is like to equal fighters and one is allowed to put on brass knuckles. Elite standing reach is like Brass Knuckles. It's a permanent advantage that is felt on every shot challenge. You might be able to withstand a few blows but each blow creates massive damage. that's what standing reach with elite movement skills.
The draft is your only chance of getting this type of player. You are never going to get an elite standing reach guy with elite movement skills in free agency. Teams don't let them go unless they are on the tail end of their careers.

and harden has an 8'8 standing reach. Probably a lil higher now since he was 20 when it was taken. 8'8 standing reach for a shooting guard is amazing. Okoro plays like a powerforward more than he does a shooting guard. Again, if we have the resources to transform him into a shooting guard in 3 years...with point guard duties like Beal, then I guess okoro is ok if we trade back.
It sounds like Washington is once again building their house out of convenient straws instead of using bricks that have permanent advantages for each position.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#47 » by Frichuela » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:41 pm

nate33 wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:He's an SG/SF. Reach isn't everything--90% of defense is effort, being in the right spot, and being quicker to said spot faster than the offensive player, all things which he can excel at.

If you're 6'6 with great lateral speed and great strength then you can guard 3's even with t-rex arms imo.

Defense is about being able to contest a shot without leaving your feet. If you aren't long enough to bother someone shot out on the perimeter, then you are only playing pretend defense.

Yes staying in front of someone helps, but if they can rise and shoot and you aren't long enough to contest, then you are basically relying on the person not having shooting ability. If am drafting a player on their defensive ability, they better have a dimension that can't be taught which is standing reach and excellent defensive movement. I am not drafting a undersized 8'4 standing reach guy to be my full time starter guarding small forwards with a lottery pick. Maybe late in the 1st, but definitely not an entire losing season just to be bring in a guy that doesn't allow me to challenge 3 pointers and post shots without leaving his feet. That's teh real issue with Okoro. He has explosive legs, he just doesn't have that broom for an an arm that you need to throw out at defender without leaving your feet. He is going to have to "always" leave his feet to challenge a shot.
Once you leave your feet, you can't recover.

Lu Dort has an 8'-3.5" standing reach, yet played some of the best defense I've ever seen anyone play on Harden - particularly for a rookie. Kyle Lowry is 6-0 tall and has a wingspan no larger than 6-3, if that; yet he is one of the best defensive PG's in the league.

It's possible to play position defense by crowding into a player, bumping his body as he shoots, and just being an overall pest without having great height or wingspan. Length helps, but there is more than one way to defend.


Agree with Nate and Dark Face!

Also, the standing reach of Okoro appears to have been taken when he was 16 years old at a USA Basketball Mini-Camp Measurements:
Date Measured: October 7th, 2017
Height w/ Shoes: 6'6"
Height w/o Shoes: 6'5"
Weight: 204 pounds
Wingspan: 6'8.5"
Standing Reach: 8'4.5"

Could it be that he has grown a bit since? If you look at the team picture of Auburn’s roster last year he looks close to some team mates listed 6’7” while having wider shoulders and a more impressive frame than any of them.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#48 » by Frichuela » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:43 pm

Here is Auburn’s basketball team picture and roster for last season: https://auburntigers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/2019-20
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#49 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:56 pm

Frichuela wrote:Here is Auburn’s basketball team picture and roster for last season: https://auburntigers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/2019-20

Look at how high he has to go off his feet and he his hands are at the rim. https://youtu.be/YZgmUrH8ev4?t=65

Just look at his feet and where is hand is relative to the net. that can easily tell you his standing reach.
https://youtu.be/YZgmUrH8ev4?t=65

He has 8'4 standing reach. He is not a full time small forward, he has the dimensions of a slightly undersized shooting guard with an 8'4 standing reach he basically the size of bradley beal and you guys want this guy to be small forward permanently and to guard in the post and switch on powerforwards.
Again rule of thumb. Small forwards 9'0 standing reach. He is nearly 8 inches shorter than what you want for a full time small forward. Don't try to smash a triangle into a square peg.
Wizard's are famous for doing this which is why they can't construct championship rosters.

Now if the plan is to ditch beal, and develop Okoro's ball handling and shooting mechanics...ok...because right now he plays instinctively like a powerforward. If that's the strategy then so be it. Otherwise, this is flawed roster with Beal, Okoro, and Wall. With Okoro guarding small forwards full time with responsibility to switch onto powerforwards.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#50 » by DCZards » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:20 pm

Dark Faze wrote:He's an SG/SF. Reach isn't everything--90% of defense is effort, being in the right spot, and being quicker to said spot faster than the offensive player, all things which he can excel at.

If you're 6'6 with great lateral speed and great strength then you can guard 3's even with t-rex arms imo.

Exactly. Okoro can guard 2-3 positions because of his foot speed, effort, defensive instincts and strength to work through picks. Those are the things that make it possible for him to stay with the man he's guarding.

Length ain't worth squat if you can't stay close enough to the man your guarding to contest his shot.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#51 » by Frichuela » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:22 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
Frichuela wrote:Here is Auburn’s basketball team picture and roster for last season: https://auburntigers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/2019-20

Look at how high he has to go off his feet and he his hands are at the rim. https://youtu.be/YZgmUrH8ev4?t=65

Just look at his feet and where is hand is relative to the net. that can easily tell you his standing reach.
https://youtu.be/YZgmUrH8ev4?t=65

He has 8'4 standing reach. He is not a full time small forward, he has the dimensions of a slightly undersized shooting guard with an 8'4 standing reach he basically the size of bradley beal and you guys want this guy to be small forward permanently and to guard in the post and switch on powerforwards.
Again rule of thumb. Small forwards 9'0 standing reach. He is nearly 8 inches shorter than what you want for a full time small forward. Don't try to smash a triangle into a square peg.
Wizard's are famous for doing this which is why they can't construct championship rosters.

Now if the plan is to ditch beal, and develop Okoro's ball handling and shooting mechanics...ok...because right now he plays instinctively like a powerforward. If that's the strategy then so be it. Otherwise, this is flawed roster with Beal, Okoro, and Wall. With Okoro guarding small forwards full time with responsibility to switch onto powerforwards.


So, in your view Jimmy Butler can not successfully guard 3s in the NBA?

In the combine, he measured 6’6” without shoes, with a 6’7.5” wingspan and a standing reach of 8’5”. These are pretty similar to Okoro, who weighs already 225 pounds (vs 215 in rookie Butler) and looks to have a stronger frame while being more athletic.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#52 » by Revenged25 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:47 pm

So Bleacher Report's recent mock draft had the Wizards trading up to the #5 with the Cavs and i was wondering what you guys would think of the trade.

Washington Wizards receive: No. 5, Cedi Osman
Cleveland Cavaliers receive: No. 9, No. 37 (via Bulls), Troy Brown Jr.

With the #5 pick they had the Wizards drafting Onyeka Okongwu. As a Cavs fan I'm not really sure how I feel about the trade as it just seems like shuffling around assets without any clear goal in mind still, but was curious what Wizards fans would think.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#53 » by prime1time » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:53 pm

Why Okoro over Patrick WIliams? If I'm choosing between those two, I'm taking Williams. Williams is bigger, longer and a better shooter (he shot 83.8% from the FT line). Williams is also 6 months younger.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#54 » by prime1time » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm

Revenged25 wrote:So Bleacher Report's recent mock draft had the Wizards trading up to the #5 with the Cavs and i was wondering what you guys would think of the trade.

Washington Wizards receive: No. 5, Cedi Osman
Cleveland Cavaliers receive: No. 9, No. 37 (via Bulls), Troy Brown Jr.

With the #5 pick they had the Wizards drafting Onyeka Okongwu. As a Cavs fan I'm not really sure how I feel about the trade as it just seems like shuffling around assets without any clear goal in mind still, but was curious what Wizards fans would think.

I reject outright any trade that includes Troy Brown Jr. Who would we draft at #5 that would be so valuable? I pass. And it's an easy decision. Unless Troy is bringing in legit talent it simply isn't worth it. We trade a kid that has already shown improvement and is super young for another kid that might be a bust? I say we stay at 9 and pick or we trade down. But trading up and throwing in Brown Jr. makes no sense and wreaks of the perspective of an NBA analyst that doesn't take the time to truly analyze the team.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#55 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:04 pm

Jimmy Butler = Okoro. You gotta be kidding me. Did you see Butler's Handles and shooting off the dribble ability in college. Do you know how many years it will take okoro to develop this based on what I am seeing so far.
https://youtu.be/b4g0pr0hbbc?t=117
Butler crosses with his off hand..power dribble and goes into a perfects formed high elbow jumpshot. Bulter displayed Michael Jordan mechanics and fade aways in college. Okoro has a basic flat elbow that doesn't even rise to his eyesocket.
There is just no comparison. AGain, Butler >>>> better than shooting guard than Okoro in college and its not even close.
They slide Butler to small forward but his real position is shooting guard. You can slide michael jordan to small forward but he can't bang with powerforwards and neither can butler or Okoro even part time on switches and you need a bare minimum standing reach to bother post player shots. A small forward guards both perimeter and post.
Wizards not having a long small forward with elite defensive movement skills in the line up is why we are one of the worst teams defensively each year.
You assume the Okoro is going to develop these muscle memory mechanics. Butler did alot to make up for his poor standing reach and Butler is a much better shooting guard than he is small forward.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#56 » by payitforward » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:09 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:aFter looking at these combine results and Paul Reed/ Robert Woodard clips, I am loving my initial impressions of Paul Reed. I personally think he is just a slight notch behind Precious and would go in the lottery in most drafts.
Paul Reed and Precious Achiuwa and Robert Woodard. If we walked away from this draft with those two guys, man would our future look nice!...

Just making sure I understand this -- you're still negative on Woodard? But you'd be happy if we came away with Achiuwa & Reed? Is that it?

I like Reed too. I could not be unhappy with that draft. I would definitely buy another R2 pick, however, & draft 1 of the very solid crew of guards that will be available. And sign Nathan Knight undrafted (though his Combine measurements may get him picked...).
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#57 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:18 pm

Revenged25 wrote:So Bleacher Report's recent mock draft had the Wizards trading up to the #5 with the Cavs and i was wondering what you guys would think of the trade.

Washington Wizards receive: No. 5, Cedi Osman
Cleveland Cavaliers receive: No. 9, No. 37 (via Bulls), Troy Brown Jr.

With the #5 pick they had the Wizards drafting Onyeka Okongwu. As a Cavs fan I'm not really sure how I feel about the trade as it just seems like shuffling around assets without any clear goal in mind still, but was curious what Wizards fans would think.


I would do it for Obi Toppin in a heart beat.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#58 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:19 pm

Revenged25 wrote:So Bleacher Report's recent mock draft had the Wizards trading up to the #5 with the Cavs and i was wondering what you guys would think of the trade.

Washington Wizards receive: No. 5, Cedi Osman
Cleveland Cavaliers receive: No. 9, No. 37 (via Bulls), Troy Brown Jr.

With the #5 pick they had the Wizards drafting Onyeka Okongwu. As a Cavs fan I'm not really sure how I feel about the trade as it just seems like shuffling around assets without any clear goal in mind still, but was curious what Wizards fans would think.

You will find that this forum (except Wizardynasty) is very high on Troy Brown Jr. He is still younger than many draft picks including Toppin, Saddiq Bey and Bane and he is about the same age as guys like Haliburton, Nesmith, Achiuwa and Smith. His statistical production at the NBA is really solid and he has shown significant improvement in his 2nd season. He also has a great attitude.

The Wizards are going to treat him as having the same value as a top 8-12 pick in this draft. So your trade is like trading the #9 and #10 pick for the #5 pick, in a draft with very little differentiation between #5 and #10.

So, no.

I'd trade the #9 plus #37 to move up to 5, but that's about it.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#59 » by queridiculo » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:24 pm

Revenged25 wrote:So Bleacher Report's recent mock draft had the Wizards trading up to the #5 with the Cavs and i was wondering what you guys would think of the trade.

Washington Wizards receive: No. 5, Cedi Osman
Cleveland Cavaliers receive: No. 9, No. 37 (via Bulls), Troy Brown Jr.

With the #5 pick they had the Wizards drafting Onyeka Okongwu. As a Cavs fan I'm not really sure how I feel about the trade as it just seems like shuffling around assets without any clear goal in mind still, but was curious what Wizards fans would think.


That's a definite no.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#60 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:25 pm

prime1time wrote:Why Okoro over Patrick WIliams? If I'm choosing between those two, I'm taking Williams. Williams is bigger, longer and a better shooter (he shot 83.8% from the FT line). Williams is also 6 months younger.

It's a tough call.

Dat2U has compared Okoro to Marcus Smart and Patrick Williams to Marvin Williams. I think both are pretty good comps.

Of those two players, which do you think helps you win more? Marvin Williams has the conventional tools that make him look the part of a good NBA player. He fits almost any roster but he was never really a difference maker. Marcus Smart is an unorthodox player without a real position, but he really makes an impact, at least with his attitude and force of will.

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