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What is JaVale McGee's ceiling?

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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#41 » by sfam » Tue Jun 2, 2009 1:25 am

WizarDynasty wrote:I think you guys aren't getting. The only thing keeping Javale from being a superstar is that he doesn't have the leg strenght to maintain a low squating, low center gravity defensive stance. He has extremely poor agility.


Hmm, no I think there's probably more things keeping Javale from being an All-star than just his leg strength. This is sort of an odd argument. I think his skills & basketball smarts could also use some improvement before we label him an All-Star. Personally, his agility didn't seem to be his major issue compared to his skills and overall awareness of the moment. If he's practicing anything, that's where I'd hope he spends the bulk of his time.

That said, I think Javale's upside is still huge. Then again we can say that with most athletic players. We're at least a year or two away from making any definitive statement. I think if you asked the same question about Blatche a few years back, for instance, most here would be far more optimistic about his potential than they are now. Yes, Blatche could be good, but you're not hearing any more KG comparisons...
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#42 » by WizarDynasty » Tue Jun 2, 2009 3:19 am

sfam wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:I think you guys aren't getting. The only thing keeping Javale from being a superstar is that he doesn't have the leg strenght to maintain a low squating, low center gravity defensive stance. He has extremely poor agility.


Hmm, no I think there's probably more things keeping Javale from being an All-star than just his leg strength. This is sort of an odd argument. I think his skills & basketball smarts could also use some improvement before we label him an All-Star. Personally, his agility didn't seem to be his major issue compared to his skills and overall awareness of the moment. If he's practicing anything, that's where I'd hope he spends the bulk of his time.

That said, I think Javale's upside is still huge. Then again we can say that with most athletic players. We're at least a year or two away from making any definitive statement. I think if you asked the same question about Blatche a few years back, for instance, most here would be far more optimistic about his potential than they are now. Yes, Blatche could be good, but you're not hearing any more KG comparisons...


I think we really can't talk to negatively about Blatche. Blatche is the best defensive powerforward on the roster, has above average agility and is an effective man to man defender. He is also gotten alot stronger while still maintaining his agility. The part that hold Blatche back from KG comparisons is that KG is a gets way more lift off the ground than Blatche. Blatche is more powerful than KG but doesn't possess the footwork and explosiveness that KG has. Blatche also doesn't have the stamina. AGain Blatche is a two way player possess a very high basketball IQ both offensively and defensively. Blatche's defensive basketball IQ is higher than Jamison's.
If McGee works on getting a low center gravity, he will be able to hold his position in the paint defensively as well as fight for position on rebounds. McGee developing a low center of gravity and above average agility greatly accelerates his Blooming process. If those two things are achieved this summer, he is clearly on the level of dhoward.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#43 » by kcruz » Tue Jun 2, 2009 7:41 am

I've said that once, and will continue to say that again and again - you guy's should compare JaVale with KG... There is no meaning prove it, time will tell... This guy is more PF than C, you all originate from his length, and draftexpress measurements etc. but JaVale is pretty much NEW type of basketball player. If you want to compare somebody with D12 then take DeAndre Jordan not JaVale. If you want to compare him with some C then Andrew Bynum, if with PF, then KG, but the best comparison for JaVale is JaVale himself. He is going to be great...
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#44 » by DaRealHibachi » Tue Jun 2, 2009 10:09 am

WizarDynasty wrote:I think we really can't talk to negatively about Blatche. Blatche is the best defensive powerforward on the roster, has above average agility and is an effective man to man defender. He is also gotten alot stronger while still maintaining his agility. The part that hold Blatche back from KG comparisons is that KG is a gets way more lift off the ground than Blatche. Blatche is more powerful than KG but doesn't possess the footwork and explosiveness that KG has. Blatche also doesn't have the stamina. AGain Blatche is a two way player possess a very high basketball IQ both offensively and defensively. Blatche's defensive basketball IQ is higher than Jamison's.
If McGee works on getting a low center gravity, he will be able to hold his position in the paint defensively as well as fight for position on rebounds. McGee developing a low center of gravity and above average agility greatly accelerates his Blooming process. If those two things are achieved this summer, he is clearly on the level of dhoward.


Blatche more Powerfull than KG!?!?!?!?!?!? :lol:

And no, McGee will NEVER be on the same level as D12...

You a funny dude... :lol:
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#45 » by WizarDynasty » Tue Jun 2, 2009 5:33 pm

Garnett is like 220 lbs. Blatche is close to 250 to 260. It's not hard to be stronger than Garnett. Garnett extremely agile and explosive off the ground extremely coordiniated and stands close to 7'1. Garnett's Shot is unblockable. He is very strong for his size but doesn't like to bang in the post.
Blatche is not explosive off the ground and not nearly as coordinated as KG and he is doesn't have KG's superb footwork. Garnett has the leg strength to get into a low defensive stance. He gets so low to the ground in his defensive stance out on the perimeter that he almost looks like a point guard.. he often times smacks the floor just to intimidate looking like a linebacker. KG is a beast.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#46 » by TheSecretWeapon » Tue Jun 2, 2009 8:01 pm

In terms of basketball skills, I don't like the comparison between Blatche and Garnett. 'Proof is shorter, heavier, slower, less explosive, less competitive, not as smart (in terms of basketball IQ), lower energy, lower focus, and less skilled (I'm not talking about streetball skills, I'm talking about things that actually matter in an NBA game).

That said, through their first 4 seasons, their numbers are superficially similar. Comparable rebounding, blocks, and steals. But KG (looking only at their first 4 seasons) pulls ahead when it comes to efficiency stuff -- he shot better and turned the ball over less frequently. KG played nearly 3x the minutes, had a PER that was 5 points better, and had almost 7x the win shares.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#47 » by pancakes3 » Tue Jun 2, 2009 9:19 pm

again - big men don't get into "low defensive stances". they don't need lane agility, or quick feet. they stand tall, hold their position, and force opponents to either shoot over them, spin around them, or power through them. Being able to shuffle your feet and maintaining a "horse stance" is a ridiculous thing to ask for out of a post defender. You DO need quick feet to keep dwayne wade from blowing past you. You DON'T need quick feet to keep shaq in front of you.

what's holding mcgee back physcially isn't the lack of quad muscles (more accurately the adductor muscles on the inner thigh do more for lane agility. quads are moreso used in conjunction with the hammies for getting into and holding a good defensive stance rather than traversing about while in it) but rather the lack of "rump". He has narrow hips and narrow shoulders, which would make it easier for beefy guys to spin on him. But, if he was asked to guard a PF, his length and height advantage would be enough to play good defense and incredible HELP defense on the center. Let Haywood handle the centers and let mcgee play rover on the baseline.

slapping the court is purely cosmetic and isn't how KG plays defense. kg doesn't hunch over and make himself a foot shorter when he guards people. no pf/c does.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#48 » by WizarDynasty » Wed Jun 3, 2009 1:04 am

pancakes3 wrote:again - big men don't get into "low defensive stances". they don't need lane agility, or quick feet. they stand tall, hold their position, and force opponents to either shoot over them, spin around them, or power through them. Being able to shuffle your feet and maintaining a "horse stance" is a ridiculous thing to ask for out of a post defender. You DO need quick feet to keep dwayne wade from blowing past you. You DON'T need quick feet to keep shaq in front of you.

what's holding mcgee back physcially isn't the lack of quad muscles (more accurately the adductor muscles on the inner thigh do more for lane agility. quads are moreso used in conjunction with the hammies for getting into and holding a good defensive stance rather than traversing about while in it) but rather the lack of "rump". He has narrow hips and narrow shoulders, which would make it easier for beefy guys to spin on him. But, if he was asked to guard a PF, his length and height advantage would be enough to play good defense and incredible HELP defense on the center. Let Haywood handle the centers and let mcgee play rover on the baseline.

slapping the court is purely cosmetic and isn't how KG plays defense. kg doesn't hunch over and make himself a foot shorter when he guards people. no pf/c does.

So i guess you don't think McGee isn't going to spend alot of time outside of the paint guarding powerforwards that attempt to take him off hte dribble. Or McGee doesn't need superior agility when he is out on the perimeter guarding the pick and roll which is the bread and butter play of the nba right now. McGee is guarding powerforwards out on the perimeter and if can't keep his chest in front of them on the a drive he is going to be called for the foul. A shot blocker with no agility is a easy foul call for the refs. Not having a low center of gravity while defending out on the perimeter against a quick powerforward is called...Blow by. Powerforwards that can shoot a jumper are going to force mcgee out on the perimeter and if doesn't have good agility he is going to get call for the foul like he did 90 percent of the time when he was guarding out on the perimeter this season because of his poor agility. And McGee is guarding jumping shooting powerforwards a majority of the time..i don't think Shaq qualifies as a powerforward. You also need a low center of gravity when battling for rebounding position. The reason mcgee gets nudge out of position so easily is because his center of gravity is so high that its easy to knock him off balance.
Guarding out on the perimeter..the lower your center of gravity, easier it is the change directions in response to the offensive player. The higher you center of gravity means you can't maintain your balance when you change directions. McGee is going to spend the majority of his career guarding shooting powerforwards outside of the paint which requires agility. Teh main reason he can't be counted on his because of his poor defensive stance and agility movements.
KG plays excellent perimeter defense because he has the abilty to maintain a low defensive stance and change directions in response to the player he is guarding out on the perimeter. McGee is horrible at changing directions if you ever noticed i assume that you have. KG maintains a low center of gravity when guarding out the perimeter or outside of the paint so yes athletic pf/c that are great defenders do make themselves smaller on the perimeter to increase their agility and they make themselves big right under the basket or when a player is in a shooting motion. You don't maintain a high center of gravity if you are guarding a player one one out on the perimeter doesn't. Last i checked player like amare stoudemire drive the basket from the perimeter and with McGee's poor agility and defensive stance, its and automatic foul if mcgee tries to guard him.
So in order for mcgee to become more valuable to us, he needs to develop his defensive perimeter skills so he can match up well with athletic powerforwards that can put the ball on the floor which many powerforwards jumpshooting powerforwards can do. Hopefully this clears things up for you.
If you ever played defensive back in football, this would make clear sense to you and you have to mimic the players moves without bumping him.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#49 » by hands11 » Wed Jun 3, 2009 1:40 am

AgentOvechkin08 wrote:Put it this way McGee would be a top 5 pick in this years draft no doubt.



Oh yeah... Top 2 maybe #1. Not a bad pick by EG last year. Great minds think alike. Glad he was reading my pre-draft posts :)


As for his ceiling. At 7-1 bare footed ( says his mom ) I'm thinking he has 15ft ceilings.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#50 » by pancakes3 » Wed Jun 3, 2009 3:20 am

WizarDynasty wrote:So i guess you don't think McGee isn't going to spend alot of time outside of the paint guarding powerforwards that attempt to take him off hte dribble. Or McGee doesn't need superior agility when he is out on the perimeter guarding the pick and roll which is the bread and butter play of the nba right now. McGee is guarding powerforwards out on the perimeter and if can't keep his chest in front of them on the a drive he is going to be called for the foul. A shot blocker with no agility is a easy foul call for the refs. Not having a low center of gravity while defending out on the perimeter against a quick powerforward is called...Blow by. Powerforwards that can shoot a jumper are going to force mcgee out on the perimeter and if doesn't have good agility he is going to get call for the foul like he did 90 percent of the time when he was guarding out on the perimeter this season because of his poor agility. And McGee is guarding jumping shooting powerforwards a majority of the time..i don't think Shaq qualifies as a powerforward. You also need a low center of gravity when battling for rebounding position. The reason mcgee gets nudge out of position so easily is because his center of gravity is so high that its easy to knock him off balance.
Guarding out on the perimeter..the lower your center of gravity, easier it is the change directions in response to the offensive player. The higher you center of gravity means you can't maintain your balance when you change directions. McGee is going to spend the majority of his career guarding shooting powerforwards outside of the paint which requires agility. Teh main reason he can't be counted on his because of his poor defensive stance and agility movements.
KG plays excellent perimeter defense because he has the abilty to maintain a low defensive stance and change directions in response to the player he is guarding out on the perimeter. McGee is horrible at changing directions if you ever noticed i assume that you have. KG maintains a low center of gravity when guarding out the perimeter or outside of the paint so yes athletic pf/c that are great defenders do make themselves smaller on the perimeter to increase their agility and they make themselves big right under the basket or when a player is in a shooting motion. You don't maintain a high center of gravity if you are guarding a player one one out on the perimeter doesn't. Last i checked player like amare stoudemire drive the basket from the perimeter and with McGee's poor agility and defensive stance, its and automatic foul if mcgee tries to guard him.
So in order for mcgee to become more valuable to us, he needs to develop his defensive perimeter skills so he can match up well with athletic powerforwards that can put the ball on the floor which many powerforwards jumpshooting powerforwards can do. Hopefully this clears things up for you.
If you ever played defensive back in football, this would make clear sense to you and you have to mimic the players moves without bumping him.


no, mcgee doesn't need footspeed because he's 7 feet and change and has the reach of an albatross. even if a player does blow past him, he's long enough to recover and come from behind.

reference top play #7 for a visual example on how length allows for recovery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIdOj_my ... re=related

this effect would be magnified if rotated on a pg during the pick and roll.

it's also ironic that you used low basketball iq, unskilled, wilcox-esque Amare in your example since about 24 hrs ago you were insinuating that amare dosn't possess the requisite brain cells to realize that he could drive on mcgee. yeah. good job choosing the one pf who's unstoppable in driving to the hoop in your example. you're right. mcgee can't check amare. he also can't check Bosh, Duncan, KG, or Dirk. However, outside of those 5 insanely talented players, he can definitely keep up with: Varajao, David West, David Lee, Lamarcus Aldridge, Rasheed Wallace, Kenyon Martin, and a host of various scrub PFs that i don't care to enumerate.

segue:
The pick and roll defense made me nauseous last year. I remember making a note about how we always switched and never once have a guard fight through the screen. It was almost as if EJ/ET coached the defense to switch automatically on all picks. That's inexcusable especially with the youthful athleticism we had on the floor last year. Nick Young is quick enough to fight through 75% of the picks set for him and yet i didn't count one time where he shoved through, or even slipped under the screen. It was auto-rotate and he was stuck guarding a post player. absurd.

post-script:
actually a DB's stance is not an ideal defensive position for basketball. their weight is shifted back and their legs are staggered because they're preparing to keep up with a WR going out at a dead sprint. a linebacker's stance is a much better stance for basketball because their weight is on the balls of their feet and they're leaning forward with their feet/shoulders square on the man.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#51 » by WizarDynasty » Wed Jun 3, 2009 3:42 am

it's also ironic that you used low basketball iq, unskilled, wilcox-esque Amare in your example since about 24 hrs ago you were insinuating that amare dosn't possess the requisite brain cells to realize that he could drive on mcgee. yeah. good job choosing the one pf who's unstoppable in driving to the hoop in your example. you're right. mcgee can't check amare. he also can't check Bosh, Duncan, KG, or Dirk. However, outside of those 5 insanely talented players, he can definitely keep up with: Varajao, David West, David Lee, Lamarcus Aldridge, Rasheed Wallace, Kenyon Martin, and a host of various scrub PFs that i don't care to enumerate.

And if Amare was unstoppable driving to basket, then Phoenix would have won a championship or made it the finals by now so obviously somone stopped him so he isn't unstoppable. All you are doing is embarassing yourself. "adding unskilled"...makes you look stupid because i never said amare was unskilled. Amare and Wilcox are extremely similiar. Many powerforward in the league besides Amare can put the ball on the floor and drive to basket. Javale doesn't have the footspeed due to his high center of gravity to guard most of them. If he drops his center of gravity, i believe he can guard almost all of them. Quit adding words like "unskilled" just to bolster your argument. Calling Wilcox and Amare unskilled players is stupid. They have low basketball IQ's meaning they don't set have the basketball IQ to set up other players on offense or smart at diagnosing an opposing teams offensive play and countering it...both of them are skilled. Amare could be a genius mathmatecian..my statement was limited to basketball IQ so again, check yourself because you aren't looking to smart when you are trying to paraphrase my arguments without using my direct quotes. I suggest you use my direct quotes so you don't embarrass yourself.
Javale's number one priority should be to lower his defensive stance and strengthen his legs so that can he can cover quick players on a the pick and roll. Until he drops his stance and improve his leg strengthen he is a horrible defensive liability out on the perimeter. What makes dwight so effective is that he has the lateral leg strength to keep up laterally with a quick player driving to bucket. With hard work McGee can do it but the wizards coaching has no idea why how to train their bigs to be agile out on the perimeter against pick and rolls. If javale's smart he'll get those quads stronger so that he can quickly be recognized as second team or first team all defense. he will completely dominate a game if he spends the summer working on his low center of gravity agility and one leg jumping post moves. So if he practices doing lateral agility drills with a low center of gravity and a WEIGHT JACKET every day this summer, we will see a tremendous improvment in his defense.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#52 » by pancakes3 » Wed Jun 3, 2009 4:40 am

Amare low bball IQ and is really an offensive threat when he has point guard that thinks on offense for him.


Much of Amare's success comes from Nash breaking down the defense.


I see him being slightly better than defensively over Wilcox but both are the same kind of player. Wilcox would be Amare with steve nash as his point guard.


Amare's offense normally comes Nash breaking down the defense. Amare is far less effective once the tempo of the game is slowed down


Most of Amare's career, he has earned the majority of his point from opportunities created by Nash. In Crunch time playoff games, you need a player who can shoot an high field goal percentage in a one on one matchup and be a go to player. If Amare was being assisted 70% of the time, he wasn't a go to player. It mean't that he had got an easy scoring opportunity because someone else created an opening for him...Nash.


i never said amare was unskilled. Amare and Wilcox are extremely similiar


after repeatedly saying that amare can't create for himself (i.e. driving past defenders to the basket) is it that crazy to assume that you think amare is unskilled offensively?

after repeatedly comparing amare stoudemire to chris wilcox, a man who cannot score efficiently outside of dunks/tip-ins, and gets 10% of his layups blocked
(http://www.82games.com/0809/08NYK15.HTM) , isn't it fair to assume that you think amare and wilcox are unskilled?


and as for this quote:

Calling Wilcox and Amare unskilled players is stupid. They have low basketball IQ's meaning they don't set have the basketball IQ to set up other players on offense or smart at diagnosing an opposing teams offensive play and countering it...both of them are skilled.


i don't even know what you mean by that. they have low basketball iq except for the instances where they do have basketball iq? they have low basketball iq and yet they're extremely skilled players? what exactly do you think basketball iq is comprised of?



fish... i think i'm done. i don't have anyone on the ignore list because i think it'd lead to a slippery slope effect of shutting myself from opposing viewpoints. but in this instance, i think it's been thoroughly vetted that nothing can be learned in these exchanges. i will miss being so thoroughly right so consistently though.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#53 » by WizarDynasty » Wed Jun 3, 2009 4:42 am

See Kaman. It really is pointless with but you aren't my target audience.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#54 » by TheSecretWeapon » Wed Jun 3, 2009 1:28 pm

Okay, I'll bite: Who is your target audience?
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#55 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 3, 2009 2:32 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:Okay, I'll bite: Who is your target audience?


My best guess.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#56 » by fishercob » Wed Jun 3, 2009 2:43 pm

Hey jackass. If you're sofa king smart and the Wiz front office is your "target audience" don't you think you'd be bright enough to get Ernie's or Tommy Shepherd's email address and spare the rest of us? I mean, we all agree that you're really, really, REALLY smart. Perhaps you could use a sliver of that superior intellect to get your high-level message to the high-level folks who make the decisions, and not waste your time on us peons.
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#57 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 3, 2009 2:54 pm

fishercob wrote:blarn


Eh, Nope. I for one like a chance to be educated by the true 'eminence grise. It's a public service, a mitzvah to give your man your ear. Recall, of serial killers they commonly say 'he was always such a quiet man'. If the Unibomber had the internet, he might have spared a plane or two. Post away WizDy!
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#58 » by fishercob » Wed Jun 3, 2009 2:55 pm

doclinkin wrote:
fishercob wrote:blarn


Eh, Nope. I for one like a chance to be educated by the true 'eminence grise. It's a public service, a mitzvah to give your man your ear. Recall, of serial killers they commonly say 'he was always such a quiet man'. If the Unibomber had the internet, he might have spared a plane or two. Post away WizDy!


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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#59 » by bryant08 » Wed Jun 3, 2009 8:52 pm

Some pretty solid comparisons guys. What about Nick Young? What would you consider a good comparison for him?
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Re: What is JaVale McGee's ceiling? 

Post#60 » by Wizards2Lottery » Wed Jun 3, 2009 9:09 pm

bryant08 wrote:What about Nick Young? What would you consider a good comparison for him?


If Kobe sucked at basketball, he would be Nick Young.

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