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Caron "Grape Drink" Butler Must Go Now!!

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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#41 » by hands11 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:50 am

JonathanJoseph wrote:"Tuff Juice" used to let the game come to him. He'd score within the rythmn of the offense, he get others involved.

Now he thinks he needs his numbers, he does nothing but force jumpshots or try to play 1-on-1 and he does not look to pass at all. 3 assists through 6 games is simply awful under any circumstances.

He should have been benched early and often LAST season, but Tapscott put it in his head that he can do whatever he wants and not be accountable. The bad habits have stuck around...


This is what Ive been saying. I can only wonder what things will look like when CB, GA and AJ finally the floor again. 20 shots each at 42%, 3 by Haywood. 3 by Blache. Oh the good old days.

Flip has his work cut out. Said Ive just hearing the same old lines. The ball is sticking. They have to trust their teammates. When we finally get healthy.

At least we look like our D is better. I feel sorry for Haywood and Blatche when this team gets healthy They probably once see the ball again.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#42 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:31 pm

Some interesting comments in Lee's latest article:
Michael Lee wrote:I've already written about Butler's struggles to get on the same page with Gilbert Arenas, who has the ball the majority of the time on offense and appears to be focused on scoring and getting assists, not necessarily running the whole team. Since Butler gets a lot of his scoring off the dribble, that limits Arenas's assists totals -- especially since Butler is shooting just 39.3 percent from the floor. But there appear to be times when Arenas looks off Butler. In turn, Butler sometimes forces the action when he touches the ball.

I wonder how much of this is speculation and how much is from private conversations with the players? There does seem to be an unhealthy focus on individual assist stats. Could Arenas really be looking off Butler just because he's concerned that Butler won't shoot quick enough for it to register as an assist?

Michael Lee wrote:"They put us in situations to be in [isolations] and capitalize on an opportunity, so there's no such things as hockey assists in this game," Butler said. "So I'm not going to get an assist for that: A play that led from my double-team that led to the swing-pass that led to the open jumper. I won't get credit for that, but the basketball minds know. So I'm just going to continue to go out there and do whatever I can to help this team get better, because that's all I know how to do."

It's also a bit disconcerting that Butler doesn't seem to even acknowledge that he isn't passing this year. The "hockey assist theory" doesn't explain 0.6 assists per game.

Michael Lee wrote:"I've been in one system for four or five years, and now I'm getting adjusted and more accustomed to another system," Butler said. "Once I realize what I can do in the spots that I'm in and having our guys whole and seeing what situation's what, 20 games in, we'll revisit this and see where it's at."

I like the sound of this much better. He at least realizes that there are some mental adjustments that he hasn't yet made.

Michael Lee wrote:Butler is averaging just 16.9 points, his lowest scoring average since coming to Washington, but he also is doing other things, such as rebounding. His 7.9 boards are the most since his arrival, and he did an excellent job of taking Quentin Richardson out of the game on Tuesday in Miami, where he pitched a complete-game shutout.

Another good point. Butler may not be playing well offensively, but some on this board have confused that with a lack of effort. In reality, Butler seems to be excelling at the aspects of the game most dependent on effort: rebounding and defense. There's still a little "Tough Juice" left in him.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#43 » by MJG » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:20 pm

It's just a little blurb, but Caron made Hollinger's list of early season disappointments ...

All the attention in D.C. has been on "Agent Zero," and to a lesser extent, the rash of injuries that's already hit the Wizards. Under the radar, however, Butler is struggling, and it's a big reason the Wizards rank a disappointing 20th in offensive efficiency thus far. Butler is shooting only 39.3 percent from the floor, and his jumper appears to have all but deserted him -- he's made just three triples the entire season.

The most shocking number, however, is this one: 2.7. That's Butler's assist ratio though seven games. He has taken 90 shots and has only four assists -- yes, four. That's the league's worst assist ratio among small forwards, and on a team that's always been accused of not sharing the ball enough, it's a worrying sign.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#44 » by MF23 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:03 pm

Still not worried about CB and I believe you can win a title with him as feature player.

One thing that worries me is that he seems to lose a step every season and he's still in his 20's. Combine that with his annual injury problems and the contending window might be a lot smaller than all of us realize. Even with the probability of his body breaking down with age I think Caron could lead this team offensively.

I wouldn't be that angry if Caron was part of a big trade due to some patterns I'm seeing.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#45 » by W. Unseld » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:56 pm

I hate the "sucky" threads generally (all though I guess it did fire up Dixon one time) and I think they are only appropriate where you just can't root for the guy/organization (think Daniel Snyder with the Redskins or some horrible bust that the GM forces the coach to play--we don't have that scenario yet).
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#46 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:53 pm

Agreed. I don't like the title of this thread either.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#47 » by Shanghai Kid » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:50 am

This may be an extreme, but Butler honestly may be a better fit off the bench. Somehow in the last three years Caron got so comfortable with his iso pull up jumpers that its hard for him to adjust without them. They just don't fit in this offense unless he's being used in the scorer off the bench role.

I would start Gilbert/Miller/Jamison/Blatche/Haywood. I think this offense works better if you surround Gilbert with shooters.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#48 » by nate33 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:01 am

Shanghai Kid wrote:This may be an extreme, but Butler honestly may be a better fit off the bench. Somehow in the last three years Caron got so comfortable with his iso pull up jumpers that its hard for him to adjust without them. They just don't fit in this offense unless he's being used in the scorer off the bench role.

I would start Gilbert/Miller/Jamison/Blatche/Haywood. I think this offense works better if you surround Gilbert with shooters.

It's hard to disagree. Whatever the reason, Butler has not been a very good basketball player this year. His PER is 11.9. His TS% is .463. His on/off differential is a whopping -18.3. By any objective measure, he has not been one of the five best players on the roster and doesn't deserve to start.

Our four best players so far this year have been Blatche, Haywood, Miller and Arenas. When Jamison returns, there's no reason to bench any of those four.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#49 » by P'Oed » Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:02 am

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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#50 » by LyricalRico » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:48 am

Is it just me, or are most of our scoring runs cut short by a Butler forced shot or turnover? It seems like anytime we start to get momentum, Butler does something to give it right back to the other team. Very frustrating.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#51 » by ErikChowbay023 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:10 pm

LyricalRico wrote:Is it just me, or are most of our scoring runs cut short by a Butler forced shot or turnover? It seems like anytime we start to get momentum, Butler does something to give it right back to the other team. Very frustrating.



Your right...to a certain extent..I give Caron a lot of credit..because he plays hard..and gets to the free throw line..But I remember last night, I was screaming at the TV slow down, slow down, wait Caron WAIT!!! And then boom he gets an offensive foul.. He just needs to slow down.. I don't mind his contested jumper here and there, but I think Flip should let Caron handle the ball a bit, and allow others to move around him because 75% of the time once he gets the ball after the play is run, he wont move it again..
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#52 » by old rem » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:52 am

go'stags wrote:Another difference between the two is that Butler has never, even last year, approached the level of cancer that S-Jax has reached multiple times it seems.

Yea, last year was not a bright spot for him. But I hardly see how anything he is doing now is "out of control". True, he has forced some shots, but we are without 2 main offensive weapons, he is adjusting to a new system, so I can excuse him trying to get going, especially this early in the year. And keep in mind Flip is still figuring out what works best for his roster, not just the other way around.

Again, if he was not giving any effort on defense I might agree, but he is displaying more effort defensively than he ever has since coming here. And by the end of the year, those assist numbers wont mean a damn thing. He will get comfortable, stop pressing and forcing shots, Flip will find what works best for him, and he will get better.

Just gotta start hitting some shots.


Aside from Jackson not knowing when to shut the F up....there's not that much differencee,and Jackson DOES pass and play D. Both are way too apt to chuck a J. Jackson won't get apathetic,kind of the reverse,he gets too tightly wound.

The Wiz really need leadership to get across to these players that they can be at the top of the East but have to be overall players,team guys and not stat whores. If Butler forgot that,sit him and let him know why.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#53 » by newslowsad » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:27 am

I've never seen Caron play this crappy for so long.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#54 » by GhostsOfGil » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:00 pm

correct me if im wrong but i remember caron playing the best when he was utilized as a point forward in ejs princeton. letting him handle the ball at the top of the key and making him play as a playmaker made him very effective.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#55 » by JonathanJoseph » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:19 am

What's astonishing is that Butler has played very hard on the defensive end and is doing a great job of rebounding.

But his shooting and effort have been inconsistent (at best) and somehow he became a player who plays with a very low basketball IQ. It's hard to believe he won't snap out of it at some point soon...this is a legitimate 2-time all-star.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#56 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:00 pm

JonathanJoseph wrote:What's astonishing is that Butler has played very hard on the defensive end and is doing a great job of rebounding.

But his shooting and effort have been inconsistent (at best) and somehow he became a player who plays with a very low basketball IQ. It's hard to believe he won't snap out of it at some point soon...this is a legitimate 2-time all-star.

There's nothing wrong with Butler's effort. It's his shooting and his tunnel vision that are the problem.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#57 » by Rafael122 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:10 pm

The guy needs to stop pump faking so much. He either does that and/or drives it to the hole only for it it get blocked. I think he lost too much weight b/c he's no longer able to muscle his way into the paint.
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#58 » by crackhed » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:12 pm

i'm hoping that in another 5games or so this thread will be proven ill-conceived
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#59 » by JonathanJoseph » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:18 pm

nate33 wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote:What's astonishing is that Butler has played very hard on the defensive end and is doing a great job of rebounding.

But his shooting and effort have been inconsistent (at best) and somehow he became a player who plays with a very low basketball IQ. It's hard to believe he won't snap out of it at some point soon...this is a legitimate 2-time all-star.

There's nothing wrong with Butler's effort. It's his shooting and his tunnel vision that are the problem.
I said for the most part, but there have been a good number of truly shocking examples of Butler falling asleep out there and giving less than 100% effort. And I say shocking because I can't believe I'm seeing it. I think it was in the 2nd half of the Detroit game with time winding down and the Wiz needing a stop Butler stood still and watched Jonas Jerebko grab the offensive rebound. Butler didn't get beat, he literally stood still.

I think Caron Butler is still playing Ed Tapscott-ball. Tapscott set it up that Caron is a "veteran leader" of the team and plays like this entitles him to both minutes and shots. He doesn't play like a guy who might (should) lose minutes to Mike Miller and Andray Blatche.

Just to be clear, through 10 games Butler is 37th among 38 NBA small forwards in assists per 48 minutes. This is 100% unacceptable for a player taking 16 shots per game and shooting <40%. As slumps go, this is hard to fathom.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&qual=true&sort=asts&league=nba&split=0&season=2010&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=sf
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Re: The Shockingly Sucky Caron Butler Thread. 

Post#60 » by JonathanJoseph » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:03 pm

I hate to say I told ya so but based on Arenas' comments today, it looks like I've been barking up the right tree with Butler. And it's clear that Haywood's earlier comment about not being upset about being left off the all-star ballot was also a stab at Butler.

Last year seems to have ruined Caron. He goes for his and the quick shots he was taking in garbage time versus the Spurs seems to confirm the obvious.

Who would have imagined that Butler would become a selfish diva? Sorry to say, but it is what it is.
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