The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[closg00]

The thing is that Flip talked a good game prior to the season beginning, he said that his lineups may vary depending on match-ups etc. When the season began, he did show flexibility with the lineups and that was refreshing. Since the losing began he has hunkered-down with the vets and has shown zero creativity/flexibility with the rotations and refuses to use McGee to his advantage. Flip needs help from the FO, but he has not shown a ability to try and work with what he has. Very disappointing.

[nate33]

I have major quibbles with Flip Saunders.

He's done a poor job. Period.

First, he panders to the veterans who do not defend well and who do take poor shots.

Second, he gives young guys the quick hook. Young has played much better than Stevenson. Check the Minnesota. McGee never plays. Check the losses, particularly against teams like Miami and Utah. Flip would rather consistently score under 90 and have few assists for the team than to wake up and smell the coffee that McGee is the best finisher on the team. Guys like Ryan Hollins and Corey Brewer BEAT THE HIGH-PAID VETERANS yesterday. Hollin's dunk could have been followed by McGee off the bench.

McGee and Blatche together? When's the last time we saw that? I know Haywood's playing well! Flip needs to see THE PROBLEM IS JAMISON AT PF. Give him minutes at SF or rest him more to get a bigger, more athletic team out there. CHECK THIS OUT: IF Jamison's going to shoot it all the time, WHY NOT MAKING HIM A SG? Glen Rice, Steve Smith -- they weren't that much smaller than AJ.... Flip needs to move Jamison from PF to get McGee and others on the court.

Third, his offense has bee the adjustment that's stumped players that at least used to be good chuckers.

Fourth, he's done a lot of talking. But only once has he benched his starters. He got the win that game.

I DO NOT BLAME FLIP FOR INHERETING PLAYERS WHO HAVE A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT, for getting a bunch of guys who get their shots but don't have the same fervor on defense, for players with low basketball IQs, for getting A BUNCH OF SOFT PLAYERS, for getting guys that seem to be injured very, very frequently.

That said, Flip's record IMO should be about 14-14. Not 10-18.

The Minnesota loss was just disgusting to watch. Play Jamison, Butler, Arenas all 40 (or thereabouts) plus, and then watch as Minnesota grabs all the loose balls at the end. To have a game where the team gives a dispirited effort but not use all your bench ....

Flip IS DEFINITELY NOT OFF TO A GOOD START as far as I'm concerned.

The roster is on Grunfeld.

CCJ, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just disagree. Your opinion is predicated on the theory that McGee would be more effective than Jamison at PF. I just don't see any evidence to support that. Your opinion is also based on the notion that Butler and Jamison would play better at SG and SF than they do at SF and PF. I don't agree with that either.

With the exception of playing Young over Stevenson/Foye, I don't really see any major lineup change that is likely to improve our record. One can certainly argue that more minutes for the youngsters wouldn't make us much worse, and that it may help in the long term to play the youngsters even if it hurts us in the short term; but I don't think playing McGee would have actually improved our record. Flip can be blamed for being shortsighted, but I don't think he has cost us more games than any other decent coach would have in the same position.

Flip has come in here with a mandate to win immediately. It's hard to turn around and blame him for not grooming the youngsters.

[closg00]

Two coaches have already failed with this squad. Flip has had only 25 games to turn around 5 years of bad habits. I'm not even close to blaming Flip for anything at this point.

TWO coaches??? Ed Tankscott a coach????? Puhleaze!!!! Flip is making the SAME mistakes that EJ and Tankscott did which is trotting-out the same vet lineup that was successful 3 -4 years ago and FAILING. If Flip were truly trying everything to right the ship I'd cut him a break.

[mohammed10]

TWO coaches??? Ed Tankscott a coach????? Puhleaze!!!! Flip is making the SAME mistakes that EJ and Tankscott did which is trotting-out the same vet lineup that was successful 3 -4 years ago and FAILING. If Flip were truly trying everything to right the ship I'd cut him a break.

+1

[nate33]

Four major differences between EJ and Flip that I consider to be positive:

Flip plays Haywood more. A lot more.

Flip's defensive strategy is predicated on forcing misses. We are the 20th ranked D in the league and we rank 10th in opponent eFG% allowed. Two years ago under EJ's gambling D, we ranked 24th and 26th in those two categories respectively, and that's with Daniels at PG who is a better defender than Arenas.

Flip plays Oberto sparingly. He understandably played him a lot in the first few games with Jamison out and the youngster getting acclimated to the system, but lately, Oberto rarely plays. EJ would have stuck with a guy like Oberto through thick and thin.

Flip gives Young multiple chances to earn his way out of the doghouse. Yes, he has a quick hook with Young, but he keeps throwing him back out there. It has paid off. Young is playing the right way - taking fewer shots and playing better D. (Now, if only his shots would fall a bit more, we'd be onto something.)



I think Flip is pretty fair with the youngsters for the most part, with the notable exception of McGee. I figure there is something specific about McGee that is really forcing the coach not to play him. He must really suck in practice or something. Either that or he is mentally incapable of grasping the system.

[closg00]

^^^

I embrace Flips improvements to the team. However, Flip is sinking with his current rotation and he refuses to adjust or he is slow to make an adjustment (benching DeShawn)

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just disagree. Your opinion is predicated on the theory that McGee would be more effective than Jamison at PF. I just don't see any evidence to support that. Your opinion is also based on the notion that Butler and Jamison would play better at SG and SF than they do at SF and PF. I don't agree with that either.

With the exception of playing Young over Stevenson/Foye, I don't really see any major lineup change that is likely to improve our record. One can certainly argue that more minutes for the youngsters wouldn't make us much worse, and that it may help in the long term to play the youngsters even if it hurts us in the short term; but I don't think playing McGee would have actually improved our record. Flip can be blamed for being shortsighted, but I don't think he has cost us more games than any other decent coach would have in the same position.

Flip has come in here with a mandate to win immediately. It's hard to turn around and blame him for not grooming the youngsters.

I could be wrong, nate. I'm okay with your perspective.

Just know that my theory is that BLATCHE should be the PF. McGee should get minutes at both. Jamison IMO is perhaps a better SF than Butler. Regardless, he hurts the team defensively at PF and on the boards late, especially. McGee is just a guy who can be a spark at times and a top gap at others while he learns.

My criticism with Flip is he's way too conventional and not at all out of the box. Young teams are winning games. Flip's old school approach might not be working for a reason.

Also, look at the teams that are winning and the size they have at PF and SF. Washington should commit to Blatche/McGee at PF--or find a way to get a guy like Bosh! Jamison is a stretch or hybrid PF, but I'm thinking why not make him a big 3? Caron's not good in Flip's system. Not at all.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

TWO coaches??? Ed Tankscott a coach????? Puhleaze!!!! Flip is making the SAME mistakes that EJ and Tankscott did which is trotting-out the same vet lineup that was successful 3 -4 years ago and FAILING. If Flip were truly trying everything to right the ship I'd cut him a break.

+1

EJ had the Wizboard five. It's way too early, but I'm just saying we could be the three founders of the Flip's a Flop three.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Four major differences between EJ and Flip that I consider to be positive:

Flip plays Haywood more. A lot more.

Flip's defensive strategy is predicated on forcing misses. We are the 20th ranked D in the league and we rank 10th in opponent eFG% allowed. Two years ago under EJ's gambling D, we ranked 24th and 26th in those two categories respectively, and that's with Daniels at PG who is a better defender than Arenas.

Flip plays Oberto sparingly. He understandably played him a lot in the first few games with Jamison out and the youngster getting acclimated to the system, but lately, Oberto rarely plays. EJ would have stuck with a guy like Oberto through thick and thin.

Flip gives Young multiple chances to earn his way out of the doghouse. Yes, he has a quick hook with Young, but he keeps throwing him back out there. It has paid off. Young is playing the right way - taking fewer shots and playing better D. (Now, if only his shots would fall a bit more, we'd be onto something.)



I think Flip is pretty fair with the youngsters for the most part, with the notable exception of McGee. I figure there is something specific about McGee that is really forcing the coach not to play him. He must really suck in practice or something. Either that or he is mentally incapable of grasping the system.

nate, I like the defensive improvement under Flip in going from 24th to 20th defensively. However, the offense under EJ (without Arenas) was 12th. Under Flip, with Arenas it's 22nd. Two seasons ago, without Arenas the Wizards under a bad coach finished 40-42. Pythagorean (according to basketball reference) was 15th. Right now under Flip, pythagorean team strength is 22nd.

Statistically, I'm not seeing improvement under Flip. Failing to score 90 against a bad team like the Timberwolves just shouldn't happen.

As for Javale I'm wondering if he's late to practice and failing drug tests--at least one. I can't understand it.

[Hoopalotta]

Bosh?

Bosh is the kind of guy I'd consider going after if we were playing really well and I thought we needed something to push us over the top and go even further in with our core. Getting Bosh would be about dumping expirings and youth and insuring a few years of heavy tax spending for the chance at winning a championship. It's an all in move.

That is exactly the opposite of what we should do.

We need to be patient and responsible. My belief is that we're about a month or so away from seeing a WHOLE lot of McGee and Blatche developmental minutes.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

I dunno. I think Bosh is good enough to build a team around. He's still relatively young as well. Bottom line is he is match up hell for opponents, rebounds well, is a solid citizen and defends the rim pretty well.

[dandridge 10]

I have major quibbles with Flip Saunders.

He's done a poor job. Period.

First, he panders to the veterans who do not defend well and who do take poor shots.

Second, he gives young guys the quick hook. Young has played much better than Stevenson. Check the Minnesota. McGee never plays. Check the losses, particularly against teams like Miami and Utah. Flip would rather consistently score under 90 and have few assists for the team than to wake up and smell the coffee that McGee is the best finisher on the team. Guys like Ryan Hollins and Corey Brewer BEAT THE HIGH-PAID VETERANS yesterday. Hollin's dunk could have been followed by McGee off the bench.

McGee and Blatche together? When's the last time we saw that? I know Haywood's playing well! Flip needs to see THE PROBLEM IS JAMISON AT PF. Give him minutes at SF or rest him more to get a bigger, more athletic team out there. CHECK THIS OUT: IF Jamison's going to shoot it all the time, WHY NOT MAKING HIM A SG? Glen Rice, Steve Smith -- they weren't that much smaller than AJ.... Flip needs to move Jamison from PF to get McGee and others on the court.

Third, his offense has bee the adjustment that's stumped players that at least used to be good chuckers.

Fourth, he's done a lot of talking. But only once has he benched his starters. He got the win that game.

I DO NOT BLAME FLIP FOR INHERETING PLAYERS WHO HAVE A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT, for getting a bunch of guys who get their shots but don't have the same fervor on defense, for players with low basketball IQs, for getting A BUNCH OF SOFT PLAYERS, for getting guys that seem to be injured very, very frequently.

That said, Flip's record IMO should be about 14-14. Not 10-18.

The Minnesota loss was just disgusting to watch. Play Jamison, Butler, Arenas all 40 (or thereabouts) plus, and then watch as Minnesota grabs all the loose balls at the end. To have a game where the team gives a dispirited effort but not use all your bench ....

Flip IS DEFINITELY NOT OFF TO A GOOD START as far as I'm concerned.

The roster is on Grunfeld.

CCJ, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just disagree. Your opinion is predicated on the theory that McGee would be more effective than Jamison at PF. I just don't see any evidence to support that. Your opinion is also based on the notion that Butler and Jamison would play better at SG and SF than they do at SF and PF. I don't agree with that either.

With the exception of playing Young over Stevenson/Foye, I don't really see any major lineup change that is likely to improve our record. One can certainly argue that more minutes for the youngsters wouldn't make us much worse, and that it may help in the long term to play the youngsters even if it hurts us in the short term; but I don't think playing McGee would have actually improved our record. Flip can be blamed for being shortsighted, but I don't think he has cost us more games than any other decent coach would have in the same position.

Flip has come in here with a mandate to win immediately. It's hard to turn around and blame him for not grooming the youngsters.

+1, exactly how I feel.

[Hoopalotta]

I dunno. I think Bosh is good enough to build a team around. He's still relatively young as well. Bottom line is he is match up hell for opponents, rebounds well, is a solid citizen and defends the rim pretty well.

But we gotta put the salaries in a spreadsheet before we talk about what it looks line on the court.

Suppose we trade Butler, Blatche and McGee for Bosh straight up (and the rumors are it would take more), give him a max deal, sign our first rounder, bring back Wood and Miller for $8 $ $6 million a year and Dom at the minimum. We have 9 players under contract with only five established guys not counting Young and the team costs about $72 million. Add four veteran minimum guys and we're at $75 million.

The Tax threshold might be as low as $62 million, so we have an $88 million dollar team with no depth and three starters over 30.

That's the reality of it.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I dunno. I think Bosh is good enough to build a team around. He's still relatively young as well. Bottom line is he is match up hell for opponents, rebounds well, is a solid citizen and defends the rim pretty well.

But we gotta put the salaries in a spreadsheet before we talk about what it looks line on the court.

Suppose we trade Butler, Blatche and McGee for Bosh straight up (and the rumors are it would take more), give him a max deal, sign our first rounder, bring back Wood and Miller for $8 $ $6 million a year and Dom at the minimum. We have 9 players under contract with only five established guys not counting Young and the team costs about $72 million. Add four veteran minimum guys and we're at $75 million.

The Tax threshold might be as low as $62 million, so we have an $88 million dollar team with no depth and three starters over 30.

That's the reality of it.

Hoopalotta, IMO Bosh in means BOTH Butler and Jamison are out.

I'd even go as far as trading Gil.

With Bosh, Haywood, and just decent players elsewhere--and Washington would have a better team than this one. They get a low post threat who can attack the defensive glass, who can score on the block, and who can also hit the midrange shot. Bosh needs a big like Haywood--not Bargnani.

[montestewart]

^
I know he plays a different position and brings a different game, but personally, I think Bosh falls well short of Lebron, Wade, and Paul, and I doubt I'd get too much dispute; in some ways Bosh reminds me of Webber with a narrower skill set but slicker offensive moves. My point is that those three haven't dragged a team to a championship by themselves, and neither has Bosh. Maybe if he's paired with one of them, or even with a rejuvenated (or nearly so) Arenas, that might be a championship team, but putting two max contracts on one team and trying to build around it seems a risky approach that could tie up the franchise for years. Better to add a max contract to a clearly good team that's willing to roll the dice to get over the hump. Maybe bringing in Bosh and getting rid of Arenas is the answer, but moving Arenas' contract is easier said than done.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

monte, I think Gil's contract isn't going to be that hard to move at all if he stays healthy.

Washington will need to pick up one sorta bad contract--like that of somebody like Maggette, Eddy Curry, Jared Jeffries, and to trade for a dud of an expiring deal.

I think what the Wizards really need to do is look for players like Sessions, Darren Collison, Eric Maynor, Tony Douglas--guys who have a fire and passion to them. A competitiveness about them. Trade for them.

Gil needs to be pretty much healthy and to go to a team that wants to put butts in the seats.

Philly would trade for him right now, but I don't want a broken Brand.

I think Gil's not that far from being very tradeable.

[montestewart]

^
I agree, if Arenas plays well, someone will recognize his worth and go for it, but it is a huge contract with 4 more years on it. It's not going to be a long line, and I'd want something back (some combination of expirings and future assets). Even with Arenas gone, I'm not sold on Bosh being any sure thing. He's an exceptional player, but like I said, to me, Lebron, Wade, and Paul are better, and they can't drag a team to a championship. It would still take a great run of right moves and luck.

I also wonder whether Arenas could be a better player with a different supporting cast, more selfless (more Mike Miller types, fewer "gimme the ball" types). Maybe Arenas, Bosh, Haywood, and a cast of no-names like that could make some noise, but you sure couldn't pay the others much.

With Arenas out of there, who might be a likely PG to run things?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Right now, I think the best course is to keep Arenas all season and see what he can do with Miller.

I'd like to see both Butler and Jamison go for cap relief, young talent, and/or picks.

Miller and Haywood with Gil, and with closer Foye and decent sub Blatche should be good for a few wins. If the Wizards could add some scrappers who can scor a bit around them they'd be good to go.

[Hoopalotta]

If we find ourselves in position to get a max guy off another team, it should be the culmination of a systemic and rational plan rather than an in-season about face in which we send out a veteran core. This teams problems are too fundamental to be fixed by anything other than a patient approach. The quickest fix we should even think about is to go after a guy like Melo in 2011 and even that just needs to be a supplemental strategy that we HOPE works out rather.

But we add a guy like that onto a foundation of multiple draft picks on cheap rookie deals which gives us a sustainable future, not by trading away what little youth we have in a Home-Run trade. We trade 'Dray and Gee to get Bosh, we have two guys on the team under 25 (barely), maybe three after the draft. If we cash in our vets for picks and prospects and go after Melo in 2011, we could have seven or eight.

To immediately try and win with a new core is going to get our foot further and further down the rabbit hole.

[Ruzious]

Guys, can we keep the trade ideas to the trade thread?

Now, I'll be a hypocrite - enough with the Bosh trade ideas. There's no chance. I won't even get into whether we have what it takes to get him. There's just too tiny a chance that he'd re-up here. He's said all along (unlike Amare) that he's going to test free agency. If he doesn't end up in NY, I'd be very surprised.

Back on topic, Flip's comments were right on - for a head coach - and I commend him for making them. However, for a GM... there's no way that it's acceptable to have a team this expensive and this experienced to be a WIP - work in process. The GM has put the coach in this situation, so I'm not going to blame Flip for the team's woes. While I do agree with CCJ on some of the tactical issues/errors, the biggest problems are with the personnel Flip has to work with.