Official Trade Thread XXI (12/13/12 - 02/06/13)

[nate33]

How exactly are you going to do that?

"Hey, excuse me Mr. Opposing Coach. I would like for you to have your big slow PF guard Rudy Gay and put your quick SF on Chris Singleton, even though both of us know that Chris Singleton can't create off the dribble and shoots south of 30% from 3-point range."

It doesn't work that way. The opposition will put a SF on Gay and a PF on Singleton. You can't create mismatches just by labeling Gay the PF.

Last season he was shooting 35% from 3...he cant create his own shot but he's athletic and can drive...plus if singleton is getting chased by a pf on the perimeter...whos left in the hole by himself?...a 7ft banger named okafor...

It's like arguing with a brick wall.

The opposing team won't have their PF chase Singleton around the perimeter because he isn't worth chasing. They will have an advantage on defense because Singleton's defender will play free safety. They will have the advantage on offense because their PF will post up Singleton and beat him on the offensive glass.

If things were so easy, every team would play SF's at PF just to create a mismatch. It only works if you have the right SF/PF (like Melo or Lebron) and you have the right kind of SF (like Battier) who can stretch the floor with an accurate, quick-release 3-point shot.

The real problem with you plan is that you bend over backwards to get Gay at PF, only to replace him at SF with Chris freaking Singleton: the worst starter in the NBA. At the very least, put Martell Webster at SF so we could at least reap the benefits on offense. (We would still get crushed on the glass because Gay can't rebound.)

[deneem4]

You would be great assistance coaches for Wittman..the way you look at the game is extremely one dimensional...
Rudy would thrive at pf...he's no carmelo but he can draw as much attention and can score well in isos
He also have great defense in iso against other sf because of his size and length 39% opp fg...I doubt he'll be bullied against pf
As for singleton he's extremely strong for his size...like most of the roster the wizards dont know how to use his advantages...thats why were last in the league...and I have no doubt he will hit open jumpers if his man sags off
Beal wall and rudy is enough offense...every good team starts a defensive specialist...thats why theyre good teams...

lakers have all that talent but player roles are nonexistent...thats how the heat started...thats how the knicks were with amare...thats why the thunder and clippers are the best teams...thats why Chicago is still relevant and mil is looking like a good team...thats why memephis wants to trade rudy...player roles....
On offense wall distributes...beal shoots...singleton stay opposite side of ball...rudy shoots...okafor posts.
On defense rudy or singleton play passing lanes gambler(whoever on the weaker shooter)while wall and beal play tight...okafor guards hole...

Its all about player roles...something Wittman havent heard of...something the wizards showed in the thunder win (seraphin repetitive hook shot over the league best shot blocker)(Okafor staying in paint on defense)

Look what was said about blatche...he couldn't rebound n was a liability on defense...look at him now

[LyricalRico]

I always wondered what diderotn re-incarnated would look like. Well, now we know. LOL

[Ruzious]

This season, Gay has among the least least efficient scorers in the NBA (particularly among starters) - and that's playing on a very good Memphis team. There's just no reason to believe that he'll do well on a team with far less capable teammates. And I'm talking as someone who thought he'd become an outstanding player. He's in what should be his peak years. Most likely, it's just not going to happen for him - no matter if he's paid less than 5 mil a year or near 20 mil a year - which is arguably the single worst contract in American sports.

[nate33]

I give up. deneem4 is clearly smarter than me, than Wittman, and Lionel Hollins (the coach of Memphis). Gay has been playing SF all of his life out of sheer stupidity. If only deneem4 had been around earlier to stop everybody from making such a catastrophic mistake. And to think, it'll only cost Leonsis $17M a year to reap the rewards of deneem's brilliant plan.

[jivelikenice]

Regarding Gay, again it is tempting....I totally understand he hasn't played up to his potential and his stats this year are poor, but you can't look at stats alone. Being a gm isn't as simple as that. You have to look at how he would fit the the parts you'd have left, your system, and if you feel a fresh start would rejuvenate him. I don't pretend to know the answers here, but I know he's an elite level talent (maybe not performer), and if you can get him for basically Jordan Crawford/ Okafor/ and Singleton, you have to consider it.

[LyricalRico]

I don't pretend to know the answers here, but I know he's an elite level talent (maybe not performer), and if you can get him for basically Jordan Crawford/ Okafor/ and Singleton, you have to consider it.

Interesting take. Would a trade of our spare parts for Rudy really be a talent upgrade for the team? If so, is it enough to warrant taking on the extra year of salary? If the answer is yes, then let's make the offer.

[deneem4]

I give up. deneem4 is clearly smarter than me, than Wittman, and Lionel Hollins (the coach of Memphis). Gay has been playing SF all of his life out of sheer stupidity. If only deneem4 had been around earlier to stop everybody from making such a catastrophic mistake. And to think, it'll only cost Leonsis $17M a year to reap the rewards of deneem's brilliant plan.

Carmelo been playing sf his whole career...look at his pf production...n im def smarter than u and wittman...we are cleary talkin pf for a washington team with nene traded

[nate33]

Carmelo outweighs Gay by about 25 pounds.

[LyricalRico]

...n im def smarter than u and wittman...

This thread is awesome!

[deneem4]

Carmelo outweighs Gay by about 25 pounds.

They're both 230 and rudy has larger wingspan

[nate33]

Basketball reference lists Melo at 230 and Gay at 220. I was wrong about the 25 pound difference, but there is a difference. Also Melo averaged 7.3 and 7.6 boards per 36 in his last years in Denver. Gay averages 5.8 boards per 36.

If it makes you feel any better, I agree that Gay could play some stretches at PF in a small ball configuration. Most teams do that late in games when you need to score. But in order for that to make sense, we would need a true floor-stretching SF to play alongside him. That's Webster, not Singleton. I also think it's not a wise plan to do it full time because we will get beat on the glass, Gay will get posted up in the paint, and he'll wear down and get hurt.

But this whole debate is secondary. The real issue is whether or not Gay is worth anything close to $17M no matter where he plays. I say he really isn't any better than any of the mid-tier SF's in the game like Kawhi Leonard, Luol Deng, Nicolas Batum, Shawn Marion, Chandler Parsons etc. who typically cost $6-9M a year. I question whether he's much better than Martell Webster.

[deneem4]

Thats with the two monsters Gasol and Randolph downlow

Yes Martell has been playing great but he's not confident in his self when the more ball dominant players are on the floor...I believe he can be a top 10 sf if he was more assertive and aggressive and commanded the ball more...he has the talent and skill...

As for being better than gay I disagree...both the grizzlies big men are excellent scores and work relatively close inside the paint...gasol can space the floor a bit but randolph will always be close downlow...with the other sf you mentioned they have great scoring and playmaking pgs(and or good shooting pf) which opens the spacing up more for them... (dirk in marion case)...most of the grizz points usally comes from they're bigs and rudy....which makes teams focus on keeping the paint locked down and makes rudy take more jump shots and or contested layups because of the emphasis on low post and paint defense...thats why its harder for rudy to be an allstar because of the very good offensive bigs and more defensive guards the grizzlies have...and thats why they're looking to trade him...

Its not always about the player but more about the players surrounding them...

Rudy pf stats) http://www.82games.com/1213/12MEM8.HTM#bypos

[popper]

Gay at $17 M would be the final nail in the coffin for this organization. I continue to believe that there are trades for Okafor, Ariza and fillers out there that will happen before the deadline that won't further hamstring the team.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Ok enough Rudy Gay talk, we don't want that guy. He's getting max money for borderline All-star production. We need to focus how we can get Demarcus Cousins in Dc.

[jivelikenice]

But this whole debate is secondary. The real issue is whether or not Gay is worth anything close to $17M no matter where he plays. I say he really isn't any better than any of the mid-tier SF's in the game like Kawhi Leonard, Luol Deng, Nicolas Batum, Shawn Marion, Chandler Parsons etc. who typically cost $6-9M a year. I question whether he's much better than Martell Webster.

Nate, I don't know if the real issue is whether he's worth 17 M. I think the real questions are:
1. Can we keep a core of Beal, Wall, Gay, Seraphin, Néne, and our first rd pick together and stay under the luxury tax? I think we could based on what I've read as long as we fill the roster out with Webster, Vesely, Satoransky types. Further relief will come when Néne and Gay expire (and we likely will be able to re-sign Gay for less when his contract is up.) A lot of variables

2. How good could that team be? I think they could be dangerous with wall, beal, and gay on the perimeter with two low post players...not to mention the lotto pick we'll have this year. If Either Beal or Wall can make the leap to stardom, it's a dangerous squad.

3. Can Rudy improve his level of play based on how we would use him and the change in environment?

[nate33]

Nate, I don't know if the real issue is whether he's worth 17 M. I think the real questions are:
1. Can we keep a core of Beal, Wall, Gay, Seraphin, Néne, and our first rd pick together and stay under the luxury tax?

No. That's the kind of thinking that gets us in trouble. Opportunity cost is the issue. Even if we could just barely fit everything under the luxtax, we can't predict the opportunities that we would end up missing because of our salary situation. The only time a team should ignore opportunity cost is if the acquisition in question would be the final piece that completes a championship team (because, if you are a championship team, you're not worried about future acquisitions). Clearly, we are a few steps away from that point.

[deneem4]

Ok enough Rudy Gay talk, we don't want that guy. He's getting max money for borderline All-star production. We need to focus how we can get Demarcus Cousins in Dc.

Seraphin crawford and 2nd rd draft pick

[LyricalRico]

+1

I'd do that Cousins deal yesterday. Not sure Sacto accepts, though. Another problem is I wonder if they will make any decisions on Cousins at all with the ownership changing hands.

[Ruzious]

+1

I'd do that Cousins deal yesterday. Not sure Sacto accepts, though. Another problem is I wonder if they will make any decisions on Cousins at all with the ownership changing hands.

I'll be sure for both of us that they won't do it.

My humble awesomeness allows it.

While he's got a very significant efficiency problem, his productivity numbers cause the perception that he's a very valuable property.