Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall is overrated compared to Cousins, who I think is underrated.

Attitude issues? He played on well Team USA after Wall and Beal got cut. He hasn't missed a game this season for disciplinary reasons. He's had consecutive triple doubles including assists (Great teammates pass the ball). He's had three straight games with more than 20 rebounds. (Rebounds require effort).

No. Some people repeat tired narratives because they are uninformed or determined to stay a hater. Cousins is an all star and a terrific player. People love Kevin Love and his team never sniffed playoffs.

Offer Nene, Pierce, this year's first and two future firsts. Keep Wall, Beal, and Porter. Keep Gortat.

Overnight the Wizards would be a 60-win team with that core.

If they could do it like that. That would be hard to pass up.

So you have Cousins playing with Gortat with Cousins at PF ?

Wall, Beal, Otto, Cousins, Gortat ?

Yes.

MUCH BETTER would be a lineup of Wall, Beal, Otto, John Henson, Cousins.

However, for the short run if Gooden can play well with Gortat why can't Cousins play even better? Boogie beats guys off the dribble and he establishes deep post position. He's a TERRIFIC passer. The key to it working, however, is that Gortat has good enough mobility to be the one to start from the outside and work he way in, just like a PF.

Defensively, they'd have some problems but none too big that their rebounding, passing, superior basketball IQ, ability to draw fouls, and just synergy between Boogie and John Wall wouldn't overcome.

Obviously, Cousins would play a lot of C when Gortat is on the bench.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall is overrated compared to Cousins, who I think is underrated.

Attitude issues? He played on well Team USA after Wall and Beal got cut. He hasn't missed a game this season for disciplinary reasons. He's had consecutive triple doubles including assists (Great teammates pass the ball). He's had three straight games with more than 20 rebounds. (Rebounds require effort).

No. Some people repeat tired narratives because they are uninformed or determined to stay a hater. Cousins is an all star and a terrific player. People love Kevin Love and his team never sniffed playoffs.

Offer Nene, Pierce, this year's first and two future firsts. Keep Wall, Beal, and Porter. Keep Gortat.

Overnight the Wizards would be a 60-win team with that core.

Happy to get rid of Nene and to trade Pierce. But 3 first round draft choices? No thank you!

Nor do I think we'd be a 60 win team. Has nothing to do w/ his "attitude", but overall Cousins doesn't put up as good numbers as you suggest, CCJ.

The two key areas for numbers are scoring efficiency (not points scored alone, but points scored *efficiently*) and ball possession numbers (rebounding, especially on the offensive side*, minus turnovers, plus steals).

19 guys play C 30+ minutes per game. Where does he stand among them in these 2 areas?

Scoring Efficiency: only two of the 19 (Nerlens Noel & Noah) have a worse eFG%. In TS% he's a little better at 13th out of 19.

Ball Possession Numbers: Cousins is an excellent defensive rebounder, a meh offensive rebounder, and above all an absolute turnover machine. On average, the other 18 guys on the list turn the ball over 2.13 times per 40 minutes. Cousins does it 5 times. That's way more than twice as often as the other 18 Centers playing 30+ minutes a game. He's actually pretty good at steals, but the numbers are too small in that category to make a difference.

To understand the impact of this, lets compare total offensive rebounds plus steals minus turnovers for DeAndre Jordan and Cousins: Jordan is +5.3 on that combo. Cousins is +0.5. (Jordan also gets more defensive boards than Cousins).

A few other guys: Kanter is +4.4; Chandler is +4; Drummond is +6.3.

DeMarcus Cousins is incredibly gifted. But he doesn't play the game the right way. He likes to handle the ball, make dribble moves while he's away from the bucket, and shoot jump shots. He also fouls more than any of those other 18 guys.

pif, would Cousins handle the ball anywhere near as much on a team with John Wall?

Who else should be making plays on that Kings' roster?

Is it POSSIBLE that Cousins has terrible teammates?

Isn't is also possible with better teammates Cousins would be much more prone to focus on rebounding and defense, rather than forcing shots?

LASTLY, I'm well aware of Cousins' high turnovers, extremely high usage, very high fouls, and his relatively low WS/48. You say his numbers aren't as good as I think. Okay, I will address you in the same manner as you've addressed me.

payitforward, (maybe) you don't know how good his numbers really are.

How do explain this statistic? http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/9

[TGW]

Rudy Gay is better than anyone on the Wizards outside of Wall. Collison is also solid. McClemore is also about as good as Beal.

Not buying the horrible teammates theory. Cousins has officially ran out of excuses.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Team USA. All Star. Top Ten in a BUNCH of NBA categories. PER is in the top 5 or 6. Plus/Minus the best among centers.

TGW, what's he need to apologize for?

[TGW]

Team USA. All Star. Top Ten in a BUNCH of NBA categories. PER is in the top 5 or 6. Plus/Minus the best among centers.

TGW, what's he need to apologize for?

How many playoff wins does he have though? What's his regular season record? Hmmm...and he barely made the all-star game. If Kobe wasn't injured...

Would like to see one of those things translate into WINS! I've been saying that dude is a loser, and so far he's proven me right.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

[thricethefun]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

You are forgetting Cousins had Isaiah Thomas who is probably the sixth man of the year this year. Yea Cousins didn't have much talent around him and I wouldn't expect him to make the playoffs but at least contend for a spot. And for such a great player not to break the 30 win mark in his entire career with his team is telling. He's not that great. Look at what Anthony Davis is doing this year with a not so good roster in New Orleans. Look what Wall was able to do when he returned from injury in 2012-2013 season. We would've made the playoffs that year if Wall was healthy as we pretty much played .500 ball when he returned the court. Even Kevin Love was able to carry his team to respectability and have 40+ win seasons albeit still not making the playoffs in his last few seasons with the Wolves. Cousins is just not the type of player you blow up the roster for.

[hands11]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

You are forgetting Cousins had Isaiah Thomas who is probably the sixth man of the year this year. Yea Cousins didn't have much talent around him and I wouldn't expect him to make the playoffs but at least contend for a spot. And for such a great player not to break the 30 win mark in his entire career with his team is telling. He's not that great. Look at what Anthony Davis is doing this year with a not so good roster in New Orleans. Look what Wall was able to do when he returned from injury in 2012-2013 season. We would've made the playoffs that year if Wall was healthy as we pretty much played .500 ball when he returned the court. Even Kevin Love was able to carry his team to respectability and have 40+ win seasons albeit still not making the playoffs in his last few seasons with the Wolves. Cousins is just not the type of player you blow up the roster for.

Kevin Love 2.0

Or

Shaq

One thing you have to take into consideration that would be important is, Boogie with Wall is more likely to be the best Boogie you can get. Boogie will partner with Wall. Get on the same page. Listen. Boggie in SAC is the best player on the team that has been bad for a while. Boogie in DC is another core piece.

Now for the concerns. It bothers me with is court body language. He walks around to much. I also think he could be in better shape.

My view on Boogie since draft day was... talented.. but I would rather have him after he has been in the league 4-5 years. And he likely to want to team up with Wall eventually anyways so way use up a draft pick.

I think he is hungry to win. Put him in the right situation, and he would fall in line. And the right situation would be with Wall if there ever was one.

Now on the other side. Why give up to much when he is likely going to want to team up with Wall as a walk on as soon as he can. Even if SAC trade him someplace else.

Thats what needs vetted. Risk/Reward. Pay now or invest in other things and possibly get him later if thats the best option. Hell, it might get to the point he demands a trade and his cost to acquire goes way down.

But this should be fully debated.

[hands11]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

CCJ

Why waste your time trying to reason with people who have no interest in reasoning or having an honest debate.

I'm sure you will find plenty of posters that will have an honest debate with you.

[TGW]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

Is that your default when you get proven wrong? Resort to calling people a hater? Ok CCJ, whatever you say. I'll let Cousins disappointing career speak for itself, while you continue to scream at the "haters" from your soapbox.

102 wins - 210 losses....that is Cousins' record as an NBA player.

[payitforward]

Good data on Cousins PIFF. And that's the issue. ...

Could he be molded into an efficient player ... That's the question.

...it would most likely happen while paired with Wall. ... So the data ...is backward looking as data always is. What we would need to evaluate and project is, what would he do if he was here.

...Cousins with Wall is a Cousins I'm not sure any other team would get. But its the Cousins we would get. That's important to remember. ... I can see how it would work out ....

Hands -- I excerpted for simplicity in addressing what you say.

Yup, all data is backward-looking! And any human being is capable of surprising you! But, it's hard to find examples of guys whose overall game changed as radically as Cousins' game would have to change to realize that hope.

Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but it certainly does mean that it's a long shot, and therefore a very risky bet. And especially because Cousins is a) expensive and b) over-rated (i.e. likely to command bigger and bigger dollars).

In other words, there's no reliable "project(ion of)... what he would do... here" if you mean what he'd do *different.* You can hope for something, and you can have a picture in your mind. But neither of those is known for working out at a high rate!

YMMV, but I take a pass on DeMarcus Cousins -- despite his enormous gifts.

[stevemcqueen1]

Cousins is a dominant player but he's not a leader and that's what Sacramento needs. They haven't had it since they drafted him. Maybe George Karl fills the void, but Cousins is such a poor fit for Karl that it already seems like he's tuning him out. He's checked out of Sacramento and it's clear he needs a change of scenery. He shouldn't have signed his extension.

That crap TGW said about his teammates is ridiculous. McLemore isn't close to as good as Beal is right now and Darren Collison is a journeyman back up PG. Rudy Gay is the loser, if anyone is. The team is a slapdash mess where none of the pieces fit together very well.

You don't dismantle your team for Cousins. But adding him to our existing core would make us dominant.

[Ruzious]

I think the real issue is what it would cost to get Cousins - if he were really available. And I gotta wonder why they would settle for 3 late firsts and 2 guys way over the hill - especially when they probably wouldn't use the cap space once they get it. I would think they'd insist on a prime asset to be included - such as a high lotto pick and a quality young player - and there would be teams that would offer that. We definitely have no chance to get him for Nene, Pierce, and 3 late firsts. If we did, I'd do in less than a heartbeat.

[Induveca]

Porter, 2015 1st/2nd, Nene

It's a great deal for the Wizards if they see something they like around our slot. I'd be absolutely fine throwing Beal in instead. His value isn't exactly skyrocketing. We can find a SG via free agency. I did like the idea of Danny Green, at least he knows his limitations.

Wall/Sesssions
Green/Whatever
Porter/Pierce
Cousins/Humphries
Gortat/Cousins

Can't pass that up.

[stevemcqueen1]

I think the real issue is what it would cost to get Cousins - if he were really available. And I gotta wonder why they would settle for 3 late firsts and 2 guys way over the hill - especially when they probably wouldn't use the cap space once they get it. I would think they'd insist on a prime asset to be included - such as a high lotto pick and a quality young player - and there would be teams that would offer that. We definitely have no chance to get him for Nene, Pierce, and 3 late firsts. If we did, I'd do in less than a heartbeat.

I saw Wizards fans posit Gortat + Beal/Porter + three firsts

I'd do it for Porter but not Beal. Doubt that would get it done though.

[miller31time]

Whatever they want, minus Wall, is fine with me.

Porter, Nene and 1st's? Done deal.

Beal, Gortat? Done deal.

Anything and everything is a-okay with me. We need a major talent infusion. I've always been of the opinion that you put your superstars in place first and worry about EVERYTHING else later. Get Wall and Cousins on the same team and worry about building around them later.

[stevemcqueen1]

Porter, 2015 1st/2nd, Nene

It's a great deal for the Wizards if they see something they like around our slot. I'd be absolutely fine throwing Beal in instead. His value isn't exactly skyrocketing. We can find a SG via free agency. I did like the idea of Danny Green, at least he knows his limitations.

Wall/Sesssions
Green/Whatever
Porter/Pierce
Cousins/Humphries
Gortat/Cousins

Can't pass that up.

Trading Beal for Cousins dismantles the foundation of Wall + Beal. That is way too much to bet on Cousins. The guy is a loose cannon and the concerns about his leadership are valid. Maybe even more valid than they were with Kevin Love, who never checked out on a team like Cousins has.

If Gortat/Nene + Porter and picks doesn't get it done, then I'd pass and wait for the dude to hit free agency.

[stevemcqueen1]

Whatever they want, minus Wall, is fine with me.

Porter, Nene and 1st's? Done deal.

Beal, Gortat? Done deal.

Anything and everything is a-okay with me. We need a major talent infusion. I've always been of the opinion that you put your superstars in place first and worry about EVERYTHING else later. Get Wall and Cousins on the same team and worry about building around them later.

I think you have to worry about Cousins first and foremost. That guy is a destabilizing element and selling out the foundation of winning we've actually managed to claw out to get him and Wall on the same team is not a good idea IMO. His total lack of leadership qualities is scary and reflected in his team's awful W/L record since they drafted him. Sacramento has been trying to build around him for five years now and he's proven he is simply not that guy.

Your foundation players must be leaders to win. That makes him a complimentary piece, and teams that treat him like he is the foundation are going to be in trouble. That's why I'd only add him to our team when a strong foundation of leadership and a winning culture is already in place.

[stevemcqueen1]

The other thing is the center has got to be the leader of the defense and be willing to do the dirty work inside. That's something Gortat has done that goes under-appreciated. Cousins, with no Nene or Gortat to lead him and cover for him scares me. He is very inconsistent with his effort and his focus. He needs somebody to keep him accountable and pick up his slack when he goes into one of his phases and just checks out.

[miller31time]

Whatever they want, minus Wall, is fine with me.

Porter, Nene and 1st's? Done deal.

Beal, Gortat? Done deal.

Anything and everything is a-okay with me. We need a major talent infusion. I've always been of the opinion that you put your superstars in place first and worry about EVERYTHING else later. Get Wall and Cousins on the same team and worry about building around them later.

I think you have to worry about Cousins first and foremost. That guy is a destabilizing element and selling out the foundation of winning we've actually managed to claw out to get him and Wall on the same team is not a good idea IMO. His total lack of leadership qualities is scary and reflected in his team's awful W/L record since they drafted him. Sacramento has been trying to build around him for five years now and he's proven he is simply not that guy.

Your foundation players must be leaders to win. That makes him a complimentary piece, and teams that treat him like he is the foundation are going to be in trouble. That's why I'd only add him to our team when a strong foundation of leadership and a winning culture is already in place.

Plenty of players get labeled cancers but few actually are. I attribute Sacramento's terrible record with him to the fact that they have done a terrible job building around him. Who is the most talented player he's ever played with? Rudy Gay? Isaiah Thomas? Tyreke Evans? That's downright awful.

Cousins is an excellent player who has the potential to get even better. Point guard and center are the two most important positions in basketball and we'd have both covered with superstar talent.