Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[keynote]

If everyone on the Cavs besides Sexton is truly available, I would totally give them Oubre+2019 1st+Mahinmi for Larry Nance and George Hill.

Wall Hill
Beal Rivers
Sato Brown
Porter Green
Howard Nance

Did you Thanos away Morris? If we did that trade, we'd start Morris at the 4 and slide Sato to the backup 3. I like Sato, but I don't think he's so effective at the 3 as to completly supplant Morris in the rotation.

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[payitforward]

If everyone on the Cavs besides Sexton is truly available, I would totally give them Oubre+2019 1st+Mahinmi for Larry Nance and George Hill.

Wall Hill
Beal Rivers
Sato Brown
Porter Green
Howard Nance

Did you Thanos away Morris? If we did that trade, we'd start Morris at the 4 and slide Sato to the backup 3. I like Sato, but I don't think he's so effective at the 3 as to completly supplant Morris in the rotation.

Open to debate I suppose... but the real problem is that I doubt Nance is actually available. Losing LeBron they need some kind of feel-good story & some kind of identity.

Larry Nance was a life-long Cavalier, & they've given Jr. his jersey #. He's a terrific player, but beyond that he has emotional value for them. I don't think there's much chance they'd trade him -- no chance this year, I'd say.

[NatP4]

If everyone on the Cavs besides Sexton is truly available, I would totally give them Oubre+2019 1st+Mahinmi for Larry Nance and George Hill.

Wall Hill
Beal Rivers
Sato Brown
Porter Green
Howard Nance

Did you Thanos away Morris? If we did that trade, we'd start Morris at the 4 and slide Sato to the backup 3. I like Sato, but I don't think he's so effective at the 3 as to completly supplant Morris in the rotation.

Open to debate I suppose... but the real problem is that I doubt Nance is actually available. Losing LeBron they need some kind of feel-good story & some kind of identity.

Larry Nance was a life-long Cavalier, & they've given Jr. his jersey #. He's a terrific player, but beyond that he has emotional value for them. I don't think there's much chance they'd trade him -- no chance this year, I'd say.

I’m just going off the report that says everyone but Sexton is available. They didn’t treat Nance jr like he was very important in the playoffs, playing Tristan Thompson over him for some bizarre reason.

[pcbothwel]

Agreed.

I think the move is to stand pat until the deadline. Hopefully Meeks reverts back to form and becomes neutral value. Hope Oubre, Brown, and Sato look good enough to move Otto more to the 4 and trade Morris (Who I think will be healthy and a little better).

It is still very much doable to get under the tax assuming we use either Morris or Rivers to do so (I assume Morris).

[payitforward]

Well, if the GM said "everyone is available," then I guess everyone is available. But you see what I mean in saying that w/ LeBron gone, Nance gives them some kind of a marketing focus, right? Hence, even if available, they would have reason to want even more for him than his excellent production on the court would bring alone.

In any case, there is no way Ernie Grunfeld would trade the guy he moved up (paying a cost) to pick at #15 for the guy who went #27 in the same draft -- he doesn't do anything that shines a light on a mistake.

Plus, I think Nance will command a bigger second deal than Oubre; we can't afford that.

[Ruzious]

If everyone on the Cavs besides Sexton is truly available, I would totally give them Oubre+2019 1st+Mahinmi for Larry Nance and George Hill.

Wall Hill
Beal Rivers
Sato Brown
Porter Green
Howard Nance

Did you Thanos away Morris? If we did that trade, we'd start Morris at the 4 and slide Sato to the backup 3. I like Sato, but I don't think he's so effective at the 3 as to completly supplant Morris in the rotation.

Open to debate I suppose... but the real problem is that I doubt Nance is actually available. Losing LeBron they need some kind of feel-good story & some kind of identity.

Larry Nance was a life-long Cavalier, & they've given Jr. his jersey #. He's a terrific player, but beyond that he has emotional value for them. I don't think there's much chance they'd trade him -- no chance this year, I'd say.

Hopefully today's Cleveland fans know about Nance Sr, Brad Daugherty, Mark Price, and Hot Rod Williams. I'm guessing they know more about the Khardasians than the old Cavs.

[Dark Faze]

smh, we're actually deep enough now that I can't really think of who to trade Morris for

Wall/Sato
Beal/Rivers
Oubre/Brown Jr
Porter/Green
Dwight/Mahinmi/Smith

Insurance player: Devin Robinson to fill in at the wings if there's an injury.

Maybe there's a team with cap space that'd absorb Morris straight up for like, a late second

[NatP4]

smh, we're actually deep enough now that I can't really think of who to trade Morris for

Wall/Sato
Beal/Rivers
Oubre/Brown Jr
Porter/Green
Dwight/Mahinmi/Smith

Insurance player: Devin Robinson to fill in at the wings if there's an injury.

Maybe there's a team with cap space that'd absorb Morris straight up for like, a late second

That team looks soooo good when you just subtract Morris, other than Rivers, but hopefully he doesn’t play much anyways.

Imagine if they did the classic Ernie cleanup trade and moved Morris and Rivers+asset for a useful backup 2 like a Seth Curry.

Wall Sato
Beal Curry
Oubre Brown
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

[payitforward]

smh, we're actually deep enough now that I can't really think of who to trade Morris for

Wall/Sato
Beal/Rivers
Oubre/Brown Jr
Porter/Green
Dwight/Mahinmi/Smith

Insurance player: Devin Robinson to fill in at the wings if there's an injury.

Maybe there's a team with cap space that'd absorb Morris straight up for like, a late second

That team looks soooo good when you just subtract Morris, other than Rivers, but hopefully he doesn’t play much anyways.

Imagine if they did the classic Ernie cleanup trade and moved Morris and Rivers+asset for a useful backup 2 like a Seth Curry.

Wall Sato
Beal Curry
Oubre Brown
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Ummm, no. Troy Brown is not going to be (& should not be) our primary backup at the 3 -- no way. He looked like a talented kid (emphasis on "kid") in SL, if somewhat limited athletically.

Austin Rivers can't be primary backup at the 2 while we hope he doesn't play much. Beal played 4th most minutes in the NBA last year (about 70 minutes less than the very most minutes). He needs to play less.

Green is a veteran minimum player. I'm not sure what the Kool Aid is that is making people here think he's some cool & critical addition to this team -- he's not.

I'd be happy to trade Morris for a R2 pick (not a late one I hope) but not b/c the depth above has us "sooo good."

Worst of all... I don't see Thomas Bryant anywhere. He's a Wizard w/ a guaranteed contract.

[Ruzious]

smh, we're actually deep enough now that I can't really think of who to trade Morris for

Wall/Sato
Beal/Rivers
Oubre/Brown Jr
Porter/Green
Dwight/Mahinmi/Smith

Insurance player: Devin Robinson to fill in at the wings if there's an injury.

Maybe there's a team with cap space that'd absorb Morris straight up for like, a late second

That team looks soooo good when you just subtract Morris, other than Rivers, but hopefully he doesn’t play much anyways.

Imagine if they did the classic Ernie cleanup trade and moved Morris and Rivers+asset for a useful backup 2 like a Seth Curry.

Wall Sato
Beal Curry
Oubre Brown
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Ummm, no. Troy Brown is not going to be (& should not be) our primary backup at the 3 -- no way. He looked like a talented kid (emphasis on "kid") in SL, if somewhat limited athletically.

Austin Rivers can't be primary backup at the 2 while we hope he doesn't play much. Beal played 4th most minutes in the NBA last year (about 70 minutes less than the very most minutes). He needs to play less.

Green is a veteran minimum player. I'm not sure what the Kool Aid is that is making people here think he's some cool & critical addition to this team -- he's not.

I'd be happy to trade Morris for a R2 pick (not a late one I hope) but not b/c the depth above has us "sooo good."

Worst of all... I don't see Thomas Bryant anywhere. He's a Wizard w/ a guaranteed contract.

One of the major goals for the organization should be developing Bryant. But... I doubt that it will be one of the major goals of the organization. Not that he's a great prospect, but they have his rights for 2 seasons at a cheap price - he can be a useful player that takes over the minutes of Mahinmi - not right away - but hopefully sooner than later. Of course, they could have done the same thing with Christian Wood, but that's another discussion. At least they actually made the effort to acquire Bryant. It wasn't a "major acquisition", but small good moves can make a big difference, and you need to make them when you have 3 max contracts on your roster.

[NatP4]

smh, we're actually deep enough now that I can't really think of who to trade Morris for

Wall/Sato
Beal/Rivers
Oubre/Brown Jr
Porter/Green
Dwight/Mahinmi/Smith

Insurance player: Devin Robinson to fill in at the wings if there's an injury.

Maybe there's a team with cap space that'd absorb Morris straight up for like, a late second

That team looks soooo good when you just subtract Morris, other than Rivers, but hopefully he doesn’t play much anyways.

Imagine if they did the classic Ernie cleanup trade and moved Morris and Rivers+asset for a useful backup 2 like a Seth Curry.

Wall Sato
Beal Curry
Oubre Brown
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Ummm, no. Troy Brown is not going to be (& should not be) our primary backup at the 3 -- no way. He looked like a talented kid (emphasis on "kid") in SL, if somewhat limited athletically.

Austin Rivers can't be primary backup at the 2 while we hope he doesn't play much. Beal played 4th most minutes in the NBA last year (about 70 minutes less than the very most minutes). He needs to play less.

Green is a veteran minimum player. I'm not sure what the Kool Aid is that is making people here think he's some cool & critical addition to this team -- he's not.

I'd be happy to trade Morris for a R2 pick (not a late one I hope) but not b/c the depth above has us "sooo good."

Worst of all... I don't see Thomas Bryant anywhere. He's a Wizard w/ a guaranteed contract.

Because not everyone bases everything off of rebounds and TS%.

Green had a positive VORP, 15 PER, 3.9 win shares, ranked 27th in RPM for small forwards. He’s a massive upgrade from garbage Mike Scott, you just don’t think so because you pay no attention whatsoever to the defensive end of the court, which is also why you think Troy Brown can’t contribute right away even though he played excellent defense and rebounded in the summer league, bUt hIs tRuE ShOoTing!!!!!!!!

Obviously Satoransky can play the backup minutes at the 2, use a little common sense on that one.

Stats are stats, the team is significantly better with Oubre in place of Morris on a large sample size spanning over two seasons.

[payitforward]

That team looks soooo good when you just subtract Morris, other than Rivers, but hopefully he doesn’t play much anyways.

Imagine if they did the classic Ernie cleanup trade and moved Morris and Rivers+asset for a useful backup 2 like a Seth Curry.

Wall Sato
Beal Curry
Oubre Brown
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Ummm, no. Troy Brown is not going to be (& should not be) our primary backup at the 3 -- no way. He looked like a talented kid (emphasis on "kid") in SL, if somewhat limited athletically.

Austin Rivers can't be primary backup at the 2 while we hope he doesn't play much. Beal played 4th most minutes in the NBA last year (about 70 minutes less than the very most minutes). He needs to play less.

Green is a veteran minimum player. I'm not sure what the Kool Aid is that is making people here think he's some cool & critical addition to this team -- he's not.

I'd be happy to trade Morris for a R2 pick (not a late one I hope) but not b/c the depth above has us "sooo good."

Worst of all... I don't see Thomas Bryant anywhere. He's a Wizard w/ a guaranteed contract.

Because not everyone bases everything off of rebounds and TS%.

Green had a positive VORP, 15 PER, 3.9 win shares, ranked 27th in RPM for small forwards. He’s a massive upgrade from garbage Mike Scott, you just don’t think so because you pay no attention whatsoever to the defensive end of the court, which is also why you think Troy Brown can’t contribute right away even though he played excellent defense and rebounded in the summer league, bUt hIs tRuE ShOoTing!!!!!!!!

Obviously Satoransky can play the backup minutes at the 2, use a little common sense on that one.

Stats are stats, the team is significantly better with Oubre in place of Morris on a large sample size spanning over two seasons.

On your last point -- I don't doubt for a minute that we were & would be better w/ Oubre/Porter at the forwards instead of Porter/Morris. & I hope that would be even more the case this coming season, as we can expect development from Oubre.

You are right that Scott isn't a good player & wasn't for us. Then again, I wonder how far back in the thread about him I'd have to go to find you saying positive things about him? You'd know better than I....

My Thomas Bryant quip was just that, Nat -- a little humor. I just took you off Ignore, rook; do me a favor & be a little looser if you can. I'd rather keep you off.

How is VORP calculated? How are win shares calculated? How is RPM calculated? As soon as you can answer those questions, we'll have a way to consider what, if anything, they might mean.

As to Troy Brown, I'd be happy if he was able to contribute right away. But you've got him as the primary backup at the 3, which you'd like to see as part of "sooo good." Your argument that, sure, that's going to work is based on his play in Summer League. Summer League means nothing.

I certainly agree that we'd be better off w/ Sato as the primary backup at the 2 rather than Rivers -- way better off. Nor did I say anything to the contrary. But, we both know that adding Rivers will wind up cutting into Satoransky's minutes unfortunately.

[NatP4]

Ummm, no. Troy Brown is not going to be (& should not be) our primary backup at the 3 -- no way. He looked like a talented kid (emphasis on "kid") in SL, if somewhat limited athletically.

Austin Rivers can't be primary backup at the 2 while we hope he doesn't play much. Beal played 4th most minutes in the NBA last year (about 70 minutes less than the very most minutes). He needs to play less.

Green is a veteran minimum player. I'm not sure what the Kool Aid is that is making people here think he's some cool & critical addition to this team -- he's not.

I'd be happy to trade Morris for a R2 pick (not a late one I hope) but not b/c the depth above has us "sooo good."

Worst of all... I don't see Thomas Bryant anywhere. He's a Wizard w/ a guaranteed contract.

Because not everyone bases everything off of rebounds and TS%.

Green had a positive VORP, 15 PER, 3.9 win shares, ranked 27th in RPM for small forwards. He’s a massive upgrade from garbage Mike Scott, you just don’t think so because you pay no attention whatsoever to the defensive end of the court, which is also why you think Troy Brown can’t contribute right away even though he played excellent defense and rebounded in the summer league, bUt hIs tRuE ShOoTing!!!!!!!!

Obviously Satoransky can play the backup minutes at the 2, use a little common sense on that one.

Stats are stats, the team is significantly better with Oubre in place of Morris on a large sample size spanning over two seasons.

On your last point -- I don't doubt for a minute that we were & would be better w/ Oubre/Porter at the forwards instead of Porter/Morris. & I hope that would be even more the case this coming season, as we can expect development from Oubre.

You are right that Scott isn't a good player & wasn't for us. Then again, I wonder how far back in the thread about him I'd have to go to find you saying positive things about him? You'd know better than I....

My Thomas Bryant quip was just that, Nat -- a little humor. I just took you off Ignore, rook; do me a favor & be a little looser if you can. I'd rather keep you off.

How is VORP calculated? How are win shares calculated? How is RPM calculated? As soon as you can answer those questions, we'll have a way to consider what, if anything, they might mean.

As to Troy Brown, I'd be happy if he was able to contribute right away. But you've got him as the primary backup at the 3, which you'd like to see as part of "sooo good." Your argument that, sure, that's going to work is based on his play in Summer League. Summer League means nothing.

I certainly agree that we'd be better off w/ Sato as the primary backup at the 2 rather than Rivers -- way better off. Nor did I say anything to the contrary. But, we both know that adding Rivers will wind up cutting into Satoransky's minutes unfortunately.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html#vorp

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

This article isn’t very good

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus

Better:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cornerthreehoops.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/explaining-espns-real-plus-minus/amp/

[nate33]

One of the major goals for the organization should be developing Bryant. But... I doubt that it will be one of the major goals of the organization. Not that he's a great prospect, but they have his rights for 2 seasons at a cheap price - he can be a useful player that takes over the minutes of Mahinmi - not right away - but hopefully sooner than later. Of course, they could have done the same thing with Christian Wood, but that's another discussion. At least they actually made the effort to acquire Bryant. It wasn't a "major acquisition", but small good moves can make a big difference, and you need to make them when you have 3 max contracts on your roster.

Clarification. We have him for one year at a cheap price. We have the option of extending a very cheap qualifying offer for next year, but he's still a restricted free agent. If he goes out and finds a team who will sign him to a hefty contract, we would have to match that hefty contract to keep him. So technically, the 2nd year may not be all that cheap.

My guess is that Bryant won't play much, at least early on in the season. But if one of Howard or Mahinmi gets hurt, he'll get some burn as our 2nd string center. In a best-case scenario, he does well and proves that he's a legit NBA player and we end up resigning him to a new (and hopefully not too expensive) contract. If that happens, it would open up the possibility of us stretching Mahinmi's final year of his contract, turning a $15.4M cap hit into a $5.1M cap hit.

With Mahinmi's salary reduced, our cap hit would be $98M for Wall, Beal, Porter, Brown and Mahinmi's phantom salary. Let's assume Oubre, Bryant and Sato cost a combined $20M and our 2019 picks costs $2M. With a luxtax threshold expected to be around $133M, we would still have $13M to resign a few vets to round out the following roster:

PG Wall/Sato
SG Beal/Sato
SF Oubre/Brown
PF Porter/2019 pick
C Bryant

Given the number of free agents in the offseason, there are bound to be a few guys who get overlooked and we can sign for cheap.

[NatP4]

FUTURE

Wall Sato
Beal Sanon
Oubre Brown
Porter JONTAY PORTER!!!!!!
Bryant JONTAY PORTER!!!!!

[80sballboy]

FUTURE

Wall Sato
Beal Sanon
Oubre Brown
Porter JONTAY PORTER!!!!!!
Bryant JONTAY PORTER!!!!!

It's nice to have some future young talent-finally. It would be also nice if EG could find somebody on that two-way deal that can be a rotation guy. Highly doubtful we keep both Oubre and Sato. Hope we keep both though I think Brown takes over for Oubre in 2019-20. That's part of the reason they drafted him. I'm guessing Jontay Porter goes top 10 as well but it's early for that. We'll be drafting in the high teens probably.

[NatP4]

FUTURE

Wall Sato
Beal Sanon
Oubre Brown
Porter JONTAY PORTER!!!!!!
Bryant JONTAY PORTER!!!!!

It's nice to have some future young talent-finally. It would be also nice if EG could find somebody on that two-way deal that can be a rotation guy. Highly doubtful we keep both Oubre and Sato. Hope we keep both though I think Brown takes over for Oubre in 2019-20. That's part of the reason they drafted him. I'm guessing Jontay Porter goes top 10 as well but it's early for that. We'll be drafting in the high teens probably.

If they don’t plan on re signing Oubre, there’s just no excuse not to trade him at the deadline or even right now. I would wait to let him play up his value, but the most likely scenario with Ernie is something like:

1. Lets the market set oubre’s $

2. Market sets the $ too high, Ernie panics and re signs Oubre in order to not lose an asset for nothing

3. Ernie trades Otto because we are now overpaying Oubre.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

FUTURE

Wall Sato
Beal Sanon
Oubre Brown
Porter JONTAY PORTER!!!!!!
Bryant JONTAY PORTER!!!!!

Of course you do know that Ernie Grunfeld will still be GM when Jontay Porter is available on the draft board...and
the Wizards will pick someone else.



That's the future, right there. Don't get your hopes up too high is the safest bet.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

FUTURE

Wall Sato
Beal Sanon
Oubre Brown
Porter JONTAY PORTER!!!!!!
Bryant JONTAY PORTER!!!!!

It's nice to have some future young talent-finally. It would be also nice if EG could find somebody on that two-way deal that can be a rotation guy. Highly doubtful we keep both Oubre and Sato. Hope we keep both though I think Brown takes over for Oubre in 2019-20. That's part of the reason they drafted him. I'm guessing Jontay Porter goes top 10 as well but it's early for that. We'll be drafting in the high teens probably.

The team is better but for some reason I won't be surprised if we do draft lottery

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[No-Man]

What about, Oubre, Smith, Meeks, and a future 2nd (you can always buy them pretty much) for Skal, you basically drop all the way below the tax line, might be slightly over only, and the only cost is Kelly, who let's be honest, you aren't going to be able to keep next summer most likely

I'd probably try to make more drastic moves, but if the idea is to keep the Wall-Beal-Porter core and compete, that move makes some sense, you can try to groom Skal as a stretch-5, he doesn't have space to grown in Sacramento with Giles, WCS and Bagley really, and if he amounts nothing, you got below the tax for a reasonable price

As for the bench, you hope that having 2 big guards in Rivers and Sato helps with it, plus Jeff Green and playing more minutes of Troy Brown, and you can always gamble and sign some combo-F for stretching purposes, there are a few still out there.