Political Roundtable Part XXIV

[dckingsfan]

Dirt - that really was a red herring approach to answering the current questions about immigration. We continually don't deal with the issue - and that has led to the dreamers, it has led to individuals making terribly dangerous treks to get here, it has hurt business. Our lack of policy is really hurting lot's of people.

And a reminder - Mexico is becoming much less of an issue since NAFTA. There has been a net negative influx. But again, this is a red herring to the question of what should be our policy.

And I get that it is hard. But both parties literally have their collective heads in the sand on this issue. It's like they open their mouths and all they can do is scream without any words escaping.

I don't think it's outrageously cold or anything. I don't disagree with you regarding immigration in general. My point is more that immigration as an issue is given way too much play. Is a policy necessary? You betcha. The negatives associated with immigration are massively overstated, though. It's not totally different to how so many more people fear sharks and lightning than driving and yet we all know where people are more likely to die.

So yes, set up immigration policies. I agree with that. If immigration policies aren't followed by addressing the other far more serious issues, though, it won't matter what the policy is. Europe has ended birthright citizenship, built all sorts of fences and walls and such and people still find ways in.

I do disagree, though, that the issues happening right now are a failure to deal with immigration. Yes, society has failed to deal with immigration overall. Immigration policy tends to make people on both sides of the equation emotional overall which results in less reasoned takes. You mentioned NAFTA resulting in a net outmigration, that's sort of the point. Continuing down that path is going to have a far greater effect on immigration on the whole than any immigration policy ever well. It isn't a one or the other thing, though. It's definitely a package deal. Do both. Just don't ignore the reality that immigration policy isn't so far from controlling abortion. And go further than NAFTA. Support the Mexican government at a time when crime is a very serious economic and social issue for them (and not because of the immigration they're seeing which is far greater than an rather than using them as a political tool to try and build a wall. Heck, expand NAFTA and start looking at ways to include various Central American nations as well.

And I think you're overstating how many people have been hurt specifically by immigration. For the most part, these are the people who were going to be hurt no matter the situation. Immigration policy isn't going to change that reality, only potentially change how they're hurt, which is where the cold decisions have to come in no matter what. The reality is that the immigration policy that you and I generally agree upon is one that needs to be temporary by its very nature. It isn't sustainable for internal growth to rely on immigration in the long run. And in taking the skilled workers from other countries you invariably run the risk of exacerbating the social issues that are causing people to consider those long dangerous treks in the first place, which means potentially more immigration to deal with in the future. If immigration is dealt with as a one-off issue and the other issues continue to be mired in a political quagmire because there isn't the socio-political will for change, then it's largely going to be pointless. It will be interesting watching when the US changes birthright citizenship, because it will happen at some point. Canada will be the last holdout and will probably reconsider really quickly as immigrants will move there rather than the US. And when Canada changes, then the same issues will come full-circle.

I think immigration is certainly a top issue. Does it rank with deficit spending? Does it rank with healthcare cost drivers. Nope. But it is a substantial issue that needs to be dealt with... the non-policy has allowed a demagogue to use it to become POTUS. So, politically it is a top issue, no?

Xenophobic fears are real and I understand why you are reacting to that given our current POTUS.

But our lack of policy is just as damaging as this current POTUS - see the dreamers, see those who die on their trek to get here. And look at the disconnect between our immigration policy and our GDP and resultant loss of revenue to pay for services. It hurts everyone.

Casual dismissal of this issue is one of the reasons we have Trump. It bit Merkel as well.

[dckingsfan]

My life's story is very relavant...

---

No it isn't... it's anecdotal. And this is where you keep going into an illogic loop.

I have experience therefore my ideas/opinions are more relevant.

And that just isn't the case... no matter how many times you say it. Arguments (fx) are independent events that stand by themselves to logical scrutiny. And your arguments more often than not don't stand up to said scrutiny.

[dckingsfan]

From my perspective. I'm not sure that what we have been doing with immigration is so terrible. Granted I live in the DC area which generally has been insulated from economic downturns, since the central industry tends not to go out of business. But here in this area I have loved watching the cycles of immigration change the landscape and culture. Areas that were Indian, Chinese, and Cambodian became Salvadoran and Ethiopian. And their restaurants were also delicious. Their cultures were equally interesting. Their women also hard working and lovely. Their kids also cool. The Uber drivers can teach me a few words in their language and what they love and miss most about their countries and what they appreciate most about living here.

Their kids and mine go to the same schools and my daughter grows up with an older brother whose family is from Cambodia and whose friends were mostly Latino and Black Growing up. (You can say African American, but here that makes little sense since there are so many families of African ancestry, and even there you have to make a significant distinction from Eritrean, Cameroonian, Nigerian, Senegalese cultures, even if their kids are all in the same day care as mine. I think being culturally Black american is a thing. My wife's family was from Barbados and Puerto Rico and she identifies as Black, Caribbean, and Puerto Rican even if she grew up in MInnesota. Her parents saw themselves as Puerto Rican and Bajan, but growing up here is a different thing). My foster son thinks of himself as both Cambodian, and American. Calls my family his White family, even though his mom calls herself either PR or Black. Diversity is a good thing. I like the Gumbo of our society.

So. One Uber driver is now my plumber, since I learned from our West Indian garbagemen that all Caribbean guys have six or seven jobs and if they don't do it themselves they know someone who does. I have friends who work in the restaurant industry and all have to speak Spanish since the back of the house is primarily Latinos. Ditto construction. And somehow things get built. And the food is good.

Hell many of the kids my sons were friends with were in gangs. I knew about MS-13 before it became a national boogeyman. And some of the idiot kids who were in those gangs having machete fights in suburban apartment complexes,stopped that nonsense and ended up with jobs roofing houses and fixing cars and became peacemakers in their communities. Yes, some of them got locked up. So lawyers and judges and cops got paid for doing their jobs too. Justifying those budgets.

You know what's interesting? The gang members were mostly the legal kids of undocumented immigrants. The parents worked so damned hard at their jobs that the kids had all the unsupervised free time and American values and listened to the worst influences of our culture (glorifying materialism etc from advertising and gangsta rap and trap) that they saw their parents values of working all the time as kinda corny. Because their parents worked their tails off and had no time for touchy feely parenting and themselves were firm believers in corporal punishment, many of them. Teaching violence early. Interestingly, many of the parents happened to be survivors of torture and right wing death squads that our CIA trained in Central America in the School for the Americas (Nicaragua and Salvador especially). It made perfect sense that these kids and the Cambodian kids (parents surviving Pol Pot) became good friends and were comfortable with violence having seen it at home from their PTSD survivor parents.

I don't know. Life is messy. But I think if the economy is good, all problems ease out and even out. And I think if we can do a better job exporting and promoting and living up to the civic values of our founding documents, we don't have to worry so much about losing our culture. People move here with a wish to live a better life. If our country is less about what food you eat and music you listen to or what accent you have, and more about valuing hard work and making a life with the opportunities you are given, then we don't have to worry so much about what an American looks like. He can be brown and mixed and pale and who cares, so long as he have something to contribute to society.

If I had an answer it would be doing better PR for incoming immigrants.

Solid post but I don't agree. I think we do have problems with immigration (some of them are):

1) Dreamers and the repetitive cycle they represent
2) Tragedy for the individuals that are exploited by coyotes or die in the desert in transit
3) xenophobia of immigrants, reducing the number of immigrants we really need
4) not the proper balance of immigrants with respect to skills, demographics and country representation

Of course, I think we need more immigrants. I think we need smart immigration. What is fascinating to me is this only comes up because we don't have a "reasonable" policy and it was exploited by a demagogue. It literally took Trump (and his worse than stupid policies) for many to realize we have a problem.

[Ruzious]

Maybe the politically expedient solution would to create a position like an immigration czar and finiding the right person for it. It might not being a good idea, but it might be one that helps politically and takes the heat off the presidential candidate.

[dckingsfan]

Maybe the politically expedient solution would to create a position like an immigration czar and finiding the right person for it. It might not being a good idea, but it might be one that helps politically and takes the heat off the presidential candidate.

Wow, that is a really good idea. If the Czar could be non-partisan and just define the problems that would go a long way toward moving in the right direction.

[Wizardspride]

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[Wizardspride]

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[TGW]

The Democratic leadership: spineless, weak, old and completely ineffective.

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[Wizardspride]

The Democratic leadership: spineless, weak, old and completely ineffective.

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Did you read this article?

[Pointgod]

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The whole party is corrupt from top to bottom. I don’t know how much more proof people need.

[TGW]

The Democratic leadership: spineless, weak, old and completely ineffective.

Read on Twitter

Did you read this article?

Yes I did WP. What part do you think I didn't read? I want to hear the 'splainin on this.

[dckingsfan]

Yeah, Pelosi/Schumer should have let this be on the Rs & Trump. I'm sorry that your party with a majority can't pass the bill Mr. President.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think immigration is certainly a top issue. Does it rank with deficit spending? Does it rank with healthcare cost drivers. Nope. But it is a substantial issue that needs to be dealt with... the non-policy has allowed a demagogue to use it to become POTUS. So, politically it is a top issue, no?

Xenophobic fears are real and I understand why you are reacting to that given our current POTUS.

But our lack of policy is just as damaging as this current POTUS - see the dreamers, see those who die on their trek to get here. And look at the disconnect between our immigration policy and our GDP and resultant loss of revenue to pay for services. It hurts everyone.

Casual dismissal of this issue is one of the reasons we have Trump. It bit Merkel as well.

It's not even about reacting to the xenophobic fears. I would suggest that the entire reason immigration is seen as a top issue is because of those xenophobic fears, nothing more.

My point here is that immigration matters and hurts people but having a different immigration policy isn't going to prevent the dreamers or prevent people from dying on the trek. People are facing risks staying at home versus risks of traveling across continents.

And yes, it needs to be dealt with but if it is dealt with and international relations/economics aren't dealt with (this current regime is making a mess of them) any policy that is adopted is going to be irrelevant. Some of these issues are going to go away on their own regardless. Just as the economic situation in Mexico has changed resulting in reverse migration, so too are the economic situations in Central America changing. The waves of migrants we're seeing aren't going to last forever and will eventually drift back as the average buying power increases and the fertility rate levels off, which is happening rather quickly. Encouraging those kinds of issues are far bigger factors to immigration than any policy.

Where I do agree that immigration matters is more on the skilled workers side of things. It doesn't hurt to tie it in with eliminating the birthright citizenship, or at least tailoring it a bit. Birthright citizenship is still an issue and one it doesn't hurt to change but it it's cast as some sort of evil that costs jobs and such and it just totally isn't. And even with skilled immigration, or targeting women, etc.; those policies aren't sustainable, either. If that happens and education and birth rates/child supports aren't tackled at home, it will be an absolutely pointless endeavor. Immigration is basically an adjacent issue every single time. It's still an issue but it's never a stand-alone issue. It's always something where, if another issue was resolved, then whatever issues exist largely go away.

So yes, let's tackle immigration, but let's do it as a part of other issues being tackled at the same time. Doing immigration first is pointless and a response to fear that won't solve anything, will stoke xenophobia and leave a situation where other things don't change because all people really wanted was a change to immigration.

[dckingsfan]

I think immigration is certainly a top issue. Does it rank with deficit spending? Does it rank with healthcare cost drivers. Nope. But it is a substantial issue that needs to be dealt with... the non-policy has allowed a demagogue to use it to become POTUS. So, politically it is a top issue, no?

Xenophobic fears are real and I understand why you are reacting to that given our current POTUS.

But our lack of policy is just as damaging as this current POTUS - see the dreamers, see those who die on their trek to get here. And look at the disconnect between our immigration policy and our GDP and resultant loss of revenue to pay for services. It hurts everyone.

Casual dismissal of this issue is one of the reasons we have Trump. It bit Merkel as well.

It's not even about reacting to the xenophobic fears. I would suggest that the entire reason immigration is seen as a top issue is because of those xenophobic fears, nothing more.

Let me stop you right there... please look at where the dreamers sit - that is a problem.

We don't have balanced immigration from country, demographic or skill - that is a problem.

Quite frankly, this is how we go into the mess. We put our heads in the sand and said, "this really isn't a problem, nothing to see here." We always obfuscate the problem by pointing to other problems. And then nothing gets done.

I liked Ruz's idea of a non-partisan CZAR to detail the problems - guessing neither side would like that as it will throw cold water on both sides lack of a plan.

[dobrojim]

Clearly and obviously and indisputably a very smart person, Donald J Trump. He must be highly intelligence to have acquired such wealth!

I can't decide if the logic errors or the spelling is funnier...

I get how spelling errors happen on Twitter, but if you are an elected official, why would you leave it up?

High-larious

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-perfect-cover-letter-for-aspiring-white-house-chiefs-of-staff/2018/12/10/7ad735f0-fcbe-11e8-ad40-cdfd0e0dd65a_story.html?utm_term=.cc0dc58fabe7

[pancakes3]

really moving backwards as a society.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/monumental-disaster-at-the-department-of-the-interior/?amp&fbclid=IwAR1_KdfdKf2GQRTbGmthN0h43Uy9X4ITdqxHcd5kpnAapViiEy3FwaYHhMQ

[Wizardspride]

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[stilldropin20]

I think immigration is certainly a top issue. Does it rank with deficit spending? Does it rank with healthcare cost drivers. Nope. But it is a substantial issue that needs to be dealt with... the non-policy has allowed a demagogue to use it to become POTUS. So, politically it is a top issue, no?

Xenophobic fears are real and I understand why you are reacting to that given our current POTUS.

But our lack of policy is just as damaging as this current POTUS - see the dreamers, see those who die on their trek to get here. And look at the disconnect between our immigration policy and our GDP and resultant loss of revenue to pay for services. It hurts everyone.

Casual dismissal of this issue is one of the reasons we have Trump. It bit Merkel as well.

It's not even about reacting to the xenophobic fears. I would suggest that the entire reason immigration is seen as a top issue is because of those xenophobic fears, nothing more.

My point here is that immigration matters and hurts people but having a different immigration policy isn't going to prevent the dreamers or prevent people from dying on the trek. People are facing risks staying at home versus risks of traveling across continents.

And yes, it needs to be dealt with but if it is dealt with and international relations/economics aren't dealt with (this current regime is making a mess of them) any policy that is adopted is going to be irrelevant. Some of these issues are going to go away on their own regardless. Just as the economic situation in Mexico has changed resulting in reverse migration, so too are the economic situations in Central America changing. The waves of migrants we're seeing aren't going to last forever and will eventually drift back as the average buying power increases and the fertility rate levels off, which is happening rather quickly. Encouraging those kinds of issues are far bigger factors to immigration than any policy.

Where I do agree that immigration matters is more on the skilled workers side of things. It doesn't hurt to tie it in with eliminating the birthright citizenship, or at least tailoring it a bit. Birthright citizenship is still an issue and one it doesn't hurt to change but it it's cast as some sort of evil that costs jobs and such and it just totally isn't. And even with skilled immigration, or targeting women, etc.; those policies aren't sustainable, either. If that happens and education and birth rates/child supports aren't tackled at home, it will be an absolutely pointless endeavor. Immigration is basically an adjacent issue every single time. It's still an issue but it's never a stand-alone issue. It's always something where, if another issue was resolved, then whatever issues exist largely go away.

So yes, let's tackle immigration, but let's do it as a part of other issues being tackled at the same time. Doing immigration first is pointless and a response to fear that won't solve anything, will stoke xenophobia and leave a situation where other things don't change because all people really wanted was a change to immigration.

xenophobia is the real red herring.

conservative mexican america support for the wall is over 70%!! (you can dig for the stats but they are out there).And not just for the United States but for mexico. If, You make it (virtually) impossible to get into the united states (via foot through the border) and you virtually stop the caravans.

The mexican government is working on legislation right now to stop these caravans from passing through mexico so they dont end up with another humanitarian crisis in their border towns like 2 weeks ago.

Nobody wants this.

We allow 1 million people per year to become citizens since 2000. More people come in under trump per year than Bush and Obama. And the overwhelming majority of them are brown and black.

So stop the xenophobia faurage. Its disingenuous at best and evil verbiage at worst because it is not allowing the football to be moved forward with thoughtful immigration reform.

And I'll take it a step further...I'd be happy if the wording on the immigration reform specifically said, "we will only allow brown and black people to enter the country." But they must come in the legally...via a vetting process...and (at least 80%) must either be either skilled or educated and between the ages 18-40. <--people that come in to work!! to pay taxes!! To support themselves!!! And may all their phuckin dreams come true!! I hope they all get rich or die trying! And I hope they are happy beyond their wildest dreams with hoes in different area codes. and I dont care if every single one of them is a democrat...but!!...But!..I want them vetted for education and or skill level so as to not over saturate our unskilled labor market because I am sick and tired of hearing, seeing, and dealing with poor people getting poorer and poorer because their wages are stagnant or regressing. If people are 18 and older and willing to work in this country they deserve wages that are livable and keep pace with inflation. The best way to do that is to NOT oversaturate their labor market with and over supply of labor willing to work for lower wages.

And the fact is that black and brown people make up the unskilled labor markets in larger proportions per capita than white...so allowing too many unskilled immigrants into the country is actually real racism. Hidden racism. The worst kind of racism. The kind of racism that you get to hide behind with emotional jiberesh that poor people dont understand. Kinda like the Clinton Crime bill...sounds good...until the prison are filled with young black men and children are growing up without fathers and mothers are living off of the government teet.

You tie that Clinton Crime bill together with our current immigration system and its no wonder that black and brown urban families have not had the success that white suburban families have enjoyed.

Thats real racism! Thats real xenophobio! Hidden in the details of how these previous legislation was not only written but implemented on the streets. Building a wall and protecting our borders, however, is NOT xenophobic nor racists. Its not...like i said above...write in the legislation, "strictly 80% black or brown people!!!" I'm all for it!!!

[TGW]

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Hey look at that. Schumer and Pelosi actually did their job!

[Ruzious]

The Democratic leadership: spineless, weak, old and completely ineffective.

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Did you read this article?

Yes I did WP. What part do you think I didn't read? I want to hear the 'splainin on this.

How bout instead of taking cheap shots - admit the wall is one of the all-time idiotic ideas in American history?