Long Term Plan? (merged threads)

[WizarDynasty]

getting jcrit on this team was an awesome gm move by ernie. I have to give hats off to him. Even though i complain about (slow first step and wimpy McGee)--i would take him any day over Etan thomas. Dmac is turning solid and Tap is strategically putting dixon into the game at all the right times. i do believe me and ernie have a common vision.

[nate33]

I don't think the low morale on the team right now is irreversable. Bring back Arenas and Haywood, install a competent coach, start 'em with a blank slate next year, and they'll be fine. There's enough leadership on this roster between Jamison, Butler and Haywood. I'm not worried at all.[/code]

I've got to disagree with you strongly on the leadership thing. I do like Haywood's on court leadership on the defensive end and we really see the value in that now that he's not in the lineup but Jamison & Bulter have both proven themselves to be faux leaders that seem more interested in getting their numbers and throwing the young guys under the bus whenever they can.

We may have leadership in Jamison & Butler but it's not very good leadership. It's leadership we can honestly live without. I've always questioned how someone like Jamison can be a good leader when he's such a sieve on the defensive end. What kind of message is that sending to the guys he's supposedly leading? Same with Caron, espeically with his me-first attitude, selfish play & whining about how he should be an all-star b/c its not his fault his team sucks. And in many cases, Caron's D has been worse than Jamison's this year and that's saying alot.

I'm honestly ready to blow this team up.

Aw heck, I've been ready to blow this team up for years now. I don't want to see the big three together in uniform again. Give me a healthy Gil & Brendan, Javale, maybe Andray & our high lottery pick and come with something different.

We've seen what continuity has gotten us. Last night was absolutely embarrassing. As a guy that has supported tanking this year, even I found the Memphis game disheartening. It was truly hard to watch a team on a 12-game losing streak come into DC and watch their young talent run us out of the building.

If Ernie doesn't make some type of move by the deadline, even after playing all these vets into the ground to supposedly build up & maintain trade value, I'm really going to start calling for his head.

We both agree that the team sucks right now. But I don't see some mystical "leader" being available who will magically force this team to play defense through sheer act of will.

We'll play better defense when Haywood is back, a new coach is in place, and Jamison is moved to 6th man or traded elsewhere. I don't see trading Butler or acquiring JO as an important step in the process. This team can win with Butler at starting SF, provided there's enough talent around him.

I'm not saying Butler is untouchable, I'm just saying he's not the problem. We shouldn't consider trading him for older vets like Vince Carter, or for cap relief. I've seen far too many trades like that and they're just idiotic.

[fishercob]

Dat, last night was a rough loss, but one that comes with the territory of a season like this. I'm sure the Celtics had their share of these losses two seasons ago. Ironically we haven't seen the fruits of continuity because of injuries. The Wiz are trotting out two credible starters right now; McGuire only becomes credible when Arenas and Haywood are back in the lineup.

I don't see what you're seeing at all vis-a-vis Caron's supposed selfishness. Yeah, he's a prideful competitive guy and thinks he's the same player now he was a year ago, record be damned. He didn't whine about it at all; he said he thought he deserved it and hasn't said word one beyond it.

Your point on Jamison is justified in the sense that he's so limited on D. He's not much of a leader by example in that department. These guys have kept the locker room together through an abysmal season, and that's no small feat.

As to your last statement, I think that you and all Wiz fans need to be prepared -- and expect -- Ernie NOT to make a deal by this deadline. His window to make a deal will be this offseason through next deadline (with Etan and James contracts). He's not well positioned to make more than a minor trade yet.

I understand the frustration and I respect your opinions as always Dat, but I think some of the anger is rash and misguided.

[Dat2U]

CCJ, obviously I agree with everything you said. The problem is the team is imploding from the pressure of losses; youth; and lack of toughness and leadership. And I don't see Arenas coming in and changing that decline of spirit. I don't see a coach alone righting this ship. It will take an infusion of at least two new vets imo. And you can't get those without trading pieces away.

I'd love to see Stephen Jackson or M. Daniels; and JO, Brand or Camby here (as well as a draft pick). We have the pieces to do that. And if we can do that by only selling half of our potential, it will save our chance at a championship in the next three years. If you can do it without giving up Blatche, then of course do it. I don't see that happening.

...

That's my pipe dream. That team has a now and a future -- both contenders. I still think JO is our best option, because:

A) He has heart. You can say alot about him, but you know he has heart. And he leads by example by playing both ways. That is what makes for a team foundation in a big. Brand is too slow for our team (as currently constructed).
B) His contract ends right in time for whatever big we develop to take over, where we hopefully keep JO on for the bench.
C) He can probably be had cheaper than the other options.

Some thouhts:

I'm not sold on Brand or Camby's leadership. Brand's team's have never won anything. Camby in some circles has a rep for being a me-first guy. One that steals rebounds from his teammates and sacrifices team defense by always going for blocks.

I do think JO has some good leadership qualities, but he's got a prohibitve salary and is strickly a C at this stage of his career. We really have no need for him with Wood, McGee & Blatche all capable of manning the C position next year.

I'll agree on Stephen Jackson. We need someone with an edge to 'em. Someone who's a bit of bully on the court. I still remember how S-Jax guarded Dirk two years ago in the playoffs and made Dirk look bitchmade.

I'll disagree on Marquis. Honestly, I think he's a bit of a dog. He'll show up in time to start working on getting a new deal. He did nothing for a number of years in Dallas & Indy after he got his deal. His jump shot never improved. I'll pass.

[barelyawake]

Yeah, trust me I wouldn't shoot my dog if we got Bosh or Amare. I'd probably jump up and down for a week. Just in my heart of heart's I think that neither will make us a championship team. Close. But, not a championship team. Not unless we somehow get the best defensive SF and SG there is. And if you want to push me, I'd say neither will Griffin (my only hope rests on his will, which I hope develops into defense). And if you want to push me further, I'd say that our dreams of winning a championship died back when Arenas got hurt (well really with Kwame), because then we lost the ability to make the Kidd for Starbury trade I thought we would have made by now. And if you want to push me even further, I'd say that Blatche probably has more potential than Blake (though half as much heart) -- which drives me crazy because I thought after getting shot Blatche would be much tougher.

I'm just trying to fit the puzzle together. I was in love with getting Zo. I was in love with getting P.J. Brown. I was in love with getting KG. I would be in love with getting Marion, Okafor or Rash Wallace. I love what Jordan has done with that team lately. The worst part of it is those are the three players/teams we cannot trade with. Miami because they are our rivals. Rash hates our team. And Jordan ain't dealing with us. So, there is no love. Which means we are left with blowing up the team and starting all over. And that is what I'm trying to avoid. I think I'd start by clearing cap and getting Joe Smith on the end of the bench. I know that seems meaningless. But, he defines tough.

[fishercob]

BA, Bosh was specifically lauded by the Team USA coaching staff this summer for his D. I think adding him -- and whatever ancillary trades/signings come along with doing so -- make us legit title contenders, once the team has had a year or so to grow together.

[nate33]

As to your last statement, I think that you and all Wiz fans need to be prepared -- and expect -- Ernie NOT to make a deal by this deadline. His window to make a deal will be this offseason through next deadline (with Etan and James contracts). He's not well positioned to make more than a minor trade yet.

I don't expect a big deal at the deadline either. Stevenson and Etan are untradable right now. The only thing I see as reasonably possible is something that sends Mike James away in exchange for an expiring contract (presumably with cash and a 2nd round pick going out with James).

I also think EG should earnestly explore trading Songaila for shorter contracts, but I have a feeling that management is too attached to him and won't trade him even though it's in our best interests. (I'm going to be royally pizzed off if we end up letting Haywood walk in 2010 because we were too short-sighted to trade Songaila now. Abe better damn well be willing to pay the luxtax to retain Haywood if he doesn't want to see Songaila go.)

What I want to see after the trade deadline is the youngsters to play more. Certainly, Mike James should get a lot less PT. And Songaila should sit more too (once Blatche gets back) since we won't be showcasing him anymore. I can live with Butler and Jamison logging big minutes since they're not really taking minutes from deserving players anyhow. Sooner or later, Butler is going to get hurt though.

[WizarDynasty]

i think we can easily play Haywood and Blatche next to each other and that is formidable front court against anyone in the league. Having Jcritt back up Arenas defensive liabilities is going to do wonders. i think the missing piece to this team is Al Farog Aminu, the best defensive "true s/f" in the draft. He will immediately be our instant solution to the defensive problems that we have against offensive s/f. DMAC is great at shutting down s/g's but against elite s/fs like pierce or lebron..he .. normally gets roasted against elite s/fs. Its going to be great having a more agile AK47 coming off the bench each game to truly shut down the perimeter and give us another finishers on the fast break.

[Dat2U]

I don't see what you're seeing at all vis-a-vis Caron's supposed selfishness. Yeah, he's a prideful competitive guy and thinks he's the same player now he was a year ago, record be damned. He didn't whine about it at all; he said he thought he deserved it and hasn't said word one beyond it.

Your point on Jamison is justified in the sense that he's so limited on D. He's not much of a leader by example in that department. These guys have kept the locker room together through an abysmal season, and that's no small feat.

As to your last statement, I think that you and all Wiz fans need to be prepared -- and expect -- Ernie NOT to make a deal by this deadline. His window to make a deal will be this offseason through next deadline (with Etan and James contracts). He's not well positioned to make more than a minor trade yet.

I understand the frustration and I respect your opinions as always Dat, but I think some of the anger is rash and misguided.

I hear ya Fish, but I just think we see some things differently. I believe that's partly because I was already ambivalent about this team & our supposed leaders prior to this nightmarish season.

Regarding Caron, I've seen him jack up many a contested shot instead of making that extra pass. Also he doesn't attack the basket anymore. I guess he wants to stay healthy and doesn't feel this current team is worth it. I hate his body language. It's like he's been sulking all year and its pathetic considering the rep this guy had as being Mr. Tough Juice, a role which he seemed to relish.

Basically what I'm saying is Caron is not what we think he is. The effort on D has been abysmal. He's gotten torched by far lesser talents. Any competitiveness he did have was gone before Eddie Jordan walked out that door for the last time. And I question how can say that Caron & Antawn have kept the locker room together? It seems pretty fractured to me.

As far as Jamison's defense is concerned, while part of it is due to limitations, his desire to not put forth 100% is awfully apparent to me. He doesn't rotate on D, he doesn't close out on the baseline even at the most crucial times, he allows layups at the rim instead of giving a hard foul and his pet move is when instead of challenging a shooter he does one of these little deals where its like 'let me take one step towards the man I'm supposed to be guarding & throw my arm up to make it look like I'm attempting to challenge a shot'.

I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. Somehow, someway he's gotten away with it for years. The things I've mentioned, that's not lack of ability, that's lack of effort.

[barelyawake]

BA, Bosh was specifically lauded by the Team USA coaching staff this summer for his D. I think adding him -- and whatever ancillary trades/signings come along with doing so -- make us legit title contenders, once the team has had a year or so to grow together.

Worth a shot. Again, I see why you think that. I'm not 100% sold. But, I'm not 100% sold on any of the solutions.

[BigA]

I don't expect a big deal at the deadline either. Stevenson and Etan are untradable right now. The only thing I see as reasonably possible is something that sends Mike James away in exchange for an expiring contract (presumably with cash and a 2nd round pick going out with James).<snip>

Something involving Jamison or Butler could presumably happen, right? Though we'd probably all rate that as highly unlikely.

[nate33]

Regarding Caron, I've seen him jack up many a contested shot instead of making that extra pass. Also he doesn't attack the basket anymore. I guess he wants to stay healthy and doesn't feel this current team is worth it. I hate his body language. It's like he's been sulking all year and its pathetic considering the rep this guy had as being Mr. Tough Juice, a role which he seemed to relish.

FWIW, last season, Butler averaged 4.2 FTA's per 36 minutes. This year, he is averaging 5.3. He also has an identical rebounding percentage as last year (9.7%). The "effort stats" suggest that he's playing as hard this year as he did last year.

I agree that his body language isn't great, but his on-the-court performance isn't much different from last year, statistically anyways. Basically, he is turning the ball over more and shooting a lower percentage from 3-point range. All of his other numbers remain about the same. His eFG% is down a bit, but his TS% is in line with last season thanks to the additional FT attempts.

Caron had a flukey run last year in December when he made about 10 consecutive 3 point shots, including a couple of game winners. Take that one stretch away and his stats last season would look almost identical to his stats this year.

[barelyawake]

Arenas/James/Crit
Stephen Jackson/Young
Ariza/Dom/Gelabale
Bosh/Griffin/Joe Smith
Haywood/McGee

Something like that would make me happy. Getting closer to love. Don't ask me how that pipe dream happens. AJ for Stephen Jackson. Blatche and Caron for Bosh. Sign a SF or SG with the MLE. Hmmm... I suppose that's close to possible. The Ariza part is probably the least possible. But, I'll take Hassell, Delfino, Miles, Des Mas, M. Daniels or even run with Young for a year. OK, back to actual work I've been avoiding.

[LyricalRico]

AJ for Stephen Jackson. Blatche and Caron for Bosh.

Both of those trades work for me, especially if we end up with Harden in the draft. We wouldn't be able to use the MLE, though. I'd also try to expand the Bosh deal to get Kapono so we'd have some outside shooting. Add James+Young for Kapono+2nd?

Here's how my variation looks:

Haywood/McGee
Bosh/Songaila
Jackson/DMac
Harden/Kapono
Arenas/Critt

Much longer than our current rotation and better defensively, with a little edge to boot. Cap's not in too bad of a shape, either.

[nate33]

My favorite plan at this point involves the Jamison for Salmons trade. Trade Jamison to Portland with LaFrentz going to Sacramento and Salmons and Sh. Williams coming here. Then trade Songaila to Boston for Scalabrine and Cassell (who we'll cut immediately). Then trade Stevenson to the Clippers to Novak and Ricky Davis (who we'll buy out immediately). Hire Tom Thibadeaux. Our roster next year:

PG Arenas/Crittenton
SG Salmons/Young
SF Butler/McGee
PF Blatche/lotto pick
C Haywood/McGuire
Depth/Filler contracts: James, Etan, Scalabrine, Pecherov (all expire in 2010)

We also avoid the luxtax in 2009. If we land the #1 pick, we can just draft Griffin and let the expirings expire, leaving us with $13M in cap space in 2010 (but needing to resign Haywood, Salmons and McGuire). Otherwise, we package the pick with the 2010 expirings and maybe Blatche or Young to get Bosh or Amare.

[LyricalRico]

^ Nice one, nate.

[Rafael122]

Is there like a 72 hour window to negotiate an extension after a trade is made, ala baseball? And if he doesn't agree, we break the trade?

Bosh sounds like a guy who wants to hit free agency in 2010 even if he's traded to a team he prefers. I wouldn't want Ernie to trade for the guy and then watch him bolt a year later.

[hands11]

Good news and bad new.

Good news - AJ is pumping up this trade value.
Bad new - James is wasting his opportunity to get traded while eating up Crits minutes to get better.

As for CB not driving anymore. Bahh. He still drives. I'm tired of reading the CB bashing. I don't have a problem with CB given what he doesn't have around him and given what is game is about. Add Haywood and GA and CB's game will look like it did before. He is a 1B glue type guy that fill the stat board and he isn't over paid right now. End of story. He isn't Kobe or Wade but he is a great player to have on your team.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04034.html

That leaves Tapscott with nine healthy bodies including a starting point guard, Mike James, who is shooting 22.2 percent over the past five games, a starting small forward, Dominic McGuire, who is a non-threat offensively, an undersized 6-foot-9 starting center in Darius Songaila, and a group of young players who are consistently inconsistent.

Despite those issues, Jamison doesn't want to hear excuses nor is he ready to pack it in and begin the slow march toward the offseason. Losses like Monday's -- in which bad play was equaled by poor body language and led to the Wizards being booed off the court by what was left of a season-low crowd of 11,442 -- suggest that a few players might already be leaning that way.

"As long as I'm on this team and as long as I'm not doing that and [Butler]'s not doing that, it won't happen," Jamison said. "And I don't want to hear 'Play the young guys and get them ready' either. Nah, I'm not going to be a part of that. It's about going out there and competing with the guys you feel can help you win the game. Of course we've got to have some guys play minutes they wouldn't normally play, but in the words of Herman Edwards: 'You play to win the game.' That's what I plan on going out there and doing."

[hands11]

My favorite plan at this point involves the Jamison for Salmons trade. Trade Jamison to Portland with LaFrentz going to Sacramento and Salmons and Sh. Williams coming here. Then trade Songaila to Boston for Scalabrine and Cassell (who we'll cut immediately). Then trade Stevenson to the Clippers to Novak and Ricky Davis (who we'll buy out immediately). Hire Tom Thibadeaux. Our roster next year:

PG Arenas/Crittenton
SG Salmons/Young
SF Butler/McGee
PF Blatche/lotto pick
C Haywood/McGuire
Depth/Filler contracts: James, Etan, Scalabrine, Pecherov (all expire in 2010)

We also avoid the luxtax in 2009. If we land the #1 pick, we can just draft Griffin and let the expirings expire, leaving us with $13M in cap space in 2010 (but needing to resign Haywood, Salmons and McGuire). Otherwise, we package the pick with the 2010 expirings and maybe Blatche or Young to get Bosh or Amare.

IMO, it will be something like this that happens only I think you put Blatche at PF/SF and McGee at C/PF. Maybe you meant to put DMAC there and it's a typo. Yeah it was, you have DMAC at center. Also, I think we can pay James enough to bridge the gap in him leaving for a longer contract for less.

As for draft pick. I have no idea. I'm not there yet.

PG Arenas/Crittenton
SG Salmons/Young
SF Butler/DMAC, Blatche
PF Blatche/McGee, lotto pick
C Haywood/McGee
Depth/Filler contracts: James - gone, Etan, Scalabrine, Pecherov (all expire in 2010)

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I hear ya Fish, but I just think we see some things differently. I believe that's partly because I was already ambivalent about this team & our supposed leaders prior to this nightmarish season.

Regarding Caron, I've seen him jack up many a contested shot instead of making that extra pass. Also he doesn't attack the basket anymore. I guess he wants to stay healthy and doesn't feel this current team is worth it. I hate his body language. It's like he's been sulking all year and its pathetic considering the rep this guy had as being Mr. Tough Juice, a role which he seemed to relish.

Basically what I'm saying is Caron is not what we think he is. The effort on D has been abysmal. He's gotten torched by far lesser talents. Any competitiveness he did have was gone before Eddie Jordan walked out that door for the last time. And I question how can say that Caron & Antawn have kept the locker room together? It seems pretty fractured to me.

As far as Jamison's defense is concerned, while part of it is due to limitations, his desire to not put forth 100% is awfully apparent to me. He doesn't rotate on D, he doesn't close out on the baseline even at the most crucial times, he allows layups at the rim instead of giving a hard foul and his pet move is when instead of challenging a shooter he does one of these little deals where its like 'let me take one step towards the man I'm supposed to be guarding & throw my arm up to make it look like I'm attempting to challenge a shot'.

I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. Somehow, someway he's gotten away with it for years. The things I've mentioned, that's not lack of ability, that's lack of effort.

I concur 100% on Caron, Dat.

I think Jamison should play (at this point with all lost) about 30 minutes a game, all out. He'd put forth that extra effort on defense over less overall minutes because he wouldn't be fatigued is my guess. For all the talk about how bad his defense is, to me it's more about effort with Jamison. Just like he can still get way above the rim and jam when he wants to, Jamison can make a nasty defensive play here and there when he wants to. I don't fault Jamison's efforts this season, either. Just think he's playing the way he always has. Paces himself on defense and attacks the board sand gets after it on offense.