Political Roundtable - Part VII

[TGW]

A great interview of my favorite liberal: Camille Paglia

What's your view on Bernie Sanders?

[nate33]

"Scholars have long discussed methods by which America might make reparations to those on whose labor and exclusion the country was built. In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number—$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book—could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two."

This is preposterous. It presupposes that the cause for the wealth disparity is solely due to white racism. Let's try it this way:

Jewish people on average earn 20% more than their non-Jew counterparts. Jews are 2% of the American population but constitute 35% of the Forbes list of the 400 Richest Americans. Clearly, Jew Privilege as it work here because Jews are also massively overrepresented among government policy makers, opinion makers and media. We need reparations. Jews, on average, earn about $12,000 more than non-Jews. There are about 325 million non-Jews in America so American Jews should pony up $3.25 trillion dollars and we'll call it even.

[nate33]

A great interview of my favorite liberal: Camille Paglia

What's your view on Bernie Sanders?

I have a great deal of respect for Bernie Sanders because he's an honest man with integrity. Of course, I disagree with much of his socialist agenda but I do think some good would come out of a Sanders Presidency as long as he was checked by a Republican Congress. Sanders would fight the banks and he'd probably disentangle us from lots of bad foreign occupations. Those two things alone might be worth enduring the additional wealth transfer programs he'd propose.

[dckingsfan]

So your grandfather allowed the nurse to do her job? Good for him, I guess.

Weird eh. He was Jewish and had to change his name to go to medical school. Not sure if that was his motivation - he is dead, so I can't ask

His point was that the bureaucrats in the navy would have kept her from doing her job - even if it cost sailor's lives and it took an admiral to bail him out...

Was it really the bureaucrats fault? Seems a bit of a cop-out.

Maybe you are right... I wasn't there. He said that to get anything done you had to jump through hoops. More supplies - navy supply officers (bureaucrat?). Leave came from superiors (bureaucrat?). Want to use a nurse, as the logistics officer (bureaucrat?).

And maybe his definition of a bureaucrat is wrong

[dckingsfan]

"Scholars have long discussed methods by which America might make reparations to those on whose labor and exclusion the country was built. In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number—$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book—could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two."

This is preposterous. It presupposes that the cause for the wealth disparity is solely due to white racism. Let's try it this way:

Jewish people on average earn 20% more than their non-Jew counterparts. Jews are 2% of the American population but constitute 35% of the Forbes list of the 400 Richest Americans. Clearly, Jew Privilege as it work here because Jews are also massively overrepresented among government policy makers, opinion makers and media. We need reparations. Jews, on average, earn about $12,000 more than non-Jews. There are about 325 million non-Jews in America so American Jews should pony up $3.25 trillion dollars and we'll call it even.

But we now know what the transfer would look like. Or at least the start of the negotiation. I would think it would be somewhere between 0 and $182.74B. You could make the argument that it should be $125B or $100B.

In order for it to be zero, you would need to assert that slavery didn't hold back blacks in this country. That there shouldn't be reparations.

Warning - same arguments held for abortion and gay marriage...

[fishercob]

"Scholars have long discussed methods by which America might make reparations to those on whose labor and exclusion the country was built. In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number—$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book—could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two."

This is preposterous. It presupposes that the cause for the wealth disparity is solely due to white racism. Let's try it this way:

Jewish people on average earn 20% more than their non-Jew counterparts. Jews are 2% of the American population but constitute 35% of the Forbes list of the 400 Richest Americans. Clearly, Jew Privilege as it work here because Jews are also massively overrepresented among government policy makers, opinion makers and media. We need reparations. Jews, on average, earn about $12,000 more than non-Jews. There are about 325 million non-Jews in America so American Jews should pony up $3.25 trillion dollars and we'll call it even.

Jews came here they way all other immigrants -- except blacks -- did. They came voluntarily, fleeing religious persecution and/or in search of economic opportunity. That matters and I don't know why you think it doesn't.

[Zonkerbl]

Would reparations end racism? I don't know that it would really be in african american's interests to pursue it. Ending racism will benefit them much more than getting revenge for past sins and it's not very buddhist anyway.

[dobrojim]

"Scholars have long discussed methods by which America might make reparations to those on whose labor and exclusion the country was built. In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number—$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book—could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two."

This is preposterous. It presupposes that the cause for the wealth disparity is solely due to white racism. Let's try it this way:

Jewish people on average earn 20% more than their non-Jew counterparts. Jews are 2% of the American population but constitute 35% of the Forbes list of the 400 Richest Americans. Clearly, Jew Privilege as it work here because Jews are also massively overrepresented among government policy makers, opinion makers and media. We need reparations. Jews, on average, earn about $12,000 more than non-Jews. There are about 325 million non-Jews in America so American Jews should pony up $3.25 trillion dollars and we'll call it even.

I don't think many people believe wealth disparity is solely due to white racism.
I do believe it is difficult for white people to appreciate or admit that the wealth
disparity does have deep roots going back to slavery.

I don't believe your second analogy holds water. Who did the Jews suppress in order to attain
their elevated status? White suppression of black people in America is an historical fact
that lives on to this day.

[dobrojim]

A great interview of my favorite liberal: Camille Paglia

What's your view on Bernie Sanders?

I have a great deal of respect for Bernie Sanders because he's an honest man with integrity. Of course, I disagree with much of his socialist agenda but I do think some good would come out of a Sanders Presidency as long as he was checked by a Republican Congress. Sanders would fight the banks and he'd probably disentangle us from lots of bad foreign occupations. Those two things alone might be worth enduring the additional wealth transfer programs he'd propose.

I remember hearing Paglia back in the day (60 minutes). I am not sure I remember her as liberal but I'm getting
old and my memory ain't as good as it once was.

I appreciate your take on Sanders. It would be interesting to see if he could implement any of his
agenda via legislation (seems doubtful). Furthermore, it would be hugely interesting to see how the
right wing echo chamber responded to his election given the response to the middle of the road BHO election.
Sanders is much closer to the guy that echo chamber accused BHO of being.

[Zonkerbl]

Interesting story - a lot of religions look down at money lending as an evil kind of business, and so typically it was one of the few occupations Jews were allowed to undertake. In the most ironic "what does not kill you makes you stronger" story ever, the persecution of the Jews in the middle ages is partially responsible for their enormous financial success.

The Jewish culture/religion puts a huge emphasis on skepticism and logical debate, and they have been seriously debating what's written in the Torah for literally thousands of years. Again, because of the severity of their persecution, a lot of Jews seriously question whether they are really the chosen people or what, and it has forced Rabbis to take questions directly challenging what's written in the Torah very seriously.

As opposed to, say, Christianity, where you're just supposed to have "faith." Or in other words, believe what the church authority says without question. The two other Abrahaamic religions in the world are basically designed to serve as an instrument of control of the masses by the government. Christianity is blatantly anti-intellectual and actively discourages skepticism, as does Islaam. So it doesn't surprise me that Jews have more academic success than members of the other two religions.

Interesting the two paths these two persecuted races have walked. Jews were killed and hated and enslaved over and over and over and it's turned them into one of the wealthiest, most successful tribe of people walking the face of the earth. I think the main difference is the Jews once were on top of things in the Western world and African Americans never were.

Walking down the street in Anacostia the denizens there all reflexively beg for money when they see me (I assume because I'm white). That is a very strange cultural phenomenon to me, particularly as a Jew. Jews have always assumed that no one will help them and that has made them very strong, if somewhat tiresome to be around. African American culture is much more trusting, I guess, but it seems to be working against them.

[dobrojim]

Zonk, you ought to read Gladwell (I think in Outliers) where he talks about how the blackballing
of Jews in NYC Law circles eventually led to their ascendancy as times changed. They had been
relegated to what was then considered scut work but the experience they gained left them
perfectly positioned to take advantage of all the work created by the mergers and acquisitions
starting back in the 80s.

[popper]

Interesting story - a lot of religions look down at money lending as an evil kind of business, and so typically it was one of the few occupations Jews were allowed to undertake. In the most ironic "what does not kill you makes you stronger" story ever, the persecution of the Jews in the middle ages is partially responsible for their enormous financial success.

The Jewish culture/religion puts a huge emphasis on skepticism and logical debate, and they have been seriously debating what's written in the Torah for literally thousands of years. Again, because of the severity of their persecution, a lot of Jews seriously question whether they are really the chosen people or what, and it has forced Rabbis to take questions directly challenging what's written in the Torah very seriously.

As opposed to, say, Christianity, where you're just supposed to have "faith." Or in other words, believe what the church authority says without question. The two other Abrahaamic religions in the world are basically designed to serve as an instrument of control of the masses by the government. Christianity is blatantly anti-intellectual and actively discourages skepticism, as does Islaam. So it doesn't surprise me that Jews have more academic success than members of the other two religions.

Interesting the two paths these two persecuted races have walked. Jews were killed and hated and enslaved over and over and over and it's turned them into one of the wealthiest, most successful tribe of people walking the face of the earth. I think the main difference is the Jews once were on top of things in the Western world and African Americans never were.

Walking down the street in Anacostia the denizens there all reflexively beg for money when they see me (I assume because I'm white). That is a very strange cultural phenomenon to me, particularly as a Jew. Jews have always assumed that no one will help them and that has made them very strong, if somewhat tiresome to be around. African American culture is much more trusting, I guess, but it seems to be working against them.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

Many well-known historical figures who influenced Western science considered themselves Christian such as Copernicus,[1] Galileo,[2] Kepler,[3] Newton[4] and Boyle.[5]

According to 100 Years of Nobel Prizes, a review of Nobel prizes awarded between 1901 and 2000, 65.4% of Nobel Prize Laureates have identified Christianity in its various forms as their religious preference.[6] Overall, Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace,[7] 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics,[7] 62% in Medicine,[7] 54% in Economics[7] and 49.5% of all Literature awards.[7]

[Zonkerbl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

"Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 850 individuals,[2] of whom at least 22% (without peace prize over 24%) were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population[3] (or 1 in every 500 people). Overall, Jews have won a total of 41% of all the Nobel Prizes in economics, 28% in medicine, 26% in Physics, 19% in Chemistry, 13% in Literature and 9% of all peace awards.[4]"

From your article:
"Christians make up over 33.2% of the worlds population [11][12][13][14] and have earned 65.4% of Nobel prizes.[5]"

Christians' performance in terms of generating Nobel laureates is PATHETIC. We Jews are kicking your ASSES.

[nate33]

Interesting the two paths these two persecuted races have walked. Jews were killed and hated and enslaved over and over and over and it's turned them into one of the wealthiest, most successful tribe of people walking the face of the earth. I think the main difference is the Jews once were on top of things in the Western world and African Americans never were.

I've heard a good theory that the success of the Askenazi Jews was partially due to them being forbidden from owning land in most of Europe throughout the Middle Ages. With farming not an option, Jews focused on business and trade as a means of generating income. That led to a focus on education and greater parental investment in fewer children. You want a few smart kids to balance the books, rather than a lot of big strong kids to work the fields. Over time, the smarter families became more successful, and therefore had the means to afford more (smart) children.

[nate33]

"Scholars have long discussed methods by which America might make reparations to those on whose labor and exclusion the country was built. In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number—$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book—could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two."

This is preposterous. It presupposes that the cause for the wealth disparity is solely due to white racism. Let's try it this way:

Jewish people on average earn 20% more than their non-Jew counterparts. Jews are 2% of the American population but constitute 35% of the Forbes list of the 400 Richest Americans. Clearly, Jew Privilege as it work here because Jews are also massively overrepresented among government policy makers, opinion makers and media. We need reparations. Jews, on average, earn about $12,000 more than non-Jews. There are about 325 million non-Jews in America so American Jews should pony up $3.25 trillion dollars and we'll call it even.

But we now know what the transfer would look like. Or at least the start of the negotiation. I would think it would be somewhere between 0 and $182.74B. You could make the argument that it should be $125B or $100B.

In order for it to be zero, you would need to assert that slavery didn't hold back blacks in this country. That there shouldn't be reparations.

Warning - same arguments held for abortion and gay marriage...

Prepare yourself: HateStats are about to follow.

I did some calculations based on percentage of income taxes paid by income bracket, and by proportion of different ethnic groups within each income bracket. The best I could determine is that blacks pay approximately 4% of all income taxes today despite being 13% of the population. Over the past 50 years, that income tax number would surely be lower because the income tax was more progressive and there were fewer high paying jobs in entertainment and sports. So let's assume that blacks have paid, on average 3% of income taxes over the past 50 years. Meanwhile, they've been reaping the benefits of government spending, whether for general infrastructure, education, law enforcement and defense; or for specific welfare transfer payments to them (where blacks take in roughly 50% of welfare spending). The wealth transfer to blacks has already been in the trillions of dollars - probably tens of trillions.

Those trillions of dollars have not appeared to help blacks. What makes anyone think a reparations payment would be any different?

[Zonkerbl]

There's lots of different stories like that. I think generally Jews were rounded up and forced to live in urban ghettos and so they took up urban professions disproportionately, and when those professions became drivers of economic growth during the industrial revolution they just naturally benefited from it. But the Jews weren't the only minority that was rounded up and forced into ghettos so I think there's some other aspects of the Jewish culture that play into it as well. I don't think you can separate out the rigorous study of the Torah from the Jewish success story. The most coveted profession in the Jewish world is that of a Rabbi and to be a Rabbi you have to study the Torah, so everybody studies the Torah zealously as kids. Being a tribe of nerds has got to have a strong part in the tendency of Jews to turn lemons into lemonade over and over and over again.

[popper]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

"Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 850 individuals,[2] of whom at least 22% (without peace prize over 24%) were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population[3] (or 1 in every 500 people). Overall, Jews have won a total of 41% of all the Nobel Prizes in economics, 28% in medicine, 26% in Physics, 19% in Chemistry, 13% in Literature and 9% of all peace awards.[4]"

From your article:
"Christians make up over 33.2% of the worlds population [11][12][13][14] and have earned 65.4% of Nobel prizes.[5]"

Christians' performance in terms of generating Nobel laureates is PATHETIC. We Jews are kicking your ASSES.

Just pointing out that your comment " Christianity is blatantly anti-intellectual" is questionable.

[DCZards]

Would reparations end racism? I don't know that it would really be in african american's interests to pursue it. Ending racism will benefit them much more than getting revenge for past sins and it's not very buddhist anyway.

Ending racism in the US is a nice ideal. But I don't think it's a realistic one. And I don't consider reparations revenge. More like a very, very late payment for services rendered.

[Zonkerbl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

"Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 850 individuals,[2] of whom at least 22% (without peace prize over 24%) were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population[3] (or 1 in every 500 people). Overall, Jews have won a total of 41% of all the Nobel Prizes in economics, 28% in medicine, 26% in Physics, 19% in Chemistry, 13% in Literature and 9% of all peace awards.[4]"

From your article:
"Christians make up over 33.2% of the worlds population [11][12][13][14] and have earned 65.4% of Nobel prizes.[5]"

Christians' performance in terms of generating Nobel laureates is PATHETIC. We Jews are kicking your ASSES.

Just pointing out that your comment " Christianity is blatantly anti-intellectual" is questionable.

Why? The fact that Christianity is not shouldering its share of pushing forward the boundaries of science is prima facie evidence that the religion systematically suppresses scientific progress. But for Christianity's anti-intellectual teachings we would have a cure for cancer by now. Look at all the silliness going on now with stem cell research. That put progress towards a cure for cancer off by a decade at least.

[TheSecretWeapon]

This is preposterous. It presupposes that the cause for the wealth disparity is solely due to white racism. Let's try it this way:

Jewish people on average earn 20% more than their non-Jew counterparts. Jews are 2% of the American population but constitute 35% of the Forbes list of the 400 Richest Americans. Clearly, Jew Privilege as it work here because Jews are also massively overrepresented among government policy makers, opinion makers and media. We need reparations. Jews, on average, earn about $12,000 more than non-Jews. There are about 325 million non-Jews in America so American Jews should pony up $3.25 trillion dollars and we'll call it even.

But we now know what the transfer would look like. Or at least the start of the negotiation. I would think it would be somewhere between 0 and $182.74B. You could make the argument that it should be $125B or $100B.

In order for it to be zero, you would need to assert that slavery didn't hold back blacks in this country. That there shouldn't be reparations.

Warning - same arguments held for abortion and gay marriage...

Prepare yourself: HateStats are about to follow.

I did some calculations based on percentage of income taxes paid by income bracket, and by proportion of different ethnic groups within each income bracket. The best I could determine is that blacks pay approximately 4% of all income taxes today despite being 13% of the population. Over the past 50 years, that income tax number would surely be lower because the income tax was more progressive and there were fewer high paying jobs in entertainment and sports. So let's assume that blacks have paid, on average 3% of income taxes over the past 50 years. Meanwhile, they've been reaping the benefits of government spending, whether for general infrastructure, education, law enforcement and defense; or for specific welfare transfer payments to them (where blacks take in roughly 50% of welfare spending). The wealth transfer to blacks has already been in the trillions of dollars - probably tens of trillions.

Those trillions of dollars have not appeared to help blacks. What makes anyone think a reparations payment would be any different?

"HateStats" -- your word, man.

I don't think reparations are workable, so this is a purely academic discussion. It does seem nonsensical to me, however, to deny the long-term impacts of kidnapping people, shipping them across the ocean, and forcing them to perform unpaid work -- and then subjecting them to discrimination in housing, education, and employment, as well as denying them basic rights (like voting).

So, you're welcome to continue posting BS race-based factoids, but so far, non of it addresses the REALITY of how discrimination has affected black people in this country in a way that has been unique, persistent, and damaging.