Political Roundtable Part XXVI

[montestewart]

it's really tough to hold a conversation of civility and respect for the "other side" and hear people say that "damn, they [Democrats] make it hard" in the face of daily updates like the one below, and then seeing Trump polling at ~85% approval within the party.

dckings asks rhetorically "how far is too far on the other side?" and handwrings over general policy hypotheticals when the sitting president is being openly and vilely racist on a daily basis is, most charitably framed, disingenuous.

just about every republican in this thread has said some version of "i don't support trump but..." and yet here he is polling at 85%. that's the cashier's receipt for your soul there, friend.

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https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/jun/06/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-republican-voters-him-more-they-/

I don't mind talking to the other side (ask popper and da1) but I'll call it like it is. Trump's using a dog whistle that all the animals in the world can hear, affirming to his supporters that this is a white country, founded by whites and for whites. Beyond that, tolerance extends only to fully toadying dark-skinned minions and subordinates.

It won't be long before the superior quality of slave life versus modern Africa-American circumstances and the idealized portrayal of slave ships ("they treated them well, they were valuable property") will return to open discussion, as they were in my youth, rather than confined to white nationalist circles.

At this point I start to wonder whether some of this Trump support consists of people too afraid to acknowledge their own mistake in hitching to this wagon, too afraid to admit to those around them, who might be true believers, that something has gone seriously wrong, using as blinders policies that appear sufficiently conservative to avoid admitting to themselves that they are supporting a vicious mad man and unsure which among their fellow supporters are equally vicious and mad.

PS: Maybe Trump should go back to where he came from and stop his Nazi countrymen from causing the deaths of 40 million people rather than trying to infect my country with his deranged megalomania

[dckingsfan]

it's really tough to hold a conversation of civility and respect for the "other side" and hear people say that "damn, they [Democrats] make it hard" in the face of daily updates like the one below, and then seeing Trump polling at ~85% approval within the party.

dckings asks rhetorically "how far is too far on the other side?" and handwrings over general policy hypotheticals when the sitting president is being openly and vilely racist on a daily basis is, most charitably framed, disingenuous.

just about every republican in this thread has said some version of "i don't support trump but..." and yet here he is polling at 85%. that's the cashier's receipt for your soul there, friend.

Read on Twitter

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https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/jun/06/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-republican-voters-him-more-they-/

I don't mind talking to the other side (ask popper and da1) but I'll call it like it is. Trump's using a dog whistle that all the animals in the word can hear, affirming to his supporters that this is a white country, founded by whites and for whites. Beyond that, tolerance extends only to fully toadying dark-skinned minions and subordinates.

It won't be long before the superior quality of slave life versus modern Africa-American circumstances and the idealized portrayal of slave ships ("they treated them well, they were valuable property") will return to open discussion, as they were in my youth, rather than confined to white nationalist circles.

At this point I start to wonder whether some of this Trump support consists of people too afraid to acknowledge their own mistake in hitching to this wagon, too afraid to admit to those around them, who might be true believers, that something has gone seriously wrong, using as blinders policies that appear sufficiently conservative to avoid admitting to themselves that they are supporting a vicious mad man and unsure which among their fellow supporters are equally vicious and mad.

PS: Maybe Trump should go back to where he came from and stop his Nazi countrymen from causing the deaths of 40 million people rather than trying to infect my country with his deranged megalomania

Since I am misquoted quote on this...

dckings asks rhetorically "how far is too far on the other side?" and handwrings over general policy hypotheticals when the sitting president is being openly and vilely racist on a daily basis is, most charitably framed, disingenuous.

First, I didn't ask the question. And I have already stated I am a never Trumper - that line was crossed long ago for me. But that doesn't seem to be enough. You have to openly declare all from the other party to be evil, horrible people. Sorry - not going there, I know too many of them and they aren't the horrible people you want them to be (of course some are but not the majority).

And yes, policy and ideas matter - they aren't hypothetical - there is a cognitive dissonance issue on this as well (more below).

And kaboom to Monte (italic). And question back to him: If you think that Trump supporters are afraid to acknowledge their mistake - what is the best approach to get them to acknowledge and move forward. I think that psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson have some good insights on the cognitive dissonance that one has to overcome.

[pancakes3]

way to miss the entire point of my post bro.

here's the reader's digest: you're not evil for being republican but you are for staying republican.

but not even. you don't even have to change parties, just demand better representation.

why isn't there a #walkaway movement from the right? i've been pretty vocal about me being a historical conservative and still turning my back on the current incarnation of the GOP.

[montestewart]

Once Obama and the Clinton's became merely new names for the Antichrist, it became possible to sneak this cretinous bad seed into office under the guise of patriotism.

I have friends and family that presumably still support Trump. I tell them how sad I am that our president openly promotes discrimination against our darker skinned friends and relatives, hates free speech, hates all criticism, openly loves power mad tyrants, and openly worships himself. At this point, that is as gentle as my persuasion can be. I care about my Trump-supporting friends and relatives. I want to save them. I am running out of ideas.

[dckingsfan]

way to miss the entire point of my post bro.

here's the reader's digest: you're not evil for being republican but you are for staying republican.

but not even. you don't even have to change parties, just demand better representation.

why isn't there a #walkaway movement from the right? i've been pretty vocal about me being a historical conservative and still turning my back on the current incarnation of the GOP.

I got your point. Hence my question to Monte on how to get them to not vote for Trump again. Pretty sure in violent agreement on being #nevertrump. As an aside, I am happy to see that Paul Ryan has headed that direction as well. Maybe other Rs can go there with him?

But I also wanted to make my point - that there is a group that is vilifying anyone that doesn't agree with them. Proof? Take a look at AOC calling Pelosi out as a racist. Really? Pelosi is a racist?

[dckingsfan]

I have friends and family that presumably still support Trump. I tell them how sad I am that our president openly promotes discrimination against our darker skinned friends and relatives, hates free speech, hates all criticism, openly loves power mad tyrants, and openly worships himself. At this point, that is as gentle as my persuasion can be. I care about my Trump-supporting friends and relatives. I want to save them. I am running out of ideas.

My advice?
"Hey bro - you going to join Ryan and Bush? Seem like guys you agree with?"

[pancakes3]

vilifying individual opponents is standard partisan fare and not really a point of concern compared to the vilification of entire swayhs of ethnic, racial, and religious groups.

trying to both-sides it by saying "hey, your golden girl AOC isn't blameless herself" is not a worthwhile talking point.

also, at some point there's a tipping point where you can no longer be a good person and still vote trump.

while not wholly evil, you're certainly more bad person than good - even if you try to balance out the karmic ledgers.

imho we're past that tipping point

[pancakes3]

f*cking hell, the president just told sitting congresswomen - women specifically - to go back to where they came from.

is that sinking in?

[queridiculo]

f*cking hell, the president just told sitting congresswomen - women specifically - to go back to where they came from.

is that sinking in?

Another scrap to keep people from talking about the important issues.

Deficit, anyone?

[dobrojim]

I definitely think it’s a both parties issue. Although I usually vote R I have to hold my nose when I do so most of the time. D’s are worse in most ways but R’s deserve plenty of severe criticism for the Iraq war and out of control spending to name just two of the most recent mistakes.

Our system of government is unworkable because of several major SC decisions (thanks to D appointments) that allowed congress to spend money in areas previously reserved to the states and to buy votes of their favored constituents. The government was intended to have limited and enumerated powers but SC changed all that and now there is no going back. If you want to identify the single most influential cause of our government disfunction that was it IMO.

Could you point to specific examples of this- NEVER MIND, I see you did this.

I think the most damaging SC decisions of the last 20 or so years have both
been the result of the conservatives on the SC.

Bush v Gore - handed the election to frat boy who, if not for Trump, would be
strongly in the lead for worst president since say 1900.

and

Citizens United which basically says govt policy is for sale to the highest bidder.

[dobrojim]

[major snippage]

Shouldn’t our country operate the same way? Yes there will be people who game the system. And work with incredible innovation to do the least work possible and live off of somebody else’s efforts. It’s shxtty. I hate that feeling. Getting beat. However. It will happen.

But which is worse: that sometimes people will get away with stealing. Or that sometimes babies will die. Old people will freeze to death. That people will be murdered by neglect. By lack of care. Which is the worse sin? Theft? Or manslaughter.

That first paragraph gets right to the heart of one of my biggest issues with
many conservatives and I'll begin by saying this is a generalization-

People that argue that welfare is too generous because some people will outright cheat
or become disinclined to become independently successful tend to ignore how
well the (rest of the) system works, in unjust and unfair ways, for those who have the money
needed to buy the influence to make that happen.

Corporate welfare is likely to be orders of magnitude more generous to its
beneficiaries than the meager amounts of money that are spent to insure
a basic floor of existence, especially when you consider the cheating and
ethically dubious means used to accomplish their becoming govt policy.

So folks who complain about welfare cheaters but are crickets when it comes
to corporate welfare get my goat. Perspective.

This reminds me of the cons who I recently heard ranting about a proposed congressional
pay increase but said nothing about the fact that the tax reform they passed gave them
75x the increase in income compared to the $4k increase these same folks were whining
about.

[dobrojim]

f*cking hell, the president just told sitting congresswomen - women specifically - to go back to where they came from.

is that sinking in?

Another scrap to keep people from talking about the important issues.

Deficit, anyone?

GOP are the biggest hypocrites ever when it comes to the deficit.
For 8 years all we ever heard about was how evil all this govt spending
was while BHO was POTUS. Now...but GOP voters suck it up like that
is what their reps were supposed to do, complain about it when the
other side does it, even if under the circumstances it wasn't completely
irrational, not that every aspect of it was by any means perfect. But then
double down on it when they themselves are in power and doing so provides
a phenomenal ROI to their donor base. And when economic conditions would
suggest a completely different approach. The GOP is completely disingenuous
and critiquing in utterly bad faith.

[popper]

Yeah. No excuse for Trump to say such a thing. More trash from his vile mouth. Very Disappointing.

And yes, R politicians are hypocrites for not proposing a balanced budget. They’re surrendering to self interest knowing that the combination of tax increases and spending cuts would likely cost them their jobs (at least that’s their perception). As I posted a few weeks ago, there’s only about a dozen or so in congress that are genuine in their desire for a balanced budget. Ultimately voters are to blame for not caring either. The deficits and debt will continue to pile up until enough voters decide to care.

Trump should be toast next November. The only possible chance he has is if the eventual D nominee scares suburban women more than Trump does (not likely) and the economy remains strong. For instance, if the D nominee supports the following then Trump might have a fighting chance:

Decriminalize illegal border crossings
Cancel 180 million employer provided insurance plans to make way for M4A
Free state college tuition and canceling student debt resulting in
Large middle class tax increases to pay for all of the above.

Not sure suburban women care about raising the taxes on the rich (probably not) and Corp tax increases shouldn’t bother them too much unless CBO scores a big job loss forecast as a result.

Bottom line. It should be a cakewalk for D’s.

[dckingsfan]

Yeah. No excuse for Trump to say such a thing. More trash from his vile mouth. Very Disappointing.

And yes, R politicians are hypocrites for not proposing a balanced budget. They’re surrendering to self interest knowing that the combination of tax increases and spending cuts would likely cost them their jobs (at least that’s their perception). As I posted a few weeks ago, there’s only about a dozen or so in congress that are genuine in their desire for a balanced budget. Ultimately voters are to blame for not caring either. The deficits and debt will continue to pile up until enough voters decide to care.

Trump should be toast next November. The only possible chance he has is if the eventual D nominee scares suburban women more than Trump does (not likely) and the economy remains strong. For instance, if the D nominee supports the following then Trump might have a fighting chance:

Decriminalize illegal border crossings
Cancel 180 million employer provided insurance plans to make way for M4A
Free state college tuition and canceling student debt resulting in
Large middle class tax increases to pay for all of the above.

Not sure suburban women care about raising the taxes on the rich (probably not) and Corp tax increases shouldn’t bother them too much unless CBO scores a big job loss forecast as a result.

Bottom line. It should be a cakewalk for D’s.

So bro... you going to join Ryan, Bush and the oodles of solid Rs not voting for Trump?

[popper]

Yeah. No excuse for Trump to say such a thing. More trash from his vile mouth. Very Disappointing.

And yes, R politicians are hypocrites for not proposing a balanced budget. They’re surrendering to self interest knowing that the combination of tax increases and spending cuts would likely cost them their jobs (at least that’s their perception). As I posted a few weeks ago, there’s only about a dozen or so in congress that are genuine in their desire for a balanced budget. Ultimately voters are to blame for not caring either. The deficits and debt will continue to pile up until enough voters decide to care.

Trump should be toast next November. The only possible chance he has is if the eventual D nominee scares suburban women more than Trump does (not likely) and the economy remains strong. For instance, if the D nominee supports the following then Trump might have a fighting chance:

Decriminalize illegal border crossings
Cancel 180 million employer provided insurance plans to make way for M4A
Free state college tuition and canceling student debt resulting in
Large middle class tax increases to pay for all of the above.

Not sure suburban women care about raising the taxes on the rich (probably not) and Corp tax increases shouldn’t bother them too much unless CBO scores a big job loss forecast as a result.

Bottom line. It should be a cakewalk for D’s.

So bro... you going to join Ryan, Bush and the oodles of solid Rs not voting for Trump?

I’d like to but it’s up to D’s to nominate someone with rational policy positions. As I’ve said before, had D’s nominated Jim Web instead of HRC I would have voted D last time over orange man.

[pancakes3]

"oh sure i'll vote for D's if they'd just abandon every single one of their major platforms, and even then, even if dems did put forth a centrist whose position did not include decriminalizing borders, m4a, free college tuition, and large middle class tax increases, i still would probably vote for jim webb. total cakewalk."

[dobrojim]

Yeah. No excuse for Trump to say such a thing. More trash from his vile mouth. Very Disappointing.

And yes, R politicians are hypocrites for not proposing a balanced budget. They’re surrendering to self interest knowing that the combination of tax increases and spending cuts would likely cost them their jobs (at least that’s their perception). As I posted a few weeks ago, there’s only about a dozen or so in congress that are genuine in their desire for a balanced budget. Ultimately voters are to blame for not caring either. The deficits and debt will continue to pile up until enough voters decide to care.

Trump should be toast next November. The only possible chance he has is if the eventual D nominee scares suburban women more than Trump does (not likely) and the economy remains strong. For instance, if the D nominee supports the following then Trump might have a fighting chance:

Decriminalize illegal border crossings
Cancel 180 million employer provided insurance plans to make way for M4A
Free state college tuition and canceling student debt resulting in
Large middle class tax increases to pay for all of the above.

Not sure suburban women care about raising the taxes on the rich (probably not) and Corp tax increases shouldn’t bother them too much unless CBO scores a big job loss forecast as a result.

Bottom line. It should be a cakewalk for D’s.

The balanced budget (amendment or as outright policy) is a bad idea.
So I don't fault them for not doing that. I do fault them big time for
pretending they're high minded responsible representatives, fiscally conservative ones
at that, when their only 2 governing philosophies seem to be:

1. stay in power no matter how many votes you suppress...easier to suppress
than to swallow hard and develop and support policies that would address the concerns of
those who you believe, not without good cause, are predisposed to vote for your opponent.

2. Be against everything the other side is for even on those rare occasions
when there appears to be a reasonable consensus. Having govt actually
function well would damage their long time narrative that govt is incapable
of doing anything beneficial.

It should be a cakewalk for the dems, and maybe it will be, but I have my doubts.
Propanganda ie lies work really well (admittedly for either side) when the lies that are told are
what listeners already believe, but only one side has Faux news
which might as well be considered an arm of the GOP.

[FAH1223]

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[Pointgod]

You see where you guys took that... I hate to do it but please cite where daoneandonly said people have abortions because they want to murder babies? What I remember when having the discussion (and it was long and circuitous) is that people were selfish and complicit in murder (you see the difference between "want to murder babies"?). And you know I completely disagree with him on the subject (in my opinion he didn't have answers to the problem).

Second - seeing a pregnant women begging for money. That is anecdotal - very sad but anecdotal. Did you stop. Did you buy her lunch? Did you find out if she needed help and why?

And third, you repeatedly come back with the Trump = executions = Nazi. You guys might not like that you are making the argument but you have repeatedly done so. If you are going to show some real awareness of history and can cite parallels between Hitler and Trump. Go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump (which you are doing when you say "rounding up Liberals and Democrats and started executing them". Zonk will now scream at me and say how dare you. But that's my challenge if you want to use that kind of logic.

For example - if you could show how mass deportation eventually leads to mass execution, I am all ears.

Daoneandonly has said many times that Democrats are baby murders and has directed it at posters in the political thread. He was probably saying it tongue in cheek or as hyperbole but I don’t really care because he’s a nut bag that I don’t take very seriously. My hypothetical wasn’t even posed directly at anything he’s said but rather his line of thinking “if it doesn’t affect me I don’t care or if it’s against the people I don’t care for then it’s fine”. Yes it was very extreme and that’s the point how far are you willing to let things go because of insane partisanship? It’s a question that’s not that hard to answer. For example, I despise white supremacists and think they’re the lowest of lows that actually represent a threat to non white people, but if some President started rounding them up and started executing them because they could, I’d burn down any administration and political party that supported that. Even terrorists deserve due process.

See how easy that is to answer?

As for your offense of comparing Trump to Nazis, my question is why is mass extermination where we have to draw the line? We know for a fact that migrants are dying while in detention, we know for a fact they’re being subjected to inhumane conditions that we wouldn’t subject animals to, little girls have been sexually abused. Trump is authorizing immigration raids this weekend, which will undoubtedly hurt people and do nothing to address the underlying problem. Rock bottom has already been passed, Republicans cheered Trump when he wanted to ban a whole religion from entering the country. Even if all the comparisons to Hitler stopped, these things would still be going on and it’s only going to get worse. This is happening because of Trump, enabled by Republicans in Congress and supported by Republican voters.

Remember Popper and daoneandonly gladly support Trump and the Republican Party that enables all of this. I don’t for one second believe that they won’t vote for Trump and all Republicans next election, which means that for all their morally superiority, they’ll gladly abandon their religious values for partisan politics. So I ask them and I’m going to pose this question to you dckingsfan as well, how far is too far as long as it’s not your side?

Yep, that is a difficult question. If any kind of "extermination" started happening - that would be way over my line. Regardless, I will never vote for Trump. He is racist. He has dementia. He doesn't care about sustainable government. On climate change, he is a denialist.

But what order of magnitude of people died making the trek vs. being incarcerated? How do we stop those treks from happening? Note: There is no justification for ever separating a child from their parent.

Question: how far is too far on the other side? Open boarders (is that rock bottom?)? Free social services for those that come into the country (what do we cut to make that happen?)? Making immigration in the US a black & white subject isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Look at the UK and Brexit - what drove that? Immigration. Truly, I want the Democratic party to have a platform that I WANT to vote for in this election cycle - but damn, they make it hard. And to answer your question in advance. Yes, I will vote against Trump.

BTW, daoneandonly & Popper voting for Trump will only hasten the demise of the R party (as it will end up morally bankrupt in the end) although that end won't come as soon as you would like.

There shouldn’t be any reason for a single preventable death of a migrant while in custody. That’s just not something you should accept. People shouldn’t be put in cages where they sleep standing up, they shouldn’t be assaulted and be held in deplorable conditions. I suggest that you, Popper, daoneandonly and anyone else who thinks this isn’t a human rights crises read first hand accounts of people who were held in these detention centres. The problem at he border begins and ends with Trump and the Republican Party. Do you think it’s a coincidence that you didn’t have this magnitude of problems when Obama was in office? No it’s 100% because of Trump’s policies and his idiotic rhetoric.

This isn’t a situation where you can both sides it. As far as the left goes regardless of what you think of their policies (framing it as open borders or free social services is disingenuous) none of their policies proposed are objectively cruel, morally reprehensible or violate laws in the books. Immigration is a fairly straight forward issue if you look at actual data and facts. Immigrants are an absolute net benefit for all countries. What drove Brexit and Trump was a failure of capitalism, xenophobic rhetoric from right wingers and don’t forget Russian influence. You have idiots that were all too happy to give power to the same people who demonized immigrants but love cheap labor. The billionaire class uses racism and xenophobia to divide people and keep themselves rich. I’ve said this to you many times before, if racism was an instant disqualifier you’d get better politicians across all ends of the spectrum. Why? Because if you can’t scare people into voting against their own interests because of scary brown people, you actually have to focus policies that makes their lives better. Right wing politicians across the world scare people into hating immigrants, different ethnic groups and religions but no one has ever shown me an example of where a country got better because of their policies. But what we do know is that once they’re in power they’re even more corrupt and only look out for their own self interest.

[DCZards]

Once Obama and the Clinton's became merely new names for the Antichrist, it became possible to sneak this cretinous bad seed into office under the guise of patriotism.

I have friends and family that presumably still support Trump. I tell them how sad I am that our president openly promotes discrimination against our darker skinned friends and relatives, hates free speech, hates all criticism, openly loves power mad tyrants, and openly worships himself. At this point, that is as gentle as my persuasion can be. I care about my Trump-supporting friends and relatives. I want to save them. I am running out of ideas.

I think we’re all running out of the ideas. With each passing day, it becomes more and more obvious that Trump is the most dishonest, most selfish, most bigoted, most sexist, most ill-informed, most divisive (and I could go on) president in the history of this country. At least in my lifetime.

It’s really, really sad to see this president take this country and his party back to a time of discrimination and bigotry that we ALL should vehemently reject. And it’s downright scary to see so-called good people in the Republican Party and on the right remain silent when #45 makes comments like he did today about the four Democratic congresswoman.

But I guess racism is just as real and pervasive in 2019 as it has been throughout this country’s history.

I’m really not interested in figuring out how we get those people who still support Trump to not to vote for him in 2020. Those people are morally bankrupt, imo.

I’m MUCH more interested in making sure we get to the polls those millions of people who failed to vote in 2016, especially those who in live in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan and a few other key states. I'm sure those people now recognize that they made a HUGE mistake by not voting in 2016 and helping to elect the clown who lives in the White House.