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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#421 » by hands11 » Tue May 12, 2009 3:37 am

doclinkin wrote:
Ruzious wrote:As much as Doc, Nate, and others are Curry fans, I'm in the tank for Lawson - who has been ranked lower than Curry most - if not all - season. I think he fits into today's NBA game a lot better than Curry will. Watching a guy like Aaron Brooks - who's basically a poor-man's Lawson talent-wise - basically beat the Lakers by himself the other day - and he's been extremely effective throughout the playoffs - it shows you the value of a penetrating PG is - a PG who always gets in the lane. Curry just is not that type of guard and doesn't have that type of extreme quickness. The Lakers couldn't do a thing against Brooks' quickness - and that makes the pick n roll unstoppable, and then all you need from your wing men is the ability to hit open 3's.

And he can play off the ball, as well. The DX article confirms that with his excellent catch and shoot percentage.


I like Ty Lawson just fine. Fast, sturdy; measures short because his head is fixed directly to his torso with no interference from a neck. Can finish in and among the trees, tough enough to take contact. He definitely has the physical talent bonafides to meet or surpass Curry on raw athleticism.

As far as this team goes either one would be an immediate good fit and an upgrade, Lawson maybe even more so due to the sudden influx of athleticism. I give Curry the edge on intangibles, intelligence, in-game adjustment. I like his development and project it down the line as a team leader type without needing the ball to dominate. And on this team the ability to play off the ball is a key asset.

Let me be clear, I liked Curry as a trade down prospect. With the draft pool thinning I suspect Curry will go higher than his _immediate_ impact warrants. Still like the kid, but it's not like he's underrated now. Still in 5 years I think he'll be rated as one of the better picks for the $. I'm always willing to say it's a risky pick, not trying to convince anybody but myself. He just reads as something interesting. Smooth, undercontrol even in the middle of havoc. Big-leageu smarts and poise. This team needs that.

Dat's list has a few of the guys I like, in much the same order. Missing a couple adding some I distrust intensely: (I don't like Derozan much, despite unmatched athletix).

I'd had Aaron Jackson (Duquesne Dukes) as a round 2 sleeper or undrafted pick up (if we had a roster spot). DX also noticed his insane FG%. Stats took a bump up this year, but there's a reason for it. Kid took a gunshot wound through the wrist while saving a teammate from a random shooting (possibly pissed off opposing fan, IIRC). The near-death situation drove the other victims off the team, but Ajax dialed in and suddenly got focused. Interviews show a nice kid, hard worker, good attitude. If he doesn't land on his feet in the NBA he's one of those types who will go to Europe at least for a couple years, improve his game as needed, then collect interest from the NBA.

Detroit and the Spurs always pick up kids like this.


And Curry has to catch and pop skills that we need. He is also fundamentally sound. He has the mental part that often goes undervalued.

As for Blake. Something still just doesn't feel right. I could be dead wrong but all I see him do is dunk which is nice but I just wonder how much of that he will be able to do against the bigger stronger NBA talent. I don't think he will be a bust. He should be able to body up some players and get some rebounds but I think it's going to take him some time to become a real impact. He isn't going to be a Duncan. Does anyone have any stats on his vertical ? For all his dunking, he doesn't look like he gets a ton of lift. College players basically got out of his way. As of today, I would take McGee over Blake.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#422 » by nate33 » Tue May 12, 2009 3:40 am

VictorPage44 wrote:James Harden has been a monster his entire career at ASU. He was carrying the team as a true freshman, and he's still only 19. I think he could immediately start for us along side gilbert as he's a high IQ player with a good shot, who DX claims is also at his best in transition. His stats look even more sound when you consider that ASU played at a pace of 60 possessions per game, not an up and down tempo by any stretch. This shows that he has the ability to create in the half court.

His ceiling may not be as high as Curry's, but I cant see him being a bust. It's hard to argue against Curry, but his size could definately limit his effectiveness if his offensive game isnt as dynamic as exected. Harden's transition to NCAA level basketball leads me to think that he'll find a way to contribute and probably do it pretty quickly. Like I said, Harden would be my first choice at #3.

The knock against Harden is that he appears to be an average athlete. There's nothing that stands out about his length, quickness, or jumping ability. Most heady SG's with no real athleticism and no elite shooting touch don't pan out to be much more than role players.

I'll be real interested in seeing Harden's workout measurements. If he tests well in the strength, lane agility and 3/4 court sprint, I might change my opinion about him. I remember I was unenthusiastic about Hinrich until the workouts. Hinrich proved to be one of the elite athletes of his draft. He had fantastic lane agility and 3/4 sprint times. At that point, I was ready to consider him a top 10 pick. Maybe Harden turns out to be similar, an underrated athlete.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#423 » by nate33 » Tue May 12, 2009 4:29 am

hands11 wrote:As for Blake. Something still just doesn't feel right. I could be dead wrong but all I see him do is dunk which is nice but I just wonder how much of that he will be able to do against the bigger stronger NBA talent. I don't think he will be a bust. He should be able to body up some players and get some rebounds but I think it's going to take him some time to become a real impact. He isn't going to be a Duncan. Does anyone have any stats on his vertical ? For all his dunking, he doesn't look like he gets a ton of lift. College players basically got out of his way. As of today, I would take McGee over Blake.

Griffin bumped his head on the backboard when dunking during the NCAA tournament. There's nothing wrong with his vertical leap.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#424 » by Benjammin » Tue May 12, 2009 4:58 am

I've seen various reports that Griffin's vertical is 37-38". I'm not sure he will test out that well, but if he's close that would be outstanding. He also supposedly has a 7-1" wingspan. That would be nothing special, but not awful either. Of course, we're all wondering what he will measure for height. If I had to make a guess, I'll say just under 6-8 without shoes and 6-9-6-9 1/2 with shoes.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#425 » by hands11 » Tue May 12, 2009 10:22 am

nate33 wrote:
hands11 wrote:As for Blake. Something still just doesn't feel right. I could be dead wrong but all I see him do is dunk which is nice but I just wonder how much of that he will be able to do against the bigger stronger NBA talent. I don't think he will be a bust. He should be able to body up some players and get some rebounds but I think it's going to take him some time to become a real impact. He isn't going to be a Duncan. Does anyone have any stats on his vertical ? For all his dunking, he doesn't look like he gets a ton of lift. College players basically got out of his way. As of today, I would take McGee over Blake.

Griffin bumped his head on the backboard when dunking during the NCAA tournament. There's nothing wrong with his vertical leap.


Yeah I saw that but is that really a measure of hops when NBA players with hops get their heads to the rim ? Maybe I'm just spoiled watching McGee. Speaking off McGee, I was just watching an old interview with his mother and she said he measures 7-1 without shoes and was still in a growth spurt. She was talking about how he hasn't filled out yet because his body hasn't slowed down and that the men in the family mature late. Said he had the body of a 19 year old. The was done during the season but his info page has yet to be updated.

As for Blake, maybe I'm worrying to much. Something just doesn't feel right to me. Hard to put my finger on it. Maybe it's all the hype. Or it's his eyes are to close together. I'm just a little worried about a guy from a smaller program who over powered the competition with his strength and who scored so much on dunks. I just don't see him as near a finished product. Things won't be nearly as easy for him among the tree and beefier bodies of the NBA. Now if he was already a great defender with a higher FT %, I would feel a better about things.

Number 1 is supposed to be the guy who leads you to a championship but it obviously isn't always the case. I never really liked AI as that player but he put up good stats.

http://www.nbahoopsonline.com/History/L ... picks.html

There are lots of good players taken #1 but the top tier stands out.
Duncan, D Howard, LeBron, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing and Akeem

The lower tier also stands out.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#426 » by LyricalRico » Tue May 12, 2009 11:56 am

hands11 wrote:I'm just a little worried about a guy from a smaller program who over powered the competition with his strength and who scored so much on dunks. I just don't see him as near a finished product.

<snip>

There are lots of good players taken #1 but the top tier stands out.
Duncan, D Howard, LeBron, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing and Akeem


LOL

Two of the guys you listed as good #1 overall picks fit your same concerns listed above about Griffin. Keep 'em comin'!
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#427 » by Kanyewest » Tue May 12, 2009 1:24 pm

I'm also curious what Blake Griffin's offensive translates into in the NBA especially since I haven't seen much of him in college.All I've seen from college highlights over the internet is him dunking over opponents but will that work against bigger/athletic opponents in the NBA. It remains to be seen if Griffin can overpower his opponents like Shaq and Dwight Howard. Would you guys say he's comparable to Kenyon Martin when he came out of college?
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#428 » by nate33 » Tue May 12, 2009 1:37 pm

hands11 wrote:Number 1 is supposed to be the guy who leads you to a championship but it obviously isn't always the case. I never really liked AI as that player but he put up good stats.

http://www.nbahoopsonline.com/History/L ... picks.html

There are lots of good players taken #1 but the top tier stands out.
Duncan, D Howard, LeBron, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing and Akeem

The lower tier also stands out.

I don't think anybody considers Griffin to be in the same tier as Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, etc. Griffin is a solid #1 prospect, but nobody is ready to put him in the Hall of Fame yet.

I figure he'll be about as good as an Elton Brand, Al Jefferson or Carlos Boozer. Good enough to make a few all star games and good enough to be the best big man on a championship team. But I don't think he'll be good enough to carry a team to a championship with him as the best overall player on his team. He'll need a top notch guard and a quality defensive center to help him. Fortunately, we have that.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#429 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue May 12, 2009 5:09 pm

nate, I figure he'll be better than Boozer, Brand, and Jefferson. None of those guys have his athleticism. Not even close with Boozer and Jefferson. Brand at his best didn't do what Griffin can do.

People talk about his dunks but what makes Griffin special is the way he rebounds and finishes in traffic. Also, he's an extremely good ball handler and passer. Griffin's NCAA season double doubles were the highest since Olajuwon. His FG% was just sick and he didn't do it all on dunks.

I'm thinking he's a more athletic Karl Malone. He'll have to get injured or really take on some bad ways to NOT BE a perennial all star.

Griffin's a great talent.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#430 » by Da HomeTeam » Tue May 12, 2009 6:09 pm

nate33 wrote:
VictorPage44 wrote:James Harden has been a monster his entire career at ASU. He was carrying the team as a true freshman, and he's still only 19. I think he could immediately start for us along side gilbert as he's a high IQ player with a good shot, who DX claims is also at his best in transition. His stats look even more sound when you consider that ASU played at a pace of 60 possessions per game, not an up and down tempo by any stretch. This shows that he has the ability to create in the half court.

His ceiling may not be as high as Curry's, but I cant see him being a bust. It's hard to argue against Curry, but his size could definately limit his effectiveness if his offensive game isnt as dynamic as exected. Harden's transition to NCAA level basketball leads me to think that he'll find a way to contribute and probably do it pretty quickly. Like I said, Harden would be my first choice at #3.

The knock against Harden is that he appears to be an average athlete. There's nothing that stands out about his length, quickness, or jumping ability. Most heady SG's with no real athleticism and no elite shooting touch don't pan out to be much more than role players.

I'll be real interested in seeing Harden's workout measurements. If he tests well in the strength, lane agility and 3/4 court sprint, I might change my opinion about him. I remember I was unenthusiastic about Hinrich until the workouts. Hinrich proved to be one of the elite athletes of his draft. He had fantastic lane agility and 3/4 sprint times. At that point, I was ready to consider him a top 10 pick. Maybe Harden turns out to be similar, an underrated athlete.


Here we go again with Hinrich....smh
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#431 » by Kanyewest » Tue May 12, 2009 7:08 pm

nate33 wrote:The knock against Harden is that he appears to be an average athlete. There's nothing that stands out about his length, quickness, or jumping ability. Most heady SG's with no real athleticism and no elite shooting touch don't pan out to be much more than role players.

I'll be real interested in seeing Harden's workout measurements. If he tests well in the strength, lane agility and 3/4 court sprint, I might change my opinion about him. I remember I was unenthusiastic about Hinrich until the workouts. Hinrich proved to be one of the elite athletes of his draft. He had fantastic lane agility and 3/4 sprint times. At that point, I was ready to consider him a top 10 pick. Maybe Harden turns out to be similar, an underrated athlete.


Isn't Hinrich at this point just a role player (although pretty good) for the Chicago Bulls?
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#432 » by nate33 » Tue May 12, 2009 7:24 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
nate33 wrote:The knock against Harden is that he appears to be an average athlete. There's nothing that stands out about his length, quickness, or jumping ability. Most heady SG's with no real athleticism and no elite shooting touch don't pan out to be much more than role players.

I'll be real interested in seeing Harden's workout measurements. If he tests well in the strength, lane agility and 3/4 court sprint, I might change my opinion about him. I remember I was unenthusiastic about Hinrich until the workouts. Hinrich proved to be one of the elite athletes of his draft. He had fantastic lane agility and 3/4 sprint times. At that point, I was ready to consider him a top 10 pick. Maybe Harden turns out to be similar, an underrated athlete.


Isn't Hinrich at this point just a role player (although pretty good) for the Chicago Bulls?

Hinrich at least has one superior NBA skill: the ability to defend the perimeter. He's average on offense and among the best at his position on defense. Unless Harden is more athletic than we think, I don't see him being significantly above-average at anything.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#433 » by doclinkin » Tue May 12, 2009 7:26 pm

nate33 wrote:I figure he'll be about as good as an Elton Brand, Al Jefferson or Carlos Boozer. Good enough to make a few all star games and good enough to be the best big man on a championship team. But I don't think he'll be good enough to carry a team to a championship with him as the best overall player on his team. He'll need a top notch guard and a quality defensive center to help him. Fortunately, we have that.



The only thing limiting Blake Griffin's potential will be his willingness to work and his coaching. He's got all the athleticism he needs and then some. Jeff Capel says he's as reckless and competitively aggressive in practice (diving for balls fighting his brother for position) as he is on court. John Thompson said the only guy he ever had that was the same way all the time was Alonzo Mourning. The primary difference between the two: John Thompson & Pat Riley -vs- who? Flip?

If we landed Blake, I'd love to see Zo as his Big Man coach, a bit of the Georgetown defensive pride and nastiness. Unfazeable meets undaunted becomes unstoppable. But as far as athleticism, there are few guys in the world with that combination of raw rugged power and athleticism. He just needs someone to channel it for him.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#434 » by nate33 » Tue May 12, 2009 7:29 pm

^
And I didn't mean for this to become a comparison of Hinrich versus Harden. I just used Hinrich as an example of a guy who moved up in the draft board once his measurements were taken. He's deceptively athletic. Maybe Harden is too.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#435 » by nate33 » Tue May 12, 2009 7:35 pm

I didn't mean to demean Griffin by comparing him to Jefferson and Boozer. I'm just struggling to find a comparison. Clearly, Griffin isn't a game-changing defensive force at center like Duncan, Zo, Hakeem etc., so you can't compare him to those guys. The best PF's in the game over the past decade have been Garnett and Duncan; and Griffin is nothing like them. The next tier of guys include Brand, Bosh, Boozer, JO, pre-injury KMart and Jefferson. I think the best comparisons among that group are Boozer and Jefferson simply because Griffin is so strong.

Maybe you have to go back a little further to find an equivalent comparison. Maybe a young Antonio McDyess? Maybe a bigger Charles Barkley without the ball handling skills? It's tough to say. I'm just not ready to compare him to Karl Malone yet. Karl Malone might have been the best PF of all time.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#436 » by doclinkin » Tue May 12, 2009 8:02 pm

nate33 wrote:I didn't mean to demean Griffin by comparing him to Jefferson and Boozer. I'm just struggling to find a comparison. Clearly, Griffin isn't a game-changing defensive force at center like Duncan, Zo, Hakeem etc., so you can't compare him to those guys. The best PF's in the game over the past decade have been Garnett and Duncan; and Griffin is nothing like them. The next tier of guys include Brand, Bosh, Boozer, JO, pre-injury KMart and Jefferson. I think the best comparisons among that group are Boozer and Jefferson simply because Griffin is so strong.

Maybe you have to go back a little further to find an equivalent comparison. Maybe a young Antonio McDyess? Maybe a bigger Charles Barkley without the ball handling skills? It's tough to say. I'm just not ready to compare him to Karl Malone yet. Karl Malone might have been the best PF of all time.


If no Karl Malone I'd go with a more low-post interested Amare Stoudamire as a comparison. Though I think BGriff will prove a better rebounder --and if tutored well, a more intimidating defender.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#437 » by DCZards » Tue May 12, 2009 8:08 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
nate, I figure he'll be better than Boozer, Brand, and Jefferson. None of those guys have his athleticism. Not even close with Boozer and Jefferson. Brand at his best didn't do what Griffin can do.


Boozer, Brand and Jefferson may not have Griffin's athleticism but all three have other skills that Blake has yet to exhibit, most notably on offense. Brand, who you dis', is an outstanding jumpshooting big man and a great shotblocker--two strengths that Griffin clearly doesn't have. And, while Blake will almost certainly become a better shooter, I doubt that he'll ever be as good a shotblocker or defender as Brand.

BTW, I'm still on the "draft Tyreke Evans bandwagon." Yes, Evans needs to improve his perimeter shooting, cutdown on his turnovers and learn to pass more and shoot less--not unlike many kids coming out of college. But the skills that Evans' lacks can be learned, developed, taught, coached. What can't be taught is length, athleticism, and toughness, and Evans has plenty of all three. Evans is already a solid 6-5 and will probably be closer to 6-7 by the time he finishes growing.

I know folks on this board are fascinated with Rubio (especially with the comparisons to Nash) but I believe Evans will be a much better all-around player, particularly on the defensive end...which, btw, is where the Wizards need the most help.

Of course, I can see the Zards taking Griffin over Evans because we could use Blake's size and strength around the basket.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#438 » by yungal07 » Tue May 12, 2009 8:23 pm

Evans biggest problem is that he plays like Jamal Crawford, which basically means he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. No thank you. It's damn near impossible to teach a player like that to play off the ball. Just look at Nick Young.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#439 » by Dat2U » Tue May 12, 2009 8:44 pm

doclinkin wrote:
If no Karl Malone I'd go with a more low-post interested Amare Stoudamire as a comparison. Though I think BGriff will prove a better rebounder --and if tutored well, a more intimidating defender.


I agree. He's got Karl Malone's build but Amare's explosiveness and desire to dunk on everyone. What sold me on Griffin was his demeanor. He's focused and intense. He works incredibly hard and gives 110% every time. He also has some of Duncan's traits in that he's stoic and a class individual.

IMO he'll do everything to get better. The only thing that will stop this kid would be prolonged visits with the Wizards doctors and medical staff.

I don't see the Boozer, Al Jefferson comparison's at all. Those guys relied more on skill and weren't in the same atmosphere in terms of Griffin's athleticism. KMart was a high riser but had no low post game to speak of and was a poor rebounder. Griffin is skilled within five feet of the basket (he's great at creating a shot for himself in the paint even with 3 people on him) and was a dominant rebounder at the NCAA level.

I truly believe Griffin is a 15-18 foot jumper away from potentially being as good as Karl Malone was in his prime.
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Re: Wizards Board Draft Thread II 

Post#440 » by Dat2U » Tue May 12, 2009 8:50 pm

yungal07 wrote:Evans biggest problem is that he plays like Jamal Crawford, which basically means he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. No thank you. It's damn near impossible to teach a player like that to play off the ball. Just look at Nick Young.


Evans is more like Larry Hughes. In fact he's a carbon copy. What Evans has going for him is his solid frame which allows him to attack the basket recklessly, finish among bigs and avoid those nagging injuries that plagued Hughes career.

Another comparison for Evans is a bigger version of Rodney Stuckey. Problem with Evans is that he's not a PG IMO. Like Hughes & Stuckey, he's got PG quality skills but he's a scorer 1st, a scorer 2nd, and a distributor 3rd.

The question is will be be as incredibly stubborn as Hughes was or will he be more willing to work within a team concept and not be so selfish. In this draft I view him as the 3rd or 4th best prospect ahead or behind Steph Curry on any given day.

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