The Javale McGee Appreciation Thread

[hands11]

http://twitter.com/bigdaddywookie/status/21273955420

[willbcocks]

Mind posting the text for those of us in China who can't read twitter?

[Ruzious]

I don't think Jav will ever be Haywood defensively, but it'd be foolish to right him off as a 20 minute max player. A lot of us followed Haywood for years and never would have thought he'd be where he is defensively. And that was after 4 years with tremendous coaching at UNC. He was totally clueless his first 2 years with the Wizards - and older than Jav. Big men typically develop slowly, and Jav especially has an excuse because he's been a late grower. Most players stop growing height-wise as teenagers, and he was still gowing as a 22 year old.

I would have to disagree. Some of us saw Haywood had it. With Haywood it was easy to see his defense would grow first and his offense would come along with more touches. I was always a Haywood believer.

With McGee it's the opposite. I still believe in the kid but hard to imagine him getting it as a defensive center until he starts to show more signs that the light is going on. But he can run like the wind for 5 minutes or so. Amazing leaps for his size. But again, he is NY at 7-1. If he only had a brain. But he is only 22. It's just going to take more time. In two years he should be pretty awesome.

Well, all I can say is more power to you if you really saw that, because Haywood made mistake after mistake after mistake, etc in his first couple of years here, and he was a very soft player back then - hence his rep. It was hard to watch, because every offensive and defensive possession, we could pick apart obvious mistakes he made. And going to the games regularly back then, most smart fans agreed with me. He was a physically talented but very bad player. He also acted like an immature goofball on the bench - like a character out of Beavis and Buthead - and this was a guy who had 4 years at UNC. He was nothing like the player and person he developed into.

[closg00]

Mind posting the text for those of us in China who can't read twitter?

It said:

Reporters who never played the game of basketball or never succeeded in it... Shouldn't b able to report on it #FACT

[nate33]

Well, all I can say is more power to you if you really saw that, because Haywood made mistake after mistake after mistake, etc in his first couple of years here, and he was a very soft player back then - hence his rep. It was hard to watch, because every offensive and defensive possession, we could pick apart obvious mistakes he made. And going to the games regularly back then, most smart fans agreed with me. He was a physically talented but very bad player. He also acted like an immature goofball on the bench - like a character out of Beavis and Buthead - and this was a guy who had 4 years at UNC. He was nothing like the player and person he developed into.

That's not true. Haywood was always a very good defender. He had a substantially positive on/off differential in each season that 82games.com posted numbers. I remember Doug Collins giving Haywood major minutes at center as a rookie and the team had some success.

For years, Haywood has been an awkward and mistake prone offensive player, but he was good on D from the get go. I'll cede that he has always had a rap for being a bit "soft", but that was mainly because he was unwilling to be an enforcer until much later in his career.

So far, I have seen no indication that McGee will ever pan out to reach Haywood's level defensively other than his pure length and athleticism.

[hands11]

I don't think Jav will ever be Haywood defensively, but it'd be foolish to right him off as a 20 minute max player. A lot of us followed Haywood for years and never would have thought he'd be where he is defensively. And that was after 4 years with tremendous coaching at UNC. He was totally clueless his first 2 years with the Wizards - and older than Jav. Big men typically develop slowly, and Jav especially has an excuse because he's been a late grower. Most players stop growing height-wise as teenagers, and he was still gowing as a 22 year old.

I would have to disagree. Some of us saw Haywood had it. With Haywood it was easy to see his defense would grow first and his offense would come along with more touches. I was always a Haywood believer.

With McGee it's the opposite. I still believe in the kid but hard to imagine him getting it as a defensive center until he starts to show more signs that the light is going on. But he can run like the wind for 5 minutes or so. Amazing leaps for his size. But again, he is NY at 7-1. If he only had a brain. But he is only 22. It's just going to take more time. In two years he should be pretty awesome.

Well, all I can say is more power to you if you really saw that, because Haywood made mistake after mistake after mistake, etc in his first couple of years here, and he was a very soft player back then - hence his rep. It was hard to watch, because every offensive and defensive possession, we could pick apart obvious mistakes he made. And going to the games regularly back then, most smart fans agreed with me. He was a physically talented but very bad player. He also acted like an immature goofball on the bench - like a character out of Beavis and Buthead - and this was a guy who had 4 years at UNC. He was nothing like the player and person he developed into.

Yeah, I remember those days. Before Brenda, he was Hands of Stone.

But one thing with Brendan, I always saw him improving. Hands of Stone really only lasted that one year as I recall. Then it was his footwork and his post moves that seemed off balance. But he got better at that. Then it was that he was a black hole. He would shoot every time he touched the ball. But then again, he hardly ever got the ball because we always had ball hogs and he was under utilized in the post. Then it was he didn't defensive rebound enough, but he was a great offensive rebounder. His man defense got better first but he was slower of foot so his team switching defense made him not look as good. Specially having to cover for AJ who was a slow footed terrible post defender. Then we had the complaining problems with EJ and Etan fights. But Haywood made progress each year. He was hitting the weights. He even fixed his free throw percentage eventually. He added a little hook. He learned to finish with both hands when dunking and keep the ball high. He even added a 10 foot shot.

Biggest problem with McGee is he is a 22 year old kid. Same problem we had with Dray. There can be a big difference between 22 and 23 and 24 in regards to maturity.

The good news is I think the environment is better here now for a younger player and I actually credit Sam Cassel a good bit for that. Flip and Sam are a better coaching staff then we have had in a long time.

It just wasn't a good environment for young players here before and we had to many of them. EJ and Abe's had there thing in between EG. EJ didn't teach D. Your best player Gil was a goof kid. Gil owned EJ and would just show up unannounced at halftime and say I'm ready to play after an injury. We ended up with more kids like Nick and even Dom. You had players like D Sleez.

But to be fair to McGee, if you look at Haywood's first two year numbers and McGee's, they are very similar only McGee is much more athletic so I think people expect more.

Maybe the biggest difference here is that I always felt Haywood knew he was a center and he worked on the things the team needed from him. He became a good defender pretty quickly. But McGee did hit the weights and added 7 pounds in only his second summer as an NBA player which is a good sign.

I'm not giving up on the kid at all. I actually liked him as our pick. I wanted a center that year and was looking at him or Hibbert. But I also know he was a project.

This should be a huge year in his development. Does he really wants to be one of the best centers and or a PF or a PF/C hybrid? He is going to have to show marked improvement with defensive concepts and at least become good at one aspect or another. Either become a good man defender or zone defender at center. If not, he isn't a center. At least not a good one.

I can see given all of this where it makes sense to just put him out there to make mistakes and let him develop. I suggested we do that with Dray back in the day. At the same time, given his age, I can see bringing him off the bench and developing him that way if he isn't doing what they ask of him and he isn't picking things up quick enough. Specially if he isn't putting in enough time studying. Dray showed to be a good defender pretty early one and he had the same rap as McGee. He was to thin and got winded. But Dray always had good court vision and a good feel for the game.

Again, games aren't for him to practice. You have to be accountable to the team. Other people are investing the time and working hard to get better. It's why Nick hasn't gotten into the starting line up even though he is very talented. But now Nick has even added some muscle.

I'm said this for a while now. I'm just not sure McGee is really a center. He could actually develop into an amazing player as a PF. Similar to Dray but more athletic. I don't see him as the passer Dray is but I believe he will become a better shooter with range in time and his handles will develop also.

But like when we added Dray, we have a bigger need at center than PF so that is the hole they are trying to fit him in. But again, if you want to start, you have to defend. Specially if your playing center. If not, your a role player.

We will have to see how it plays out.

[Ruzious]

Well, all I can say is more power to you if you really saw that, because Haywood made mistake after mistake after mistake, etc in his first couple of years here, and he was a very soft player back then - hence his rep. It was hard to watch, because every offensive and defensive possession, we could pick apart obvious mistakes he made. And going to the games regularly back then, most smart fans agreed with me. He was a physically talented but very bad player. He also acted like an immature goofball on the bench - like a character out of Beavis and Buthead - and this was a guy who had 4 years at UNC. He was nothing like the player and person he developed into.

That's not true. Haywood was always a very good defender. He had a substantially positive on/off differential in each season that 82games.com posted numbers. I remember Doug Collins giving Haywood major minutes at center as a rookie and the team had some success.

For years, Haywood has been an awkward and mistake prone offensive player, but he was good on D from the get go. I'll cede that he has always had a rap for being a bit "soft", but that was mainly because he was unwilling to be an enforcer until much later in his career.

So far, I have seen no indication that McGee will ever pan out to reach Haywood's level defensively other than his pure length and athleticism.

It's a matter of opinion - not fact. I completely disagree with you. I think your memory is a bit selective at times. We were talking about Haywood's 1st 2 years - I doubt 82games.com even existed in his rookie year; did it? Of course he got significant minutes in his rookie year - so did Kwame Brown. They didn't have any other big men other than L8ner and Popeye Jones. And they sucked - even with Michael Jordan and Rip Hamilton both scoring 20 plus a game. And didn't I just say "I don't think Jav will ever be Haywood defensively"?

[nate33]

82games.com did not exist in his rookie year. It does have the numbers for his second season. He made the team better on defense by 2.6 points per 100 possessions. He improved the team's opponent shooting percentage allowed and he improved the team's total rebounding percentage.

By Haywood's 3rd season, he had become a significant force on defense. His defensive on/off differential was a whopping 5.1 points per 100% and he started having a much bigger effect on the team rebounding. Haywood's 4th season was arguably the best of his career going by on/off numbers. His defensive on/off differential was 9.9. There's no easy way to look it up, but it wouldn't surprise me if that number led the league that year in defensive on/off differential.

I didn't mean to imply that you said McGee would be equal to Haywood defensively. That was my own editorial comment. To be fair to McGee, he played just 2 years in college in a sub-par program while Haywood had 4 under Dean Smith. It's reasonable to expect a longer learning curve for McGee in the pro's.

[Ruzious]

I agree - his 3rd year was when Haywood started to be a defensive force, but before then he was not an effective NBA player. Having a small positive +/- on a losing team doesn't necessarily mean anything positive.

[montestewart]

Mind posting the text for those of us in China who can't read twitter?

It said:

Reporters who never played the game of basketball or never succeeded in it... Shouldn't b able to report on it #FACT

Did McGee make that up? It's a brilliantly perverse logic, possibly analogous to, "People that can't cook should not be able to criticize restaurant food," or maybe even, "People that can't write a novel shouldn't read a novel." But would applying that rule result in a reduction or an increase in the percentage of sports reporters critical of McGee's game? It's a gamble Javale, especially when you pull the word "success" into the equation.

[pancakes3]

has anyone tweeted him back... "why?"

[Dat2U]

In training camp of his rookie year, Doug Collins compared Brendan Haywood to Robert Parish defensively.

I think Brendan was always a very good post defender, going to back to UNC, it was the lack of a post game, questionable hands & inconsistent effort that helped him earn the 'Brenda' moniker.

[verbal8]

Mind posting the text for those of us in China who can't read twitter?

It said:

Reporters who never played the game of basketball or never succeeded in it... Shouldn't b able to report on it #FACT

Did McGee make that up? It's a brilliantly perverse logic, possibly analogous to, "People that can't cook should not be able to criticize restaurant food," or maybe even, "People that can't write a novel shouldn't read a novel." But would applying that rule result in a reduction or an increase in the percentage of sports reporters critical of McGee's game? It's a gamble Javale, especially when you pull the word "success" into the equation.

Does this mean that if we can't play basketball well, we shouldn't be allowed to spend money attending Wizards game

I can understand McGee's frustrations, however I think he needs to focus on developing his game to the point where there is less to criticize rather than feeling unfairly criticized.

[Ruzious]

In training camp of his rookie year, Doug Collins compared Brendan Haywood to Robert Parish defensively.

I think Brendan was always a very good post defender, going to back to UNC, it was the lack of a post game, questionable hands & inconsistent effort that helped him earn the 'Brenda' moniker.

Doug Collins was pretty much an idiot and said a lot of stupid things as the Wiz coach, and you don't get called Brenda for having bad hands. And Haywood's hands were better than other young Washington bigs - Jahidi White and Kwame Brown - though Haywood would get out-muscled by guards at times - going for rebounds. I don't think Parrish did.

[fishercob]

I'd like to lock Javale in a small room with days worth of footage like this, and not let him out until he's wearing goggles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1yVfJs6OcI

[nate33]

I'd like to lock Javale in a small room with days worth of footage like this, and not let him out until he's wearing goggles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1yVfJs6OcI

Man, I had forgotten how much range Kareem had on that sky hook. He's hitting them from 15 feet! And with his length and elevation, it was literally unstoppable. There is just no way to defend that with single coverage.

[fishercob]

Simply unreal. And he did it with both hands! With his length and hops, think of where Javale could release his sky hook from.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlB8X101kME&feature=related[/youtube]

[WizarDynasty]

Javale probably has the weakest bench press of any center or powerforward in the league. There is no point in comparing him to kareem. Kareem was never as weak as javale mcgee.
Kareem foot coordination inside the paint was eons better than Javale also. Kareem (happy?) may have been skinny but he was wiry strong. Could McGee get a strong bench press if he worked at it as well far more polished footwork...probably if he was mentally disciplined.

[fishercob]

Who said anything about Wilt?

[Hoopalotta]

(now in the correct thread...)

Going from the Javale talk in the "Predict the Eastern Conference Standings" thread, my feeling is I'm not doing anything so far as making predictions or even looking too heavily into past events with him. or anyone, actually.

But my main data points would be:

A) Is he developing this next season?

Interpretations of the past could go on for a while, though I'll say that I think some of the negativity is overblown. His man defense has been terrible against guys with bulk (except for Big Baby), but the help-D is more undone by the "read" aspect as I think he's alright with the "react" angle. So, is he going to improve on the reads? That would go a hell of a long way as far as I'm concerned.

But, the team owes it to itself to go for a real assessment period before coming to any sorts of conclusions, so I see trade ideas over on the T&T board with McGee in them and have no idea what that's about. "Development & Assessment"; those are the mantras for now.

Looking forward.....as we do......though we really shouldn't.....

B) Is he going to get an insane contract offer based on his potential after two years that he can't live up to?

There's nothing anyone can do about this nor would this be a reason for anything to happen until something like, say, next offseason at the earliest, but there are some concerns longterm there. I'm particularly thinking of the Tyrus Thomas $40 million dollar contract, so if McGee were working out on the improvement angle, I still might be open to a move, but it would probably have to be for another young big. I actually think it Tyrus wasn't reputed to be a jerk and had ingratiated himself to the Bulls franchise, he'd have gotten a $50+ million offer from somebody and Chicago would have had a very difficult decision to make. Honestly, it was probably better that they were sick of him. I think this is also a big part of why Anthony Randolph was traded, though that was a cautionary tale for this sort of thing, being premature and ill-executed.

Does that pertain to McGee in practice as well as theory? I don't know; something to keep in mind, but on the back burner. I guess the good news is that Billy King already has a center.

Lastly.....

C) Is it a flawed premise to have two finesse bigs on (eventual) large contracts?

I wouldn't want to oversell this as it's secondary to that whole "assessment" angle and definitely could work out, but I wonder if Dray and McGee together is a bit soft going forward. It's not that either guy is terribly tissuey, but it's just that, in conjunction, we might be going a bit far in that direction. And this is keeping in mind that you're going to pay no higher premium for anything in the league than a scoring big, while conversely, you might end up winning based more on interior toughness. If Seraphin works out, then there's one gorgon on the roster, but we might get more holla' for the dolla' if we're talking two grinders and one finesse guy.

I see talk here of adding another big money player on the wing, but I think we'd be impossibly deep into tax land pretty soon thereafter, so it's not really realistic long term regardless of if we can squirrel up the cap space next offseason. It's one thing to "get" and it's another thing to "sustain" when all those 8% raises are kicking in. So point C is basically a subset of point B and it's not an indictment of anyone in particular so much as an acknowledgment of the peculiar interplay of our roster cross referenced with future salaries and actual winning.

Anyway, the main thing as of now is point A (assessment of development) as I don't really care so much about this year's actual win-loss tally and am rather just looking for a trial by fire for the young guys.