Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged )

[DaRealHibachi]

Saunders talks too much! He should know better than to go to the media about this. With all the mess that's going on with this franchise, this is the last thing they need to add to the list. I have to agree with the postee, who said Saunders wants out. Good riddance, get him outta here! I wish the Pollins would hurry and sale this team to Leonsis. Things that must be addressed during the offseason;

New Coach
Change the name of the team
Change everything about this team that is cursed.

+1

I'm far from a Flip basher, but I do agree he talks too damn much... If something is wrong, address it behind closed doors... This team/organization has too many crap to deal with as it is...

I hope we start over clean next year and get some unknown college coach or something... We really need to clean up this mess and completely start over...

[verbal8]

Saunders talks too much! He should know better than to go to the media about this. With all the mess that's going on with this franchise, this is the last thing they need to add to the list. I have to agree with the postee, who said Saunders wants out. Good riddance, get him outta here! I wish the Pollins would hurry and sale this team to Leonsis. Things that must be addressed during the offseason;

New Coach
Change the name of the team
Change everything about this team that is cursed.

+1

I'm far from a Flip basher, but I do agree he talks too damn much... If something is wrong, address it behind closed doors... This team/organization has too many crap to deal with as it is...

I hope we start over clean next year and get some unknown college coach or something... We really need to clean up this mess and completely start over...

The Wizards may be a decent situation for a college coach, since most of the team will be young guys who need to develop.

[Pradamaster]

Yes, I do not have any idea what precisely occurred CCJ, but I'm not providing anyone with a pass when the entire roster and coaching staff has conspired to produce some truly abominable basketball over the course of the year. I'm certainly not toasting Flip for the histrionics on his part that have characterized this season. I don't care how frustrating it's been for him to have to helm our trash barge (extremely I'm sure) and I don't loose sleep at night as I imagine he might over what this year is doing to his reputation and his ability to find another job should he part ways with this one. I'm even very fond of Andray, insofar as a fan can be fond of a player without knowing him and while he's part of a dirty dozen tasked with the desperate mission to attempt to convince that fan to never want to watch basketball again. That's why I'm coming down on Andray here, because I care about Andray and I want to see the guy accomplish something in a Wizards uniform.

And you know what, maybe Andray is in the relative right here. Maybe he had no intention whatsoever to do anything but everything he could to follow Flip's instructions and is genuinely mystified by Flip's indignation. Maybe he wanted to get in that game and be a part of that loss yesterday and it hurt him that Flip did not share that desire. Maybe five hundred years from now when we build an all-knowing all-powerful supercomputer to reveal to us the mysteries of the universe it will inform us that the biggest son of a bitch in the history of creation was Flip Saunders on the night of Tuesday, March 23, 2010. I must reiterate, I don't give a **** about Flip Saunders. As far as I'm concerned at the end of the year we can see him off with a firm handshake and a tattoo of the team's record across the forehead and that'd be swell. But I do care about Andray, and I want him to be a good player, and he's closer than he's ever been, closer than I expected he'd be when the Wizards traded Antawn Jamison.

And what I'm seeing right now is from Andray is bush league as hell. Flip should not have come crying to the media with his various woes but again, if I were Flip Saunders secret Santa I'd be chewing ten **** bucks worth of gum when I looked the man in the eyes and told him I didn't have the cash to buy a gift; you get the idea. Andray could have stepped up and earned some respect, which is apparently a pretty big deal for him, and kept it in house, talked with Flip, worked things out, been the professional. Instead we're running play-by-play for a dick waving contest. Yeah, I'm sure it rankled Andray's pride to have to hear Flip kvetching about him to anyone who'd listen, but there ain't no escalator to the high road. I will certainly say that from what has been attributed to Andray he comes off better here than Flip, but that's not the better I want when I want better from Blatche. If Andray is tired of dealing with Flip I want him to be the bigger man until Flip's so small he disappears. I don't want to hear about what fraction of the problem Andray thinks he's responsible for, that's a number that's going to get bigger every time Andray mentions it.

Just to reiterate, this is right on point. Well said.

The bottom line is that, in the NBA (and hell, in every professional sport), your coach simply has the capacity to bitch about you to the press that you don't have the other way. It's not fair, but it's how it is. That's something Blatche should realize now that he's been in the league for all these years. Make no mistake about it: the reason this story continues to fester (and hell, the reason guys like Woj keep writing about it) is because Blatche didn't take responsibility for his mistake right off the bat, even if said mistake was probably blown up.

And of course Flip comes across poorly, but like Ed said, who cares?

[dandridge 10]

Bad things happen on the way to a franchise record losing streak. But Flip really does look bad by the sheer fact that - if he didn't suspend Blatche, what was Flip talking about. He must have mis-read the situation. So now he should at least give the public an update. At least say - it was a misunderstanding. By playing him, it makes Flip look awfully foolish and seems to exonerate Dray.

After reading all the reports, my take on this is as follows:

Flip took Blatche out of the game because of not getting back on defense. As Blatche is coming out, Flip tries to talk to him and Blatche blows him off. Flip tells Blatche that if he isn't going to talk to him, he is not playing. Two assistants talk to Blatche during the first half/halftime, and Blatche thinks the matter is over with and assumes all will be forgotten when the second half starts. However, he never talks to Flip. Flip gets madder by the minute because Blatche never does talk to him and his team is losing once again. Blatche ends up not playing because he never talked to the coach, the team loses their 12th in a row, and Flip boils over after the game is over. EG then sits both Flip and Blatche down and concludes this was all miscommunication and basically tells them to get over it and move on. Blatche is still mad because Flip made it sound like Blatche explicitly said he did not want to play. Flip is still mad because he told Blatche he wasn't going to play unless Blatche talked to him and Blatche showed his indifference to playing by not talking to him. Flip starts Blatche last night only because his boss told him to move on.

So, IF this is what transpired, who do I think was wrong? Both to a certain degree, but mostly Blatche.

First, I completely agree with the majority of the posters that Flip should have handled this internally. He let his emotions get the best of him, and after being in the league as long as he has, he should know better than that. I think Flip was completely in the right in not playing Blatche the rest of the Charlotte game and would have been also right in suspending Blatche for a game or two for insubordination. However, he should have dealt with the situation in house.

However, I still place most of the blame on Blatche. First, he is the one that disrespected his coach by blowing him off during the game. Second, if Flip did indeed tell Blatche that he wasn't going to play unless he talked to him, and Blatche did not make an effort to talk to Flip or apologize, then I would take that as a sign that he didn't care about playing. If he really wanted to get back in the game, he would have talked to Flip. Blatche said on 106.7 yesterday said that he heard Flip at halftime say that there was a player who didn't want to play. Blatche had to know Flip was talking about him. Having heard that, Blatche should have at least went up to Flip and say that he wanted to play and that he was sorry for blowing Flip off. While Blatche may have not explicitly said that he did not want to play, his silence was certainly an indication that he didn't care if he played or not and I can understand why Flip was mad (although again, he should have handled it in house).

If my assumption of the facts is true, I am also disappointed if EG is the one that was responsible for starting Blatche last night. I think that sends the wrong message. Even if Flip did not handle the matter right for going public, the fact of the matter is that Blatche's actions were insubordinate and wrong. By starting him last night, it again looks like the inmates are running the prison.

[Pradamaster]

And hell, to those who say "Well, he should have addressed it behind closed doors..."

My question is, how? The fact that Dray was not playing was in plain view to every single reporter in the building. There's no way Dray can say he was ready to go back in - check the pictures (http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/03/the ... nched.html), he was plainly not of the team. There is no way - NO WAY - Flip could have not addressed what happened. It was in plain view for every reporter to see.

Now, does that means Flip addressed it in the right way? Of course not. The whole "worst thing in 15 years of coaching" and the whole thing about how pissed off he is at Dray was out of line. It's also par for the course for him recently, in that he's used the press to vent about why he hates this team. (Sidenote: I was talking to another reporter who said he didn't expect Flip to go in detail about what happened. I was like 'I'm pretty sure he'll tell us everything.'). That probably wasn't cool. So I'm not here defending how Flip handled it.

But still, there's no way Flip could have said nothing. There's also no way he could have simply said "I don't comment on that." That would have raised far more questions than answers about what happened, and people would have still written about it.

And again, at the end of the day, a coach simply has more leeway to bitch about a player than vice versa, just like a father has more of a capacity to scold his kid than vice versa. And yes, this is true even in the NBA.

[jimij]

Dandridge - for the most part I agree with the summary regarding how it went down with one slight difference. Blatche has admitted that when he came off the court he had no idea what Saunders said because he was too mad and he just went and sat on the bench. Thus he never knew Saunders wanted him to talk to him to let him back in.

He probably should have figured it out at halftime based on what Flip said, but maybe talking to Banks at halftime was his idea of communicating with the coaches (especially if spoke to him after Flips told the players that one of them didn't want to play).

I've definitely got no problem with the coach sitting Blatche for ignoring him but I still think Flip is the one responsible for blowing this completely out of proportion. Players understand disagreements and can live with the consequences, but accusations that you "quit on your teammates" are perceived as far more damaging and so I can understand why Blatche was upset the day after.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Flip said he has never been more disappointed in a player in 15 years of coaching. This is a guy who coached Stephon Marbury, Rasheed Wallace and Latrell Spreewell. Flip is the one who blew this out of proportion. This a recipe for disaster. Knucklehead players with a hot headed coach who has absolutely zero communication skills.

[dandridge 10]

And hell, to those who say "Well, he should have addressed it behind closed doors..."

My question is, how? The fact that Dray was not playing was in plain view to every single reporter in the building. There's no way Dray can say he was ready to go back in - check the pictures (http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/03/the ... nched.html), he was plainly not of the team. There is no way - NO WAY - Flip could have not addressed what happened. It was in plain view for every reporter to see.

Now, does that means Flip addressed it in the right way? Of course not. The whole "worst thing in 15 years of coaching" and the whole thing about how pissed off he is at Dray was out of line. It's also par for the course for him recently, in that he's used the press to vent about why he hates this team. (Sidenote: I was talking to another reporter who said he didn't expect Flip to go in detail about what happened. I was like 'I'm pretty sure he'll tell us everything.'). That probably wasn't cool. So I'm not here defending how Flip handled it.

But still, there's no way Flip could have said nothing. There's also no way he could have simply said "I don't comment on that." That would have raised far more questions than answers about what happened, and people would have still written about it.

And again, at the end of the day, a coach simply has more leeway to bitch about a player than vice versa, just like a father has more of a capacity to scold his kid than vice versa. And yes, this is true even in the NBA.

I don't necessarily disagree with you Prad. When I said handle the situation "in house", I was not implying that Flip say "no comment". I just meant that all Flip had to do is say "Blatche did not play for insubordination" and then handle the rest in house. He did not have to air the dirty laundry for everyone to see. When Blatche was suspended earlier in the season, they gave a brief explanation and did not go into the details. Flip should have done likewise here.

[Pradamaster]

And hell, to those who say "Well, he should have addressed it behind closed doors..."

My question is, how? The fact that Dray was not playing was in plain view to every single reporter in the building. There's no way Dray can say he was ready to go back in - check the pictures (http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/03/the ... nched.html), he was plainly not of the team. There is no way - NO WAY - Flip could have not addressed what happened. It was in plain view for every reporter to see.

Now, does that means Flip addressed it in the right way? Of course not. The whole "worst thing in 15 years of coaching" and the whole thing about how pissed off he is at Dray was out of line. It's also par for the course for him recently, in that he's used the press to vent about why he hates this team. (Sidenote: I was talking to another reporter who said he didn't expect Flip to go in detail about what happened. I was like 'I'm pretty sure he'll tell us everything.'). That probably wasn't cool. So I'm not here defending how Flip handled it.

But still, there's no way Flip could have said nothing. There's also no way he could have simply said "I don't comment on that." That would have raised far more questions than answers about what happened, and people would have still written about it.

And again, at the end of the day, a coach simply has more leeway to bitch about a player than vice versa, just like a father has more of a capacity to scold his kid than vice versa. And yes, this is true even in the NBA.

I don't necessarily disagree with you Prad. When I said handle the situation "in house", I was not implying that Flip say "no comment". I just meant that all Flip had to do is say "Blatche did not play for insubordination" and then handle the rest in house. He did not have to air the dirty laundry for everyone to see. When Blatche was suspended earlier in the season, they gave a brief explanation and did not go into the details. Flip should have done likewise here.

Yeah, that makes the most sense. If I were Flip, I would have said something like "He made a mistake on the court and was insubordinate after we tried to tell him about it, so we decided to sit him out the rest of the game. I'm not sure yet whether he's going to play tomorrow. That's all I'm going to say about that."

[dandridge 10]

Dandridge - for the most part I agree with the summary regarding how it went down with one slight difference. Blatche has admitted that when he came off the court he had no idea what Saunders said because he was too mad and he just went and sat on the bench. Thus he never knew Saunders wanted him to talk to him to let him back in.

He probably should have figured it out at halftime based on what Flip said, but maybe talking to Banks at halftime was his idea of communicating with the coaches (especially if spoke to him after Flips told the players that one of them didn't want to play).

I've definitely got no problem with the coach sitting Blatche for ignoring him but I still think Flip is the one responsible for blowing this completely out of proportion. Players understand disagreements and can live with the consequences, but accusations that you "quit on your teammates" are perceived as far more damaging and so I can understand why Blatche was upset the day after.

Maybe you are right and Blatche did not hear Flip say he would have to talk to him before he played. However, by the end of the 3rd quarter, I would think a light bulb would have went on and Blatche would have at least asked an assistant coach what the heck was going on. Instead, Blatche just sat at the end of the bench, not looking at least one bit concerned that he was not playing. If I was the coach, and I believed I made it clear that a player was not getting back in unless he listened to what I had to say, I would be madder than hell that the player would just sit at the end of the bench and look perfectly content not to be playing. Again, I do not agree with how Flip handled the situation publicly. However, just as some people can understand why Blatche was mad, I can certainly understand why Flip was hot too.

[cdouglas]

I'll be SURPRISED if Saunders return. This team is giving him a headache!! At this point I'm not sure if there's any coach that would want to coach the Wizs. Maybe Ewing or Kareem would like to coach.

[cdouglas]

Dandridge - for the most part I agree with the summary regarding how it went down with one slight difference. Blatche has admitted that when he came off the court he had no idea what Saunders said because he was too mad and he just went and sat on the bench. Thus he never knew Saunders wanted him to talk to him to let him back in.

He probably should have figured it out at halftime based on what Flip said, but maybe talking to Banks at halftime was his idea of communicating with the coaches (especially if spoke to him after Flips told the players that one of them didn't want to play).

I've definitely got no problem with the coach sitting Blatche for ignoring him but I still think Flip is the one responsible for blowing this completely out of proportion. Players understand disagreements and can live with the consequences, but accusations that you "quit on your teammates" are perceived as far more damaging and so I can understand why Blatche was upset the day after.

Maybe you are right and Blatche did not hear Flip say he would have to talk to him before he played. However, by the end of the 3rd quarter, I would think a light bulb would have went on and Blatche would have at least asked an assistant coach what the heck was going on. Instead, Blatche just sat at the end of the bench, not looking at least one bit concerned that he was not playing. If I was the coach, and I believed I made it clear that a player was not getting back in unless he listened to what I had to say, I would be madder than hell that the player would just sit at the end of the bench and look perfectly content not to be playing. Again, I do not agree with how Flip handled the situation publicly. However, just as some people can understand why Blatche was mad, I can certainly understand why Flip was hot too.

Maybe Fllip doesn't want Blatche to be elected the MIP. If this is true, he's doing a good job! Also, he's ruining our chances of picking up good players during the offseason.

[closg00]

Excellent point cdouglas, what must FA's be thinking about a coach who publically throws his players under the bus?

[keynote]

Y! Sports' Wojo reminds us that Flip has shown a lack of spine in the past:

Saunders did suspend Blatche earlier this season for a game, but he desperately needed to do it again. For the kid’s sake, the franchise’s, the fans’ – everyone. Only, Wizards general manager Ernie Grunfeld let Saunders make the decision and this franchise has been humiliated again. For Saunders to call it unlike anything he had ever seen in 15 years is sure saying something considering the insurrections that arose under his watch with the Detroit Pistons.

The worst ever? Well, the Pistons players tell the story of Rasheed Wallace(notes) calling Saunders the “worst [bleeping] coward I’ve ever seen” after a loss in the 2008 Eastern Conference playoffs. Everyone was there. Everyone heard it. And nothing. Saunders took it, and watched his credibility and command of that team die a little more.

Now, I'm not on Team Andray or on Team Flip. But I do find it troubling that Flip's reputation for lacking the ability/cojones to instill an atmosphere of discipline is cropping up again. Flip should've handled it better initially, to be sure; but allowing Andray to play after talking so much stuff in the media sends a bad signal to everyone involved - especially Blatche.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Maybe he has given up on this squad keynote? I see no reason why Flip would want to come back next year. This team is not a contender by any means. We'll be lucky to be a sixth seed next year in the East. Why would an accomplished coach like Flip work on a rebuilding team when he has nothing to gain out of it?

[ErikChowbay023]

Look Flip said he and Andray talked and its over with.... Why are we still talking about it ?

[keynote]

^
Because the repercussions linger on. Because it's still worthwhile (as worthwhile as any message board post is, anyway) to discuss Flip's managerial style, or to assess whether Blatche is worthy of being a part of this team's future going forward. Because, as someone else stated in this thread, fans are concerned about the impact this fracas may have had on our team's reputation amongst potential FAs and the like.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Yes, I do not have any idea what precisely occurred CCJ, but I'm not providing anyone with a pass when the entire roster and coaching staff has conspired to produce some truly abominable basketball over the course of the year. I'm certainly not toasting Flip for the histrionics on his part that have characterized this season. I don't care how frustrating it's been for him to have to helm our trash barge (extremely I'm sure) and I don't loose sleep at night as I imagine he might over what this year is doing to his reputation and his ability to find another job should he part ways with this one. I'm even very fond of Andray, insofar as a fan can be fond of a player without knowing him and while he's part of a dirty dozen tasked with the desperate mission to attempt to convince that fan to never want to watch basketball again. That's why I'm coming down on Andray here, because I care about Andray and I want to see the guy accomplish something in a Wizards uniform.

And you know what, maybe Andray is in the relative right here. Maybe he had no intention whatsoever to do anything but everything he could to follow Flip's instructions and is genuinely mystified by Flip's indignation. Maybe he wanted to get in that game and be a part of that loss yesterday and it hurt him that Flip did not share that desire. Maybe five hundred years from now when we build an all-knowing all-powerful supercomputer to reveal to us the mysteries of the universe it will inform us that the biggest son of a bitch in the history of creation was Flip Saunders on the night of Tuesday, March 23, 2010. I must reiterate, I don't give a **** about Flip Saunders. As far as I'm concerned at the end of the year we can see him off with a firm handshake and a tattoo of the team's record across the forehead and that'd be swell. But I do care about Andray, and I want him to be a good player, and he's closer than he's ever been, closer than I expected he'd be when the Wizards traded Antawn Jamison.

And what I'm seeing right now is from Andray is bush league as hell. Flip should not have come crying to the media with his various woes but again, if I were Flip Saunders secret Santa I'd be chewing ten **** bucks worth of gum when I looked the man in the eyes and told him I didn't have the cash to buy a gift; you get the idea. Andray could have stepped up and earned some respect, which is apparently a pretty big deal for him, and kept it in house, talked with Flip, worked things out, been the professional. Instead we're running play-by-play for a dick waving contest. Yeah, I'm sure it rankled Andray's pride to have to hear Flip kvetching about him to anyone who'd listen, but there ain't no escalator to the high road. I will certainly say that from what has been attributed to Andray he comes off better here than Flip, but that's not the better I want when I want better from Blatche. If Andray is tired of dealing with Flip I want him to be the bigger man until Flip's so small he disappears. I don't want to hear about what fraction of the problem Andray thinks he's responsible for, that's a number that's going to get bigger every time Andray mentions it.

I read your prose and am not as impressed as others. Great on style points. Low on substance.

When someone maligns your character publicly it could be called defamation. If a coach, and a losing one at that does it, you don't earn respect as a professional by keeping quiet. Why should Andray be the bigger man?

Honestly, I don't care any more for Blatche than Saunders. I don't care if either is affiliated with the Wizards or another team. On principle, I'd like both to prosper professionally and for the team to win. Subjectively, I'd like the coach to be the bigger man since he's closer to my age and I would think would know better.

If you don't want to hear Andray admit to feeling partially responsible I think you tacitly approve of Flip not taking any responsibility. You want Andray to be the Martin Luther King or the Gandhi or the Jackie Robinson. Fine.

Personally, I want Flip to be held accountable for the terrible job he's done this season.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Why does everyone act like Coaches are cool? I hated some of my Coaches in HS and I wish I could tell them to get the hell out my face. Sometimes, the players dont like the coach and its genuine. Its not that the player is bad. We may start to hear that all the players have a problem with him, just like they started to do in Detroit. I heard him & Billups use to fight about stuff alot

It really doesn't matter if you like your coaches or not. All that matters is you respect them as authority figures and follow their instructions.

I have been back and forth on Flip. Some good stuff and some bad stuff from Flip. Better then EFJ. But this is the same guy who left Miller out on the court with a injured shoulder only to see him injure it even worse.

Dray had an injured ankle. He had been playing really well before that. Balls out. Best player since the break. Flip wanted him back on D ? Cut the kid some slack already. How do you screw that up in a blink of an eye. And Flip, get off KGs nuts. I'm sick of him rubbing KG in Drays face publicly. How about building the kid up an little and giving him some props for how well he has been playing and the good work he put in last summer ?

I'm not one to see things in black and white. Sometimes saying stuff to the press can be useful but doing it to much is not. A coach like Gibbs one almost never would say anything publicly. All you would get was.. to many turnover..we didn't fight hard enough..maybe a compliment to a player who stood out in a positive way..and blame the rest on his own coaching and all of it one TEAM. Gibbs would yank a player from the game if he fumbled but a football team a little different. Lots more players and lots less cameras in their faces. We barely have enough to field a team. And it would take a ton for Gibbs to change out his QB. He would have his back forever.

I think Flip is way out of line. Post game comments should have been more like. Dray's ankle is still bothering him so he wasn't able to play at the speed we needed him to so we decided to let him rest another game. Full truth or not, he would have bought time to work it out with Dray behind the seen, not out in public. He would have time to think about his side. Maybe he was wrong. If not and Dray was, you give the kid some cover to figure that out on his own and maybe grow.

Doing what Flip did publicly is a loose loose. Dray is put in a corner and looks like a jerk regardless of the true story. Remember how this played out with Haywood and EJ. Well, EJ was the idiot, not Haywood. And doing it like this, Flip looks like a jerk and alienates his players. ie. Detroit. And dragging KGs name out and rubbing Dray's face in it is totally unprofessional. There in lies the irony. Flip is publicly pointing out how unprofessional Dray was by be unprofessional himself.

Flip, let me introduce you to a little thing called a mirror. You might want to spend a little time in front of it once in a while. If Flip wants to be an NBA coach again, I don't think he is doing himself any favors. Det.. Now This. Twitch needs to chill on the public bashing crap.

That's a HOF post.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Saunders talks too much! He should know better than to go to the media about this. With all the mess that's going on with this franchise, this is the last thing they need to add to the list. I have to agree with the postee, who said Saunders wants out. Good riddance, get him outta here! I wish the Pollins would hurry and sale this team to Leonsis. Things that must be addressed during the offseason;

New Coach
Change the name of the team
Change everything about this team that is cursed.

+1