Wiz Acquire Hinrich, Seraphin, $3M for Veermenko's rights

[Dat2U]

The main thing is teams with an owner who says "we're at the very start of rebuilding" rarely keep huge contracts on the books.

On the "it's winning time!" meter, the Wizards are about at a 1 or a 2 and Gil is a win-now player. Anyone else you could consider to be a core player is in an entirely different age bracket.

The other clubs that would be going after Gil would be teams with a "Winning time" rating of 9 or, more likely, 10. That's a discrepancy and Ted's all about them cycles.

I expect that Ted want's the club to bottom out record wise with a wide open salary structure. None of that means "Gil has to go" or "darn that guy", but that's the pattern that the NBA has shown over the years and particularly by a team such as OKC.

OKC did a lot as far as acquiring draft picks, but they also slashed the bejeebus out of their salary.

I'm just saying that's the direction I expect they decide go and it's in no small part based on assorted rumors (such as the Orlando rumors and then Ric Bucher on draft night). It doesn't have anything to do with hate.

The biggest difference b/w the OKC strategy & our so-called strategy is the OKC got value in the deals they made. They got the 5th pick in the draft for Ray Allen. They acquire picks for far less than $17 mil and they don't spend ANY money in free agency (w/ the exception of a modest deal for Nenad Krstic).

[Kanyewest]

^^^ Ray Allen was/is a really good player. You have to say the Celtics got really good value from that deal considering they made it to the finals twice in three years, and convinced KG to allow the Celtics to trade for him. Wizards were not going to get that kind of value from Jamison, Butler, or Arenas.

And yeah, it's $14 million or less, either if Chicago gave $3 million or $6 million. Of course, the problem is if a team is really willing to give expiring for Kirk Hinrich. I would strongly consider that offer of Shannon Brown and Vujacic if it's on the table.

[Dat2U]

^

What they're saying is that having Gil makes us a middle of the road team where you pick up a guy like Seraphin in the draft and dont do anything in free agency. If we're not going to win, some people here would rather see us just lose like hell and get a prospect like John Wall in the draft, and leave our options open to add free agents who fit through free agency.

Hinrich 1) is a more tradeable player and 2) is a less-good player than Arenas so he doesnt really get in the way of either of those goals.

I'm with you though. If they trade Arenas this offseason or even towards the deadline, I'd be pissed. We've been waiting for the guy to get back for three years now, and now that he's healthy and we have one of the more exciting squads we've had this decade, you wanna trade Arenas? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!

Dumping Gil & replacing him with Hinrich is tanking at its best. Even if we find a capable starting C, we won't have the shot-making ability to win alot of games.

I'm just not sure tanking is the right option. I don't see us pulling a NJ or Minnesota and winning 15 to 20 games next year. Even with a Wall/Hinrich backcourt I think were still capable of winning 25-30 games. And I'm not sure there's value in tanking for the 8th or 9th pick in the draft.

I thought we were in a neat position to come out the gates and be pretty competitive next season. Wall, Arenas, Blatche, $21 mil in cap space. I think we get more out of the rebuilding process by giving our young guys a chance to taste competitive basketball from the start and quickly change the perception of the Wizards being a sadsack franchise.

[dangermouse]

Let's not buy into some revisionist history. OKC did indeed slash salary and gut their team while in Seattle but that was more about getting out of Seattle than about improving the team in the long run.

As long as we're talking about following the "OKC model" put me down as firmly against it. The idea of gutting the team and destroying a fanbase in order to move the team out west does not appeal to me.

[Kanyewest]

The main thing is teams with an owner who says "we're at the very start of rebuilding" rarely keep huge contracts on the books.

On the "it's winning time!" meter, the Wizards are about at a 1 or a 2 and Gil is a win-now player. Anyone else you could consider to be a core player is in an entirely different age bracket.

I think the media has really hurt Arenas's perceived value. I could see Arenas helping a number of team's but he is known nationally as a cancer and malcontent; the gun incident has been viewed badly by the nation even though while Arenas action's were stupid, they were not that bad IMO and his crimes have been grossly exaggerated. He's also has had injury problems and has 4 years on his contract.

People also undervalue Arenas on the court simply because the Wizards were losing; while people forget that the entire Wiz's core was transitioning to Flip's offense. He averaged 23 ppg and 7 apg and he was playing with a lot of rust; I think the best of Arenas was still to come at some point after the all star break. Hopefully. Arenas puts together a producitive season, people will forget about both the gun incident and injury woes and I could see the Wizards wanting to keep him. Arenas is still young enough that the Wiz can attempt to build around him and Wall in the short term. I think Arenas complements Wall's weaknesses much like how Gordon complemented someone like Derrick Rose.

[Hoopalotta]

Let's not buy into some revisionist history. OKC did indeed slash salary and gut their team while in Seattle but that was more about getting out of Seattle than about improving the team in the long run.

As long as we're talking about following the "OKC model" put me down as firmly against it. The idea of gutting the team and destroying a fanbase in order to move the team out west does not appeal to me.

Sorry, but that ain't much of an argument. Ted has made it very clear from the start by entwining his "transparency" proclamation with "up and down cycles" as far as competitiveness that he believes he has the credibility to the point where he can tear it down and still be trusted as doing what's best for the club.

If another team doesn't feel they can sell it to their fanbase without moving the team, what does that have to do with anything? Ted has said very directly that he wants to model things after OKC.

And uh, oh yeah, not a hockey guy, but didn't he already do this with the Capitols back when Gary Payton was playing in Seattle? If not Payton, then at least Antonio Daniels?

I don't see how anyone can honestly argue against there being some hints in this direction here. If you don't like it, think of me as UPS delivering a turd in a brown box. If you don't like it, blame the guy who sent the turd, not UPS.

[Hoopalotta]

I think the media has really hurt Arenas's perceived value. I could see Arenas helping a number of team's but he is known nationally as a cancer and malcontent; the gun incident has been viewed badly by the nation even though while Arenas action's were stupid, they were not that bad IMO and his crimes have been grossly exaggerated. He's also has had injury problems and has 4 years on his contract.

People also undervalue Arenas on the court simply because the Wizards were losing; while people forget that the entire Wiz's core was transitioning to Flip's offense. He averaged 23 ppg and 7 apg and he was playing with a lot of rust; I think the best of Arenas was still to come at some point after the all star break. Hopefully. Arenas puts together a producitive season, people will forget about both the gun incident and injury woes and I could see the Wizards wanting to keep him. Arenas is still young enough that the Wiz can attempt to build around him and Wall in the short term. I think Arenas complements Wall's weaknesses much like how Gordon complemented someone like Derrick Rose.

I agree with the analysis of what happened and the possibilities of what could happen if we kept Gil.

What I'm really laying out is what I expect will happen. I mean, it sounds like we offered Gil to Orlando for Vince Carter before the draft and Bucher reports that there are some teams interested.

And pairing Gil and Hinrich goes pretty counter to my understanding of what Leonsis would like to do with fiscal flexibility.

Seems like a trend, no?

[willbcocks]

Dat: I would have agreed with you if the top tier free agents were willing to come here and help us use the 21 million. But clearly they are not. I know you wouldnt want us to sign lower tier free agents either, so the cap space really doesnt give us more wins.

I also see this team doing worse than you, especially if, as I hope, we dump gil for Eddie Curry. We will have zero continuity so will start the year off with a lot of losses. We have no starting caliber C or SF. We have no interior defense and a lot of roookie defense. We won't even be able to shoot the ball. I'm guessing 20-25 wins, unless Wall plays out of his mind.

The results will probably depend on how FA pans out--will **** teams get good free agents, leaving the league with a lot of mediocre teams? In that case, we'll finish with a 1-8 pick IMO.

Krisko: I want Kirk to lead the tank brigade, not the 8th seed charge. Gil would be better leading the 8th seed charge, but I think playing hard, but losing a lot of games, would be better for our future.

[willbcocks]

The main thing is teams with an owner who says "we're at the very start of rebuilding" rarely keep huge contracts on the books.

On the "it's winning time!" meter, the Wizards are about at a 1 or a 2 and Gil is a win-now player. Anyone else you could consider to be a core player is in an entirely different age bracket.

The other clubs that would be going after Gil would be teams with a "Winning time" rating of 9 or, more likely, 10. That's a discrepancy and Ted's all about them cycles.

I expect that Ted want's the club to bottom out record wise with a wide open salary structure. None of that means "Gil has to go" or "darn that guy", but that's the pattern that the NBA has shown over the years and particularly by a team such as OKC.

OKC did a lot as far as acquiring draft picks, but they also slashed the bejeebus out of their salary.

I'm just saying that's the direction I expect they decide go and it's in no small part based on assorted rumors (such as the Orlando rumors and then Ric Bucher on draft night). It doesn't have anything to do with hate.

The biggest difference b/w the OKC strategy & our so-called strategy is the OKC got value in the deals they made. They got the 5th pick in the draft for Ray Allen. They acquire picks for far less than $17 mil and they don't spend ANY money in free agency (w/ the exception of a modest deal for Nenad Krstic).

Didn't that 5th pick turn into the very average Jeff green? Harden at #3? And all the value they just created turn into Cole Aldritch? The strategy requires a lot of luck and is hardfor almost any GM.

[Hoopalotta]

^ yeah, all their franchise guys they picked up with their own draft picks (Durant and Westbrook). And they didn't do so well with a pair of high picks as mentioned (they coulda' had Noah, right?). The best thing they've probably done is as Dat mentioned: maintain discipline by not bringing on high priced vets.

Dunno yet. Can't hate on the Hiney deal as it depends on how much cash they got and what the plans are for the rest of the summer. It could certainly turn out being rational with a few moves as I well like him as tank commander demanding a certain accountability and structure. We might have a sig there with Dukakis in the Abrams getting photoshopped.

Well actually, moves and a few non-moves, like NOT getting Josh Childress.

[dangermouse]

Being a little harsh on Jeff Green. They brought him in to be their jack of all trades glue guy. They just arsed up in that he plays the same position as their star that they picked 3 spots up. He was fine, if a little inconsistant in his first year where he was played almost exclusively at SF. Just how much did moving him to PF effect his development? Hes more athletic than he looks, I think he has potential (on another team, in his natural position). I wouldnt overpay for him though. I see him as becoming something like a bigger Josh Howard with better D.

[Hoopalotta]

^ there were actually a lot of bust picks right after Jeff Green; bit of a minefield really.

6. Yi
7. Corey Brewer
8. Brandon Wright

Not until you get to Noah at 9 do you have a "doh!" moment.

[closg00]

Per the earlier discussion, it was Andrew Sharp who wrote the SBNation article, not Mike Prada.
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/6/25/15372 ... ld-wizards

[WizStorm]

Personally, I think it's an absolutely terrible idea to purposely try and field the worst team you can around John Wall. Don't you want to groom the kid a pure point guard? How the hell are you going to do that by filling the team with lousy or inexperienced players and thereby forcing him to try and take games over by himself? No matter how much you'd want to field a team that will tank, John Wall ain't going to want any part of that as he's got endorsement deals and image that he's trying to build that would take a huge hit if the team is among the league's worst yet again.

I believe that keeping Gil would allow Wall to shine as defenses wouldn't be able to key on stopping just one guard and cold really open up the floor for him. At the same time and for the same reason, Gil would be able to build back his reputation as a premier player and a great teammate. Maybe then, when Gil's value isn't at rock bottom as nothing more than salary dump, you guys who want him gone so badly might get your wish and we can get some young quality players or picks in return.

[nate33]

I think Gil is an older player who will be on the decline when it's time for the rest of the team to compete. His salary is also an impediment to adding other talent. For that reason, I think it's best that we trade him.

That said, I also agree with the notion that Gil's trading value is artificially suppressed right now. If he can get the opportunity to play for a while, I think he'll regain some of his value. For that reason, I wouldn't mind a bit to see him on the roster on opening day. The best case scenario would be to do what Seattle did with Ray Allen and trade Arenas for expirings plus a fairly high pick.

And if, while showcasing Arenas, we find out that he and Wall have excellent chemistry and win a lot of ball games, then I'm open-minded to keeping Arenas as well. I'm pretty skeptical that it'll happen because I think defense will be a problem, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. If that situation arises, I would like to see Hinrich traded for expirings at the Trade Deadline.

[AceDegenerate]

Derrick Rose took his team to the Playoffs in his 1st Season in Chicago. This is the guy Wall is most compared to, and if he is supposedly better why wouldn't he put the Wizards in the Playoffs next year?

If you really want to follow the OKC model, the Wizards should be able to acquire Top 10 picks without actually being in the lottery.

The team has sacrificed enough talent/assets for cap space/nothing. Arenas should not be traded for any deal that makes the team worse, it's that simple.

[Hoopalotta]

If you really want to follow the OKC model, the Wizards should be able to acquire Top 10 picks without actually being in the lottery.

That's probably the best argument for not tanking right there, especially considering the next draft isn't likely to be too hot anyway. It's highly unlikely that even our best tank attack would net a franchise type talent.

I'm certainly not going to sit here and say that there isn't a rational argument for keeping Gil. My view is the best case with keeping Gil would be to nab an impact defensive bigman as that balances the roster pretty well.

[willbcocks]

Derrick Rose took his team to the Playoffs in his 1st Season in Chicago. This is the guy Wall is most compared to, and if he is supposedly better why wouldn't he put the Wizards in the Playoffs next year?

Rose had better players around him. Minus Gil, we would have 2 starting quality NBA players, Wall, a rookie, and Blatche coming off an injury. Not only that, we would have little quality depth, unless you count depth at potential.

Also, if free agency pans out as I expect, there will be fewer bad teams this year and a lot more middling teams this year.

[NbdyBeatsTheWiz]

I'm just not sure tanking is the right option. I don't see us pulling a NJ or Minnesota and winning 15 to 20 games next year. Even with a Wall/Hinrich backcourt I think were still capable of winning 25-30 games. And I'm not sure there's value in tanking for the 8th or 9th pick in the draft.

There certainly isn't. This draft only had one true franchise player and we lucked into him. Cousins and Turner IMO are two other great prospects, but tanking and then seeing where we end up in the lottery process seems like a terrible idea. We've sucked for decades and went back to the lottery well again and again with no results. Count me squarely against the idea of actually planning to utilize it again.

[AceDegenerate]

Derrick Rose had who?

Ben Gordon? His team is in the lottery now.

Kirk Hinrich? Yeah he's Wall's teammate as well now.

Luol Deng? Was he even healthy? I know the Bulls would give him away for free too if they could.

Joakim Noah? Okay, but is he really that much better than Blatche?

I don't see how Derrick Rose had better players around him than John Wall will. I think with or without Arenas the team that will be put around him this season is going to be good enough to be an 8 seed in the East. There will be no more Top 5 picks in D.C. unless the Wizards Front Office finds a way to trade for one. John Wall is touted as a Winner and I don't see him standing for losing as much as some may be hoping for.