Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIV

[payitforward]

Zimmerman looks like a guy who belongs in the NBA, at the very least at the end of some team's 15 man roster. For the Wiz ,though, do they really need another center? I think the need at wing is greater.

If Mac counts as on the 15 man roster despite being injured (wch I assume is the case), then we can only add one other player -- either one of the non-guaranteed guys (Felix or Sloan) or someone else -- e.g. Zimmerman.

It's hard not to vote for Donald Sloan in that case: he had very good seasons in 2014-15 (on 1107 minutes) & 2015-16 (on 1318 minutes). Why was he out of the league last year? Injury? Better $$ in China??

If he re-establishes himself at that level, he'll be a tremendous bargain on his veteran minimum salary. Certainly, he's played at a higher level than Tim Frazier ever has (which is not to say that Frazier is terrible; he's not). & I can't see keeping Carrick over Sloan either.

At the same time, I lament our having so few young players with room to develop. & I think that a young big is actually a particularly critical need.

Ideally, I'd like to keep Sloan while eating Frazier's contract. Ditto signing Zimmerman & letting McCullough go. These things will not happen, however.

[gambitx777]

Well, I don't see the reason why we can't cut some guys on the one year deals? Like tim, or mac, and we let go of ochefu ? we need another big? Zimmerman would be perfect! hes pretty solid and we would get him for nothing.

[Sluggerface]

Well, I don't see the reason why we can't cut some guys on the one year deals? Like tim, or mac, and we let go of ochefu ? we need another big? Zimmerman would be perfect! hes pretty solid and we would get him for nothing.

Luxury tax payments.

[gambitx777]

Well, I don't see the reason why we can't cut some guys on the one year deals? Like tim, or mac, and we let go of ochefu ? we need another big? Zimmerman would be perfect! hes pretty solid and we would get him for nothing.

Luxury tax payments.

we are already in the tax dude. cutting the player and paying them the money or keeping them it don't make a difference. and honestly the cutting one dude, and adding 1 or 2 500000-1000000 contracts is really not that much of a hit to us. not only that but i highly doubt we finish the season with out trading smith/mahinmi or gortat. which will make up for that. Bro at this point eat the tax money we need some youn players up front zimmerman is a first round tallent.

[NatP4]

Well, I don't see the reason why we can't cut some guys on the one year deals? Like tim, or mac, and we let go of ochefu ? we need another big? Zimmerman would be perfect! hes pretty solid and we would get him for nothing.

agree with this. Wish they could cut Frazier and sign Zimmerman

[Sluggerface]

Well, I don't see the reason why we can't cut some guys on the one year deals? Like tim, or mac, and we let go of ochefu ? we need another big? Zimmerman would be perfect! hes pretty solid and we would get him for nothing.

Luxury tax payments.

we are already in the tax dude. cutting the player and paying them the money or keeping them it don't make a difference. and honestly the cutting one dude, and adding 1 or 2 500000-1000000 contracts is really not that much of a hit to us. not only that but i highly doubt we finish the season with out trading smith/mahinmi or gortat. which will make up for that. Bro at this point eat the tax money we need some youn players up front zimmerman is a first round tallent.

It's not as cut and dry as that when dealing with players with guaranteed salaries. It's the primary reason that Mac isn't getting cut. Cutting Mac would have cost the team an additional 1.2 million.

[gambitx777]

Luxury tax payments.

we are already in the tax dude. cutting the player and paying them the money or keeping them it don't make a difference. and honestly the cutting one dude, and adding 1 or 2 500000-1000000 contracts is really not that much of a hit to us. not only that but i highly doubt we finish the season with out trading smith/mahinmi or gortat. which will make up for that. Bro at this point eat the tax money we need some youn players up front zimmerman is a first round tallent.

It's not as cut and dry as that when dealing with players with guaranteed salaries. It's the primary reason that Mac isn't getting cut. Cutting Mac would have cost the team an additional 1.2 million.

I think you're getting confused. If we cut a dude on a garunteed contract, it doesn't coast more. You just pay him all that money. And when talking about 1-2 mill it's not a big issue. It won't effect the tax unless we sign someone else. I would cut both of them. Mac and Tim if they are not gonna be healthy just be done with it. You have Tomas and Meeks and Sloan. Keep Felix and pick up a guy like Zimmerman. And move on.

[Ruzious]

we are already in the tax dude. cutting the player and paying them the money or keeping them it don't make a difference. and honestly the cutting one dude, and adding 1 or 2 500000-1000000 contracts is really not that much of a hit to us. not only that but i highly doubt we finish the season with out trading smith/mahinmi or gortat. which will make up for that. Bro at this point eat the tax money we need some youn players up front zimmerman is a first round tallent.

It's not as cut and dry as that when dealing with players with guaranteed salaries. It's the primary reason that Mac isn't getting cut. Cutting Mac would have cost the team an additional 1.2 million.

I think you're getting confused. If we cut a dude on a garunteed contract, it doesn't coast more. You just pay him all that money. And when talking about 1-2 mill it's not a big issue. It won't effect the tax unless we sign someone else. I would cut both of them. Mac and Tim if they are not gonna be healthy just be done with it. You have Tomas and Meeks and Sloan. Keep Felix and pick up a guy like Zimmerman. And move on.

And I may have this screwed up, but my understanding on the lux tax calculation is that it's based only on the roster you have on the last day of the season. Maybe it actually helps to cut a player like McCullough making 1.5 mil and picking up a min salary guy like Zimmerman? And min salaries don't count against the regular cap, so there's no restriction there other than roster spots. Again, I could be completely wrong on the lux tax.

[gambitx777]

It's not as cut and dry as that when dealing with players with guaranteed salaries. It's the primary reason that Mac isn't getting cut. Cutting Mac would have cost the team an additional 1.2 million.

I think you're getting confused. If we cut a dude on a garunteed contract, it doesn't coast more. You just pay him all that money. And when talking about 1-2 mill it's not a big issue. It won't effect the tax unless we sign someone else. I would cut both of them. Mac and Tim if they are not gonna be healthy just be done with it. You have Tomas and Meeks and Sloan. Keep Felix and pick up a guy like Zimmerman. And move on.

And I may have this screwed up, but my understanding on the lux tax calculation is that it's based only on the roster you have on the last day of the season. Maybe it actually helps to cut a player like McCullough making 1.5 mil and picking up a min salary guy like Zimmerman? And min salaries don't count against the regular cap, so there's no restriction there other than roster spots. Again, I could be completely wrong on the lux tax.

You're not wrong, but ultimately you are still paying the money. Either in tax or to the player then another player and that contracts cap hit to the tax. its really a minimal impact though. It all boils down to ok, how much do we want a tittle. because any little tiny improvement could be something that makes or breaks us in the end.
Who can be cut, paid and not be too much of a bother to replace. right now we stand at 16 contracts and 2 D league deals.
Tim, Sloan, Scott, Mac, and felix are all on cheap 1 year deals.
So cut mac, memphis did this with chalmers a year or two ago when he blew his leg out when eh was on a one year deal, they jsut paid him and he went home.
that puts you at 15 contracts with felix, who has played well. and our two d league players, so Cut tim. bring in zimmerman and you have 15 dudes and a 21 year old center prospect.
You can cut scott, sloan or felix, bu felix is playing well and he can play the 2 or the 3 and after Kelley we don't have much there, sloan is a pretty solid back up point guard and who would you replace scott with? Terrance jones? Sullinger? christian wood, derrick williams?
So i would cut Tim, (silly considering we paid a second for him but thats water under the bridge at this point.) and Mac (pay the kid, let him heal and give him a chance when hes better.) Sign a guy like zimmerman and keep felix. Keep sloan and scott unless a better player comes around cheap.

[nate33]

I'm circling like a vulture over New Orleans. Their twin towers lineup with no guard play and no cap room is certain to end in disaster. The obvious play is to trade Otto Porter for Demarcus Cousins with Asik and one of our centers being swapped to make the salaries match. Bill Simmons and others on his podcast think the trade is likely, though they seem to think that Washington needs to include multiple 1st rounders, which is silly. Cousins' trade value, with just a few months left on an expiring contract, isn't that high.

The only problem is, I don't really want to trade Porter for Cousins.

So with that in mind, how about uniting John Wall and Cousins together... in New Orleans? New Orleans has got to be concerned that Anthony Davis wants to get out as soon as he can, and they really don't have any avenue to improve the team well enough to convince him to stay. How many first round picks would we need to add to trade John Wall for Anthony Davis plus bad contracts?

A core of Beal, Porter and Davis should contend for years. Each of them are just 24 years old! Also, we get out of Wall's gargantuan contract, which should make it a bit easier to build some depth around the core.

[payitforward]

Well, I don't see the reason why we can't cut some guys on the one year deals? Like tim, or mac, and we let go of ochefu ? we need another big? Zimmerman would be perfect! hes pretty solid and we would get him for nothing.

Luxury tax payments.

we are already in the tax dude. cutting the player and paying them the money or keeping them it don't make a difference. and honestly the cutting one dude, and adding 1 or 2 500000-1000000 contracts is really not that much of a hit to us. not only that but i highly doubt we finish the season with out trading smith/mahinmi or gortat. which will make up for that. Bro at this point eat the tax money we need some youn players up front zimmerman is a first round tallent.

We're in the tax already, yes, & that's kind of the point. If you cut player X, who has a $2m guaranteed contract, & replace him with player Y, whom you pay $1.5m, you are paying both players' salaries & $1.50 in tax per $1 of total salary over the tax level.

Practically speaking, what that means is that if you cut McCullough & sign Zimmerman for lets say $1m, you've raised your overall salary costs by $2m.

Unless of course, the new signing takes you past $5m in salary over the tax level. In that case, all your tax payments (not just the new guy) are now $1.75 per $1 over the limit. At that point, Zimmerman's $1m contract has cost you closer to $4m. At $10m over the tax level, per $ payments go up to $2.50. & continue to rise at intervals.

Hence "adding 1 or 2 500000-1000000 contracts is really not that much of a hit to us" is completely wrong, gamby. Two $10m contracts would cost the Wizards over $100m. The following year, as a repeat offender, those 2 contracts would cost us $120m.

Right now, we're at $125m for 14 players. Once we add a 15th player it'll be $126.5m. To trade Gortat & get back under the tax limit, we'd have to take back a player who makes only @$5.5m. That means our trading partner would have to be able to absorb Gortat & stay under the tax.

A trading partner like that is desirable -- lots of teams will be looking for that trading partner. The result is that trading partner is in a position of power, can pick & choose, & can cut a deal very much in its favor.

Nor are we in a position to be under the tax next year, as far as I can tell. & certainly not the following year. Not without breaking up the team.

Edit: in the above, I didn't count gamby's zeros accurately. No, a 500k or 1m contract is not that big a hit. Yet, it does threaten to increase our tax payments -- not just for the new contracts but for all the $$ over the tax limit.

As to "zimmerman is a first round talent" -- he was picked #41 in 1016, & he's been cut by two teams. I think he has potential, & he's only 21, but the higher the cost of bringing him on, the lower the attractiveness of doing it.

[payitforward]

...And I may have this screwed up, but my understanding on the lux tax calculation is that it's based only on the roster you have on the last day of the season. Maybe it actually helps to cut a player like McCullough making 1.5 mil and picking up a min salary guy like Zimmerman? And min salaries don't count against the regular cap, so there's no restriction there other than roster spots. Again, I could be completely wrong on the lux tax.

You're not wrong, but ultimately you are still paying the money. Either in tax or to the player then another player and that contracts cap hit to the tax. its really a minimal impact though. It all boils down to ok, how much do we want a tittle. because any little tiny improvement could be something that makes or breaks us in the end.
Who can be cut, paid and not be too much of a bother to replace. right now we stand at 16 contracts and 2 D league deals.
Tim, Sloan, Scott, Mac, and felix are all on cheap 1 year deals.
So cut mac, memphis did this with chalmers a year or two ago when he blew his leg out when eh was on a one year deal, they jsut paid him and he went home.
that puts you at 15 contracts with felix, who has played well. and our two d league players, so Cut tim. bring in zimmerman and you have 15 dudes and a 21 year old center prospect.
You can cut scott, sloan or felix, bu felix is playing well and he can play the 2 or the 3 and after Kelley we don't have much there, sloan is a pretty solid back up point guard and who would you replace scott with? Terrance jones? Sullinger? christian wood, derrick williams?
So i would cut Tim, (silly considering we paid a second for him but thats water under the bridge at this point.) and Mac (pay the kid, let him heal and give him a chance when hes better.) Sign a guy like zimmerman and keep felix. Keep sloan and scott unless a better player comes around cheap.

Sigh.... Gamby, do yourself a favor & don't opine on this stuff, b/c you clearly haven't taken the time to understand it. & you're not doing the simple arithmetic to understand the costs of these maneuvers.

Yes, Ruz is wrong. A guaranteed contract is... well, guaranteed. If you waive the guy, you don't get to stop paying him, & you don't get to remove his salary from your total. In fact, another team can pick him up for free -- at least at the $$ level you guaranteed.

We can cut Sloan or Felix w/o any cost, b/c their contracts are not guaranteed. OTOH, we seem to have picked up Mac's option. So, no, we can't cut him or Scott or Frazier or McCullough w/o paying every penny in their salaries & the tax penalties as well. & paying the new guys' salaries too of course. & tax payments on their salaries. & the extra tax payments (on all dollars over the limit) that you likely incurred for the team w/ these maneuvers that raised your total salary level.

Please -- stop talking about this. It's ridiculous.

[payitforward]

I'm circling like a vulture over New Orleans. Their twin towers lineup with no guard play and no cap room is certain to end in disaster. The obvious play is to trade Otto Porter for Demarcus Cousins with Asik and one of our centers being swapped to make the salaries match. Bill Simmons and others on his podcast think the trade is likely, though they seem to think that Washington needs to include multiple 1st rounders, which is silly. Cousins' trade value, with just a few months left on an expiring contract, isn't that high.

The only problem is, I don't really want to trade Porter for Cousins.

So with that in mind, how about uniting John Wall and Cousins together... in New Orleans? New Orleans has got to be concerned that Anthony Davis wants to get out as soon as he can, and they really don't have any avenue to improve the team well enough to convince him to stay. How many first round picks would we need to add to trade John Wall for Anthony Davis plus bad contracts?

A core of Beal, Porter and Davis should contend for years. Each of them are just 24 years old! Also, we get out of Wall's gargantuan contract, which should make it a bit easier to build some depth around the core.

Cousins' trade value was set last year; if anything it has to have gone down, b/c his contract is about to expire.

Only a fool would trade Porter for Cousins. Even straight up, the move makes us worse.

But I'm all over your idea! Could we get Davis, Cheick Diallo, Frank Jackson, & 1 bad contract for Wall, Mahinmi & a R1 pick? (nah...)

[Illmatic12]

Zach Lowe "32 crazy predictions" mentions Washington trading for Deandre Jordan scenarios

The Clippers trade DeAndre Jordan if they underperform

The most tantalizing candidate: the Wizards. Let's build Lob City, East! Washington could offer Marcin Gortat, Kelly Oubre, Jason Smith, and at least one unprotected first-round pick. Want to simplify? Just send Otto Porter for Jordan (and one teensy salary) once Porter becomes trade eligible in January.

One monkey wrench: The salaries going back and forth have to match almost exactly; the Wizards is over the tax line, and the Clippers are crouched just beneath it. A huge contract for Jordan would be untenable atop Washington's other giant salaries. It's still workable, especially if a third team helps.

The Mavs could open enough space to absorb Jordan sending out only Dwight Powell, Nerlens Noel and a pick, but there was that whole kidnapping thing. The Thunder have already unloaded two young players on mega-deals for superior veterans; why not flip Steven Adams for Jordan? (The answer: any talent gap between Adams and Jordan is small, and shrinking. Also, it should be illegal for any team to have two of Andre Roberson, Jordan, and Drummond.) Other suitors might come out of the woodwork.

Washington faces one other obstacle:

The Wizards trade a pick to shed someone in July (probably a center)

If that theoretical Jordan trade doesn't happen, the Wiz are still slated to be about $10 million over next season's tax if Smith and Jodie Meeks pick up player options. Washington might need a pick to bribe someone into swallowing Ian Mahinmi.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21002422/zach-lowe-32-crazy-nba-predictions-2017-18

[Dark Faze]

I don't know. One thing for sure that I know--Gortat has lost playoff battles against almost every center he's faced in the post season as a Wizard. He was rekt by Hibbard, lost to Horford twice (ATL/BOS), was not particularly good against the small ball Hawks front court--the only guy I think he beat definitively was Val from Toronto a couple years back. He's also looked horrible defending 5 out offenses which the league is trending towards.

Porter would really need to show me something for me not to trade him for Cousins straight up at the deadline if that move was available.

[Illmatic12]

Otto needs to average 15-17ppg & 7rpg this year. Especially if we're playing him at the 4 he will have plenty of offensive opportunities.

If he's producing at the same level he did last year, we would win bigtime in a Porter-for-Cousins deal

[nate33]

Zach Lowe "32 crazy predictions" mentions Washington trading for Deandre Jordan scenarios

The Clippers trade DeAndre Jordan if they underperform

The most tantalizing candidate: the Wizards. Let's build Lob City, East! Washington could offer Marcin Gortat, Kelly Oubre, Jason Smith, and at least one unprotected first-round pick. Want to simplify? Just send Otto Porter for Jordan (and one teensy salary) once Porter becomes trade eligible in January.

One monkey wrench: The salaries going back and forth have to match almost exactly; the Wizards is over the tax line, and the Clippers are crouched just beneath it. A huge contract for Jordan would be untenable atop Washington's other giant salaries. It's still workable, especially if a third team helps.

The Mavs could open enough space to absorb Jordan sending out only Dwight Powell, Nerlens Noel and a pick, but there was that whole kidnapping thing. The Thunder have already unloaded two young players on mega-deals for superior veterans; why not flip Steven Adams for Jordan? (The answer: any talent gap between Adams and Jordan is small, and shrinking. Also, it should be illegal for any team to have two of Andre Roberson, Jordan, and Drummond.) Other suitors might come out of the woodwork.

Washington faces one other obstacle:

The Wizards trade a pick to shed someone in July (probably a center)

If that theoretical Jordan trade doesn't happen, the Wiz are still slated to be about $10 million over next season's tax if Smith and Jodie Meeks pick up player options. Washington might need a pick to bribe someone into swallowing Ian Mahinmi.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21002422/zach-lowe-32-crazy-nba-predictions-2017-18

Jordan is only under contract for the remainder of this year. He has a player option next year at $24M. It would be insane to trade away Oubre and a pick in order to upgrade from Gortat to Jordan for, at best, 1.5 seasons.

[Illmatic12]

Zach Lowe "32 crazy predictions" mentions Washington trading for Deandre Jordan scenarios

The Clippers trade DeAndre Jordan if they underperform

The most tantalizing candidate: the Wizards. Let's build Lob City, East! Washington could offer Marcin Gortat, Kelly Oubre, Jason Smith, and at least one unprotected first-round pick. Want to simplify? Just send Otto Porter for Jordan (and one teensy salary) once Porter becomes trade eligible in January.

One monkey wrench: The salaries going back and forth have to match almost exactly; the Wizards is over the tax line, and the Clippers are crouched just beneath it. A huge contract for Jordan would be untenable atop Washington's other giant salaries. It's still workable, especially if a third team helps.

The Mavs could open enough space to absorb Jordan sending out only Dwight Powell, Nerlens Noel and a pick, but there was that whole kidnapping thing. The Thunder have already unloaded two young players on mega-deals for superior veterans; why not flip Steven Adams for Jordan? (The answer: any talent gap between Adams and Jordan is small, and shrinking. Also, it should be illegal for any team to have two of Andre Roberson, Jordan, and Drummond.) Other suitors might come out of the woodwork.

Washington faces one other obstacle:

The Wizards trade a pick to shed someone in July (probably a center)

If that theoretical Jordan trade doesn't happen, the Wiz are still slated to be about $10 million over next season's tax if Smith and Jodie Meeks pick up player options. Washington might need a pick to bribe someone into swallowing Ian Mahinmi.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21002422/zach-lowe-32-crazy-nba-predictions-2017-18

Jordan is only under contract for the remainder of this year. He has a player option next year at $24M. It would be insane to trade away Oubre and a pick in order to upgrade from Gortat to Jordan for, at best, 1.5 seasons.

Why at best 1.5 seasons? You try to retain him of course. In 2019, if Jordan re-signs for say, 3yrs/$60mil then we've upgraded from a bottom ~5 to a top 5 defensive center for the remainder of Wall's prime.

And if Kelly shows significant upside as a future starting caliber SF then I'd be hesitant to trade him. But in the event that his development stagnates this season (for instance if he still can't crack 30% from three) then next summer would be the time to gauge his value on the market.

[Dark Faze]

Kelly's value is actually becoming less the closer he gets to that extension. He's only two seasons away now.

[payitforward]

...Jordan is only under contract for the remainder of this year. He has a player option next year at $24M. It would be insane to trade away Oubre and a pick in order to upgrade from Gortat to Jordan for, at best, 1.5 seasons.

Why at best 1.5 seasons? You try to retain him of course. In 2019, if Jordan re-signs for say, 3yrs/$60mil then we've upgraded from a bottom ~5 to a top 5 defensive center for the remainder of Wall's prime.

And if Kelly shows significant upside as a future starting caliber SF then I'd be hesitant to trade him. But in the event that his development stagnates this season (for instance if he still can't crack 30% from three) then next summer would be the time to gauge his value on the market.

This is really getting ridiculous -- if we made this move, & if Jordan re-signed for your suggested 3 years / $60m, then in 2019-20 we would have 5 players earning a combined $126m.

Can everyone please start paying attention to the realities of the cap & tax structure.