Arenas for Vince or dump Arenas for cap space?

[Ruzious]

I figure it's a heavily protected 1st. Maybe top 16 this year, top 14 next year, and then lotto protected in perpetuity. There's no way Ted gives up a lotto pick in the immediate future just to dump Arenas.

Yeah, or after 5 years or so, it turns into a 2nd round pick.

[nate33]

From an Orlando Magic forum, for whatever it's worth...(not even sure if this is an accurate report or not)


Hey guys. I know its my 1st post but i just heard on 740am the game about the magic proposing a deal that would send carter to the wizards for gilbert arenas and a future 1st round pick. They said that earlier in the offseason it was wizards who 1st proposed to orlando but otis laughed at it. Well now otis has a change of heart according to them and is willing to do it. They said a 3rd team is interested in the trade that could send gortat also. This is paraphrasing what they said. "Word around magic front office is that otis has been approved on spending since they matched redicks offer from the bulls. That wasn't the case a couple days before the draft. The devos family was hesitant on spending and that is the reason on otis declining the original gilbert for vince trade because they didn't want the extra years and money added on to their payroll. The trade is being finalized and could be done by tomorrow but a 3rd team is interested that could move gortat and push the trade to be done by end of the week."

http://orlandomagiczone.com/eve/forums/ ... 108488/p/1

I just clicked on the link. The amount of ignorance on that thread is stunning. Some guys are suggesting that Orlando would do it only after Arenas is first bought out by Washington (which is impossible under the CBA and nonsensical if the Wizards' premise is to dump salary). Others are saying that Arenas isn't as good as Carter even when healthy. Others are thinking that Arenas would exercise his player option in 2 years.

[Benjammin]

^^^^

Yeah, it was pretty painful. Plus, no one seemed to corroborate hearing that information on that radio station. So it may be completely fabricated. Who knows?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

When Gil gets traded for Vince, I will continue to be optimistic about the way the franchise is heading.

Although I believe Gil is far better, along with being 4 years younger than Vince; the Wizards would be getting a still better-than-average SG or SF. Orlando for last season was much better with Vince on the court, until the playoffs. They destroyed Atlanta in the playoffs with Vince playing well. They got beat by Boston with Vince playing poorly. The playoff series made Carter seem worse than he was.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09ORL5.HTM

Vince is clearly on the downside of his career. He had a miserable January and a bad last playoff series. His play in January could well have been due to injury. Against Boston in the playoffs, he just got outplayed by Allen and Pierce. Not such a disgrace.

I DO NOT WANT THE DEAL TO GO DOWN. I want the Wizards to be smart and keep Gil.

However, when the Wizards get Carter it might not be too bad. Vince does play pretty good defense, at SG and at SF. He's still a good player. Perhaps he really put in work to improve following the way the team lost last year. Perhaps he's still got one or two good seasons left.

The Magic were +7.5 points per 100 possessions with Carter on the court.

[nate33]

Here's a positive thought:

This could be another example of EG's "Trojan Horse Strategy". We sent Jamison's fat contract to Cleveland, which left them totally screwed and capped out after Lebron's departure. Now we can send Arenas' ginormous contract to Orlando. In 2012, if things start to fall apart there, Howard will be a free agent and may want to leave. We'll have the perfect situation for him with cap room and a bunch of young stars. We could even engineer a McGee for Howard S&T to help ease their loss.

How ridiculous would our lineup be two years down the road with a seasoned Wall, a seasoned Blatche, Dwight Howard, and whatever young swing men we find between now and then? Just find two catch-shoot-and-defend swingmen and we'd have the best defense in the league plus a damn good offense.

[JWizmentality]

Here's a positive thought:

This could be another example of EG's "Trojan Horse Strategy". We sent Jamison's fat contract to Cleveland, which left them totally screwed and capped out after Lebron's departure. Now we can send Arenas' ginormous contract to Orlando. In 2012, if things start to fall apart there, Howard will be a free agent and may want to leave. We'll have the perfect situation for him with cap room and a bunch of young stars. We could even engineer a McGee for Howard S&T to help ease their loss.

How ridiculous would our lineup be two years down the road with a seasoned Wall, a seasoned Blatche, Dwight Howard, and whatever young swing men we find between now and then? Just find two catch-shoot-and-defend swingmen and we'd have the best defense in the league plus a damn good offense.

The Jamison plan was sweet, but I don't see Orlando getting any worse with Arenas despite his contract. In fact, I see that wooden horse biting us in the ass down the road.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If Vince comes, perhaps he could start at SF. Carter's better than Al Thornton.

Wall, Young, Carter, Blatche, McGee is not a bad lineup.

[nate33]

The Jamison plan was sweet, but I don't see Orlando getting any worse with Arenas despite his contract. In fact, I see that wooden horse biting us in the ass down the road.

They don't have to get worse. They just have to disappoint in the playoffs for the next two years so that Howard gets frustrated with losing. I think it's a legit possibility. It's always a warning sign when teams start overpaying to retain/acquire mediocre players. Orlando is looking a bit desperate right now.

I can't think of a more perfect situation for Howard than to join the Wizards in 2012. He'd be joining a team on the upswing with a newly inspired fan base in a major market. He'd have The Great Wall setting him up. Blatche could provide some low post offense to allow Howard be more of a rebounder/defender, something he seems more comfortable doing. And Blatche can also step out and knock down the 20-footer to create space for Howard to operate.

[nate33]

If Vince comes, perhaps he could start at SF. Carter's better than Al Thornton.

Wall, Young, Carter, Blatche, McGee is not a bad lineup.

Yup.

That's another thing about the trade that I think some are overlooking. Vince Carter is no longer a superstar, but he's not chopped liver either. With his size and decent defense, I'm not so sure the Wizards would be all that much worse this year with him on the roster instead of Arenas.

[WizStorm]

If Vince comes, perhaps he could start at SF. Carter's better than Al Thornton.

Wall, Young, Carter, Blatche, McGee is not a bad lineup.

Yup.

That's another thing about the trade that I think some are overlooking. Vince Carter is no longer a superstar, but he's not chopped liver either. With his size and decent defense, I'm not so sure the Wizards would be all that much worse this year with him on the roster instead of Arenas.

For me, it's 100% about attitude rather than ability. Vince has never shown the work ethic or positive attitude when part of a rebuilding squad. No reason to think his mindset would be any different in DC. It's his type of "bitchy" attitude that absolutely sinks a team with really young players trying to learn the right way to play and win in the NBA.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Here's a positive thought:

This could be another example of EG's "Trojan Horse Strategy". We sent Jamison's fat contract to Cleveland, which left them totally screwed and capped out after Lebron's departure. Now we can send Arenas' ginormous contract to Orlando. In 2012, if things start to fall apart there, Howard will be a free agent and may want to leave. We'll have the perfect situation for him with cap room and a bunch of young stars. We could even engineer a McGee for Howard S&T to help ease their loss.

How ridiculous would our lineup be two years down the road with a seasoned Wall, a seasoned Blatche, Dwight Howard, and whatever young swing men we find between now and then? Just find two catch-shoot-and-defend swingmen and we'd have the best defense in the league plus a damn good offense.

The Jamison plan was sweet, but I don't see Orlando getting any worse with Arenas despite his contract. In fact, I see that wooden horse biting us in the ass down the road.

JWiz, the Magic with Arenas? We'd be lucky if all the wooden horse does is bite us in the ass.

I'm thinking splinters, in a very bad place. Trojan horse of a whole different sort, man.

[miller31time]

If Vince comes, perhaps he could start at SF. Carter's better than Al Thornton.

Wall, Young, Carter, Blatche, McGee is not a bad lineup.

Yup.

That's another thing about the trade that I think some are overlooking. Vince Carter is no longer a superstar, but he's not chopped liver either. With his size and decent defense, I'm not so sure the Wizards would be all that much worse this year with him on the roster instead of Arenas.

He's certainly better, fit-wise. His usage rate is (obviously) much less than Gilbert's.

Even when Gilbert shared the backcourt with Larry Hughes, Arenas still managed to put up a high usage rate of 27.3%. When he worked a lot with Antonio Daniels the year after, it jumped to 30.5 with a peak of 31.9% last season. Carter's came out to about 25% last season and is bound to decrease with less workload, brought on by age.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Yeah, I trust Ted to the extent I know he wouldn't give away high draft picks unless they were highly protected.

Regarding the principle of an Arenas for Carter swap, I'd begrudgingly accept it. Gilbert is a great player and a better person (despite the gun incident) but his contract, defensive limitations plus the fact he plays the same position as our franchise player (Wall) says to me that if we can get him off our books, we need to do it.

I'd also hope that Gilbert kicks ass in Orlando because, while he's a knucklehead sometimes, he's also one of the true "real" people we have in this league and about as entertaining as they come.

+1

[JonathanJoseph]

Giving up a 1st round pick for nothing more than a salary dump? If they just let him play 1/2 a season and he stays healthy and out of trouble, his trade value skyrockets. And Arenas would be in the Southeast. Would be a terrible, terrible move.

[miller31time]

If Vince comes, perhaps he could start at SF. Carter's better than Al Thornton.

Wall, Young, Carter, Blatche, McGee is not a bad lineup.

Yup.

That's another thing about the trade that I think some are overlooking. Vince Carter is no longer a superstar, but he's not chopped liver either. With his size and decent defense, I'm not so sure the Wizards would be all that much worse this year with him on the roster instead of Arenas.

For me, it's 100% about attitude rather than ability. Vince has never shown the work ethic or positive attitude when part of a rebuilding squad. No reason to think his mindset would be any different in DC. It's his type of "bitchy" attitude that absolutely sinks a team with really young players trying to learn the right way to play and win in the NBA.

Vince's attitude problems and supposed lack of work ethic are overblown. He doesn't possess the insatiable dedication that Kobe Bryant has or Michael Jordan had but he's not lazy. He certainly left Toronto on a sour note but that was one instance and it didn't occur until after years of playing with a Raptors team that had failed to build a championship-caliber squad.

Having Carter on this team will not be a negative, in my opinion.

[fishercob]

If Vince comes, perhaps he could start at SF. Carter's better than Al Thornton.

Wall, Young, Carter, Blatche, McGee is not a bad lineup.

Yup.

That's another thing about the trade that I think some are overlooking. Vince Carter is no longer a superstar, but he's not chopped liver either. With his size and decent defense, I'm not so sure the Wizards would be all that much worse this year with him on the roster instead of Arenas.

I don't know how you can start Nick Young when the coach has stated loud and proud that his main concern with his team is whether or not they can rebound defensively. Nick Young is 6'7" and is a statistically worse rebounder than Earl Boykins. Having him in the lineup would only exacerbate what looks to be a serious deficiency.

[DCZards]

Vince's attitude problems and supposed lack of work ethic are overblown. He doesn't possess the insatiable dedication that Kobe Bryant has or Michael Jordan had but he's not lazy. He certainly left Toronto on a sour note but that was one instance and it didn't occur until after years of playing with a Raptors team that had failed to build a championship-caliber squad.

Having Carter on this team will not be a negative, in my opinion.

I hate the idea of trading Gil. Man, the idea of a Wall-Arenas backcourt sends a tingle down my leg. But it is true that Carter can still ball and I agree that his so-called "bad attitude" has always seemed overblown to me. But I'm still against the trade.

[nate33]

A went several years back in the 82games.com database and Vince Carter always seems to have a substantially positive on/off differential. The numbers indicate that he was a major positive influence for Orlando on the defensive end last year. And in his NJ Nets years, he was always a positive influence on offense and relatively indifferent on defense.

The biggest knock on Carter is that he no longer will (or can) get into the lane. His shooting percentages outside, inside and dunk have remained relatively consistent, it's just that a greater proportion of his shots have come from the outside as he has aged. He still maintains a pretty impressive eFG of 46% from the outside.

I agree with miller31time that Carter's attitude problems are a bit overblown. His intensity has never been in line with his talent, but he's basically a fundamentally sound and selfless player. I don't think he'd be a negative influence in the locker room.

[WizStorm]

Phil Jackson on Vince:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baske ... ise-2.html

Phil Jackson already been through what the Nets are going through with Jason Kidd, and the legendary Lakers coach thinks the situation in New Jersey may be fixable. However, he feels that is true only if Vince Carter raises his intensity level.

Speaking about Kidd's public trade request, which is similar to what Kobe Bryant did in L.A. last season, Jackson complimented Kidd before last night's game between the Nets and Lakers, calling the disgruntled point guard a "great leader" and a "motivator." But after praising Richard Jefferson also, Jackson took a not-so-subtle jab at Carter.

"Jefferson is playing great; Carter seems to be just playing right now," Jackson said before pausing and adding, "not playing with that fire that Jason seems to imbue in his game."

Kidd last week went public with his desire to be moved to a more competitive team and is supposedly frustrated with Carter's laid-back approach. After signing a four-year, $61 million deal last summer, Carter went into last night's game averaging 20.5 points. He has frequently appeared content to pass or settle for jumpers instead of attacking the basket.

[nate33]

I don't know how you can start Nick Young when the coach has stated loud and proud that his main concern with his team is whether or not they can rebound defensively. Nick Young is 6'7" and is a statistically worse rebounder than Earl Boykins. Having him in the lineup would only exacerbate what looks to be a serious deficiency.

You gotta force misses to rebound. Young is better at forcing misses than anybody else in our backcourt.

I like the balance of a starting lineup featuring Wall, Young, Carter, Blatche and McGee backed up by Hinrich, Thornton, Yi and Seraphin. I like Hinrich and Thornton coming off the bench as a facilitator/scorer combo rather than starting Hinrich and bringing Young and Thornton off the bench together.