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Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread.

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#461 » by Frichuela » Tue Jul 5, 2022 12:58 am

Dat2U wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:See you in 20 games - I hope you are right... My guess is the guards, Morris; Wright; Beal; Barton, and Davis will play more than 96 minutes. I think Kispert should be in that group as well.


So unless all the forward minutes go exclusively to Avdija, Kuzma, Hahimura and Gill, you are going to accuse the coach of fetishizing smallball?

I just disagree with that stance. I consider Barton, Davis and Kispert to be SG/SF's, capable of playing the two positions interchangeably. If they end up taking a significant chunk of SF minutes, I won't consider it some kind of fundamental error in coaching philosophy. I'll only be upset if they are getting minutes over Avdija/Hachimura/Kuzma while playing worse than them.


Agreed. Kispert's best position is probably SF based on his skillset. Barton has been interchangible at either wing spot for Denver. I'm penciling him and Morris in the starting lineup for shooting and offensive pop.

I also think Davis will endear himself quickly with his defensive intensity and could even steal a few minutes alongside Beal in some lineups.

I would be disappointed if the Wizards carried Kuz, Deni & Rui into the regular season. I assume a consolidation trade is coming.


I hope so. Otherwise, it's going to get uncomfortable in that locker room...
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#462 » by payitforward » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:42 am

dckingsfan wrote:See you in 20 games - I hope you are right... My guess is the guards, Morris; Wright; Beal; Barton, and Davis will play more than 96 minutes. I think Kispert should be in that group as well.

Barton has been a 2-3 pretty much his entire career. When he's on the floor with 2 guards, he's a 3.

If you prefer to insist that, no, Will Barton is a "guard," then "guards" played over 10,000 regular season minutes for Denver last year -- more than 1/2 of all minutes.

In short, if Morris, Wright, Beal & Davis (plus whoever else we may add at the 1 or 2) combine to play let's say 84 minutes a night, & Barton logs 24 minutes, it indicates that Barton is playing @ 12 minutes a night at the 3.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#463 » by payitforward » Tue Jul 5, 2022 2:00 am

prime1time wrote:
Dat2U wrote:To me the obvious move is to deal Rui as we have 4 other PFs on the roster. Yes, he has improved his 3-ball and as a perimeter defender but the rest of his game is still a work in progress. The awareness is still poor when it comes to defensive rotations or seeing the floor offensively which mutes his impact. I don't think he rebounds well enough as a 4 either. I don't see a breakout coming considering the crowded roster and lack of aggression from him. Nor do I see much benefit in extending him so moving him for any type of asset feels like a now or never scenario.

The obsession this board has with trading Rui is fascinating. Unless we are going to bring back something of real value I have no desire to trade him. Even the complaints - he lacks awareness/he doesn't know where to be/he doesn't rebound well enough - strike me as bizarre. Rui at worst is a defender that you don't have to hide and just showed significant improvement from 3-point range. To say that you don't see the chance for improvement is fascinating to me.

Given his improved shooting, teams will have to run him off the 3-point line. This will open the rest of his offensive game and make everything much easier. Instead of driving in and taking contested long 2's, he will start to shoot more 3's. If the team closes out hard on him at the 3-point line, he should pump fake and drive-in, now taking a wide-open mid-range jumper. Barring trade Rui should be the starting PF on this team. Outside of Beal and Porzingis, he is the one guy that projects as an efficient scorer. Does he process the game as quick as would be ideal? No. But on that front he has shown consistent improvement.

;ab_channel=TremendousUpside
Look at this play at 1:31. He pumpfakes, Toppin jumps, Rui drives kicks to Gill, relocates to the 3-point line and knocks down the 3. The next play they trap Avdija (something that teams have done to Beal for years) Rui relocates up and knocks down the 3. The previous two plays before 1:31, Rui takes Arcidiacno off the dribble and Sims off the dribble. The whole video is just a showcase as to how tough it is to guard Hachimura.

With his improved 3-point shooting, Rui has the ability to score at all 3 levels. Only a handful of teams will have good enough defenders to really be able to effectivelyand guard Beal, Porzingis and still put a capable defender onto Rui. Now that he have more capable guards, Rui will be able to get back into his pick and roll or pick and pop game, and continue to just rack up easy points. If his 3-point shooting holds up, Rui projects as a player who will finish the season shooting 50% plus from the field.

As Rui continues to refine his game, his offense only stands to improve. The skill is already there, now it's a matter of figuring out when to do what. And the coach placing him in positions to be successful. So far from the belief that Rui can't improve, the reality is that Rui could be an easy 20 ppg scorer on great efficiency. How many players can we say that about on this team?

And here's the real truth, all the negatives that you mentioned are things that can be improved with good coaching. Look at Nick Young - he lacked awareness. He has a NBA Championship. Look at Javale McGee, he lacked awareness. Now he has 3 championships. You don't just get rid of guys who can score efficiently at volume. It's the most important attribute an NBA player can have.

May it turn out just the way you see it. But...

1. Highlights a person chooses to display at his best a player who is that person's favorite don't constitute evidence of anything.
2. Nick Young has a championship is evidence that he was on a team that won a title; it's not evidence that he was a good player. He wasn't a good player.
3. Javale McGee developed, but that is not evidence that Rui will develop.
4. Neither Nick nor Javale are evidence that Rui "can score efficiently at volume." Especially since he has done neither yet.

Still, I hope his overall level of play improves significantly this year -- maybe even all the way to average for a guy at his position. Even better, I hope that unlike Nick Young he actually becomes a good player & that like Javale he develops. Would be great too if he really did become a guy who scores efficiently at volume -- rather than a guy who scores at below average efficiency & not at high volume. Especially if he also does other positive things with a whole lot greater frequency & better effect than he's shown so far.

& even if he does all those things, you can still trade him. You can trade anyone: it's all about what you get back in the trade.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#464 » by NatP4 » Tue Jul 5, 2022 2:21 am

Dat2U wrote:Morris 24 Wright 20
Beal 36 Davis 16
Barton 24 Kispert 16
Kuzma 24 Avdija 16 Hachimura 16
Porzingis 28 Gafford 20

Best i could come up with for current group.


This is the best you can come up with? Our last three 1st round picks playing a combined 48 minutes a night?

It’s clear to me that Barton&Kuzma need to be moved. They will just block better players, that are actually a part of our future, from playing.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#465 » by prime1time » Tue Jul 5, 2022 2:32 am

payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:
Dat2U wrote:To me the obvious move is to deal Rui as we have 4 other PFs on the roster. Yes, he has improved his 3-ball and as a perimeter defender but the rest of his game is still a work in progress. The awareness is still poor when it comes to defensive rotations or seeing the floor offensively which mutes his impact. I don't think he rebounds well enough as a 4 either. I don't see a breakout coming considering the crowded roster and lack of aggression from him. Nor do I see much benefit in extending him so moving him for any type of asset feels like a now or never scenario.

The obsession this board has with trading Rui is fascinating. Unless we are going to bring back something of real value I have no desire to trade him. Even the complaints - he lacks awareness/he doesn't know where to be/he doesn't rebound well enough - strike me as bizarre. Rui at worst is a defender that you don't have to hide and just showed significant improvement from 3-point range. To say that you don't see the chance for improvement is fascinating to me.

Given his improved shooting, teams will have to run him off the 3-point line. This will open the rest of his offensive game and make everything much easier. Instead of driving in and taking contested long 2's, he will start to shoot more 3's. If the team closes out hard on him at the 3-point line, he should pump fake and drive-in, now taking a wide-open mid-range jumper. Barring trade Rui should be the starting PF on this team. Outside of Beal and Porzingis, he is the one guy that projects as an efficient scorer. Does he process the game as quick as would be ideal? No. But on that front he has shown consistent improvement.

;ab_channel=TremendousUpside
Look at this play at 1:31. He pumpfakes, Toppin jumps, Rui drives kicks to Gill, relocates to the 3-point line and knocks down the 3. The next play they trap Avdija (something that teams have done to Beal for years) Rui relocates up and knocks down the 3. The previous two plays before 1:31, Rui takes Arcidiacno off the dribble and Sims off the dribble. The whole video is just a showcase as to how tough it is to guard Hachimura.

With his improved 3-point shooting, Rui has the ability to score at all 3 levels. Only a handful of teams will have good enough defenders to really be able to effectivelyand guard Beal, Porzingis and still put a capable defender onto Rui. Now that he have more capable guards, Rui will be able to get back into his pick and roll or pick and pop game, and continue to just rack up easy points. If his 3-point shooting holds up, Rui projects as a player who will finish the season shooting 50% plus from the field.

As Rui continues to refine his game, his offense only stands to improve. The skill is already there, now it's a matter of figuring out when to do what. And the coach placing him in positions to be successful. So far from the belief that Rui can't improve, the reality is that Rui could be an easy 20 ppg scorer on great efficiency. How many players can we say that about on this team?

And here's the real truth, all the negatives that you mentioned are things that can be improved with good coaching. Look at Nick Young - he lacked awareness. He has a NBA Championship. Look at Javale McGee, he lacked awareness. Now he has 3 championships. You don't just get rid of guys who can score efficiently at volume. It's the most important attribute an NBA player can have.

May it turn out just the way you see it. But...

1. Highlights a person chooses to display at his best a player who is that person's favorite don't constitute evidence of anything.
2. Nick Young has a championship is evidence that he was on a team that won a title; it's not evidence that he was a good player. He wasn't a good player.
3. Javale McGee developed, but that is not evidence that Rui will develop.
4. Neither Nick nor Javale are evidence that Rui "can score efficiently at volume." Especially since he has done neither yet.

Still, I hope his overall level of play improves significantly this year -- maybe even all the way to average for a guy at his position. Even better, I hope that unlike Nick Young he actually becomes a good player & that like Javale he develops. Would be great too if he really did become a guy who scores efficiently at volume -- rather than a guy who scores at below average efficiency & not at high volume. Especially if he also does other positive things with a whole lot greater frequency & better effect than he's shown so far.

& even if he does all those things, you can still trade him. You can trade anyone: it's all about what you get back in the trade.

There really wasn't any need to quote me to be honest. All you ever do is say the same thing you've always said lol.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#466 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Tue Jul 5, 2022 3:50 am

Dat2U wrote:Morris 24 Wright 20
Beal 36 Davis 16
Barton 24 Kispert 16
Kuzma 24 Avdija 16 Hachimura 16
Porzingis 28 Gafford 20

Best i could come up with for current group.


Maybe something like this?

Wright 22 Morris 20 Davis 6
Beal 30 Kispert 12 Davis 6
Kuzma 16 Barton 22 Avdija 10
Hachimura 24 Kuzma 14 Avdija 10
Porzingis 28 Gafford 20
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#467 » by Menace2Sobriety » Tue Jul 5, 2022 4:13 am

Similar lineup for me but I’d like to see Deni start and get more time.

Wright/Morris 42 Davis 6
Beal 30 Kispert 12 Davis 6
Deni 24 Barton 18 Kispert/Kuz 6
Rui 30 Kuz 12 Deni 6
KP 30 Gafford 18

Love to trade Barton. Hopefully Davis can earn more playing time.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#468 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 5, 2022 4:20 am

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Morris 24 Wright 20
Beal 36 Davis 16
Barton 24 Kispert 16
Kuzma 24 Avdija 16 Hachimura 16
Porzingis 28 Gafford 20

Best i could come up with for current group.


Maybe something like this?

Wright 22 Morris 20 Davis 6
Beal 30 Kispert 12 Davis 6
Kuzma 16 Barton 22 Avdija 10
Hachimura 24 Kuzma 14 Avdija 10
Porzingis 28 Gafford 20

Wes won't play an 11-man rotation. It's unworkable. Players don't get enough minutes to get into a rhythm. Somebody is going to get benched (probably Davis at first). Wes will wait for somebody to get hurt before finding minutes for the 11th man.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#469 » by tleikheen » Tue Jul 5, 2022 5:52 am

PG) Beal 34 mpg , Morris 14 mpg
SG) Kispert 28 mpg , Barton 14mpg ,Davis 6mpg
SF) Kuzma 28 mpg , Avidja 16 mpg ,Barton 4 mpg
PF) Hachimura 28 mpg . Avidja 12 mpg , Kuzma 4 mpg ,Gafford 4 mpg
C) Porzingus 32 mpg, Gafford 16 mpg

Beal 34 mpg
Porzingus 32 mpg
Kuzma 32 mpg
Kispert 28 mpg
Avidja 28 mpg
Hachimura 28 mpg
Gafford 20 mpg
Barton 18 mpg
Morris 14 mpg
Davis 6 mpg
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#470 » by payitforward » Tue Jul 5, 2022 1:26 pm

prime1time wrote:
payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:The obsession this board has with trading Rui....

May it turn out just the way you see it! But....

...All you ever do is say the same thing you've always said lol.

You're right! :lol: Of course that's just as true of you as it is of me! :wink:

I hope Rui kills it this year!
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#471 » by dckingsfan » Tue Jul 5, 2022 2:25 pm

payitforward wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:See you in 20 games - I hope you are right... My guess is the guards, Morris; Wright; Beal; Barton, and Davis will play more than 96 minutes. I think Kispert should be in that group as well.

Barton has been a 2-3 pretty much his entire career. When he's on the floor with 2 guards, he's a 3.

If you prefer to insist that, no, Will Barton is a "guard," then "guards" played over 10,000 regular season minutes for Denver last year -- more than 1/2 of all minutes.

In short, if Morris, Wright, Beal & Davis (plus whoever else we may add at the 1 or 2) combine to play let's say 84 minutes a night, & Barton logs 24 minutes, it indicates that Barton is playing @ 12 minutes a night at the 3.

Agreed. My point is that I see Wes playing those 1/2/3s over the 3/4s at the beginning of the season - as Wes did last year.

And my point is that Deni and Rui (IMO) will have the short stick at the beginning of the season.

And my second point - we won't know until 20 games into the season.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#472 » by dckingsfan » Tue Jul 5, 2022 2:30 pm

NatP4 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Morris 24 Wright 20
Beal 36 Davis 16
Barton 24 Kispert 16
Kuzma 24 Avdija 16 Hachimura 16
Porzingis 28 Gafford 20

Best i could come up with for current group.

This is the best you can come up with? Our last three 1st round picks playing a combined 48 minutes a night?

It’s clear to me that Barton&Kuzma need to be moved. They will just block better players, that are actually a part of our future, from playing.

I don't like Dat's line up either... but it is closer to reality than not (IMO) based upon Wes' previous lineups.

I think there will be some time when he plays Morris and Wright together. I see Davis' minutes dropping (or not playing initially). I see either Avdija or Rui's (I could see one of them not playing at the beginning of the season). I see Kuz' and Porzingis' minutes going up a bit. I also think we will see Wright get more minutes than Morris (but maybe not until later in the season). And Wes loves Kispert - so his minutes will go up (just an opinion).

One other option Wes could do is start Wright/Beal/Kispert in order to have Morris and Barton come off the bench together. I see nothing to indicate that he wouldn't have Kuz/Porzingis as the starters.

This is going to be the most important thread and storyline on the forum this year (again, my opinion) as we try to understand how Wes utilizes the talent he has against the assets that Tommy provided against developing the young talent.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#473 » by NatP4 » Tue Jul 5, 2022 6:28 pm

It’s been pretty clear for awhile now that Wes is blind when it comes to Kuzma. Played the guy like he was a star last year in terms of usage and minutes. He shouldn’t block any of Avdija, Davis, or Kispert from playing time. He really shouldn’t even block Rui. We need to see what we have in Rui one last time.

You HAVE to move Kuzma before the season starts. It’s a no brainer.

Basic framework of a rotation is Morris/Wright/Davis/Beal as ball handlers, Barton/Avdija/Kispert/Rui as wings, and Porzingis/Gafford at the 5.

You don’t really need/want Barton, but he’s a nice placeholder until Davis is ready to takeover and Kispert shows he’s a quality starter. You can never have too many wings and Barton is on a reasonable expiring contract.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#474 » by NatP4 » Tue Jul 5, 2022 6:40 pm

By mid season, it would be nice to see the 2/3/4 play out like this IMO:

2: Beal 32 Davis 16
3: Kispert 28 Davis 8 Avdija 12
4: Avdija 18 Rui 20

Kispert/Beal/Davis will be interchangeable at the 2/3.

The 1&5 spots are pretty set. Give Carey&Dotson playing time when injuries inevitably happen.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#475 » by dckingsfan » Wed Jul 6, 2022 3:00 pm

deneem4 wrote:Deni
Beal
Kuzma
Rui
Porzingis

Have a deep bench…

I actually like this a lot - and would love to see some minutes there. It is a swing for the fences when you know if you don't you are the 9th or 10th seed at best.

But Wes is a small ball guy (IMO)... so there is that.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#476 » by WallToWall » Wed Jul 6, 2022 4:46 pm

Unless there is a plan to do something creative with our plethora of forwards, our roster as it stands is unbalanced. We have made incremental upgrades at PG, backup PG, and picked up a backup F.
Our initial lineups for the first few games could be:
Wright/Morris 46 depending on the game, Beal 2
Beal 30 Kispert 13 Davis 5
Avdija 20 Barton 20 Kispert 8
Kuzma 20 Hachimura 20 Barton 6 Avdija 2
KP 24 Gafford 18 Kuzma 6

We have two centers that are often injured or unable to play for whatever reason. It should be a position of concern.
Beal will provide 25ppg, Kispert 10ppg, Avdija 10ppg, Barton 10ppg, Hachimura 12 ppg, Kuzma 20ppg, KP 20 ppg. Defensively, I dont know how this team looks. Maybe the sum of the parts is greater than the individual parts themselves. We really REALLY need one of Avdija, Hachimura, or Kispert to take it to another level. That would change the distribution of time allocations, in addition to giving this team (and fans) some hope, and something for which to cheer.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#477 » by Frichuela » Wed Jul 6, 2022 7:20 pm

Maybe there is hope that if Barton is considered a SG he plays with the bench unit. This would mean that possibly Deni or Rui start at SF..

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#478 » by Frichuela » Wed Jul 6, 2022 7:36 pm

If I was Wes, my rotation and (average) minutes split would be as follows:

Morris (24)/Wright (18)/Beal (6)
Beal (26)/Barton (12)/Davis (10)
Deni (28)/Barton (10)/Kispert (10)
Kuzma (26)/Rui (22)
Porzinga (28)/Gafford (20)

This hinges on Deni getting his 3 pt shooting to reasonable percentages (36-38%). The idea would be to play 28 minutes minimum with 3 guys over 6’8” for defensive purposes, particularly when 6’2” Morris is on court. I’d try to get Davis and Kispert as many enough minutes as possible but the glut at SG/SF/PF is a challenge…
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#479 » by dckingsfan » Wed Jul 6, 2022 8:05 pm

Frichuela wrote:If I was Wes, my rotation and (average) minutes split would be as follows:

Morris (24)/Wright (18)/Beal (6)
Beal (26)/Barton (12)/Davis (10)
Deni (28)/Barton (10)/Kispert (10)
Kuzma (26)/Rui (22)
Porzinga (28)/Gafford (20)

This hinges on Deni getting his 3 pt shooting to reasonable percentages (36-38%). The idea would be to play 28 minutes minimum with 3 guys over 6’8” for defensive purposes, particularly when 6’2” Morris is on court. I’d try to get Davis and Kispert as many enough minutes as possible but the glut at SG/SF/PF is a challenge…

I don't dislike your rotation. What do you think Wes' actual rotation will look like?
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#480 » by Frichuela » Wed Jul 6, 2022 8:30 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Frichuela wrote:If I was Wes, my rotation and (average) minutes split would be as follows:

Morris (24)/Wright (18)/Beal (6)
Beal (26)/Barton (12)/Davis (10)
Deni (28)/Barton (10)/Kispert (10)
Kuzma (26)/Rui (22)
Porzinga (28)/Gafford (20)

This hinges on Deni getting his 3 pt shooting to reasonable percentages (36-38%). The idea would be to play 28 minutes minimum with 3 guys over 6’8” for defensive purposes, particularly when 6’2” Morris is on court. I’d try to get Davis and Kispert as many enough minutes as possible but the glut at SG/SF/PF is a challenge…

I don't dislike your rotation. What do you think Wes' actual rotation will look like?


I fear the following:

Morris (28)/Wright (20)
Beal (34)/Barton (10)/Wright (4)
Barton (22)/Deni (18)/Kispert (8)
Kuzma (32)/Rui (16)
Porzinga (30)/Gafford (18)

With Davis DNP most games…and 3-guard line-ups galore :banghead: :banghead:

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