Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

[fishercob]

How great would it be to have a 25 year old Wall in his prime AND a high lotto pick?  And we could start scouting 8th graders now for the '16 draft which has been barelyawake's plan all along!

I think you guys are both undervaluing Young and Blatche.  

If the Wizards had Carmelo with Wall and McGee they would be competitive IMO.

fisher, the Bobcatsvhave won 4 straight and are 6-2 under Silas.  It is no fluke IMO.  What it is is they got rid of a coach who was living on his past glory, taking the joy out of the game, keeping certain players like Henderson and Thomas on the bench, and that coach could not or would not adjust.  The new coach has a different mindset.  He's got them playing freely and he's figured out his team gets offense fr defense.

That's one way to look at it. One could also observe that they have beaten Detroit, Cleveland, Minnesota, our Wizards, and Memphis for 5 of those 6 wins. The Chicago win is nice for sure. But the Bobs are not a good team. Like a dozen teams before them, they reached the tune out point with Larry Brown and are happy for the moment. We'll see how things go when they lose 4 or 5 in a row. Silas is 68 and has a career .473 win percentage. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were a Bobs fan.

I understand that you are convinced that Flip is a terrible coach and that he's the reason for the Wizards poor record. I know you well enough that I won't waste my time trying to tell you otherwise.

CCJ, the Bobs have now lost three straight. I feel fairly confident that they're a crappy team and will remain one for some time. They have a dearth of talent and not a lot of readily available avenues to add it.

Now, as to trading Nick for that pick, it's hard for me to maintain the position that that's the right move when he keeps playing like this. I'm still highly uncomfortable with Nick has a "foxhole" guy, but if we can extend him for a reasonable deal I guess you gotta do it. I still would quietly shop him pre deadline and see if you can find someone to overpay.

[Illuminaire]

Yeah, it's becoming difficult to judge Nick's value. Strong, solid, no frills defense paired with efficient, volume offense is a combination every team would love to have. Today they put Ak47 on Nick in crunch time because Utah was that freaked out by his scoring ability - that's very telling, to me.

If Nick develops some consistency on the road then I don't think we can afford to trade him. He would be a super-roleplayer, kind of a bizarro Battier - which is completely screwing with my mind just thinking about it.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think you guys are both undervaluing Young and Blatche.  

If the Wizards had Carmelo with Wall and McGee they would be competitive IMO.

fisher, the Bobcatsvhave won 4 straight and are 6-2 under Silas.  It is no fluke IMO.  What it is is they got rid of a coach who was living on his past glory, taking the joy out of the game, keeping certain players like Henderson and Thomas on the bench, and that coach could not or would not adjust.  The new coach has a different mindset.  He's got them playing freely and he's figured out his team gets offense fr defense.

That's one way to look at it. One could also observe that they have beaten Detroit, Cleveland, Minnesota, our Wizards, and Memphis for 5 of those 6 wins. The Chicago win is nice for sure. But the Bobs are not a good team. Like a dozen teams before them, they reached the tune out point with Larry Brown and are happy for the moment. We'll see how things go when they lose 4 or 5 in a row. Silas is 68 and has a career .473 win percentage. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were a Bobs fan.

I understand that you are convinced that Flip is a terrible coach and that he's the reason for the Wizards poor record. I know you well enough that I won't waste my time trying to tell you otherwise.

CCJ, the Bobs have now lost three straight. I feel fairly confident that they're a crappy team and will remain one for some time. They have a dearth of talent and not a lot of readily available avenues to add it.

Now, as to trading Nick for that pick, it's hard for me to maintain the position that that's the right move when he keeps playing like this. I'm still highly uncomfortable with Nick has a "foxhole" guy, but if we can extend him for a reasonable deal I guess you gotta do it. I still would quietly shop him pre deadline and see if you can find someone to overpay.

fish, I think Charlotte played better with Tyrus Thomas getting heavy minute. With Wallace and Jackson playing the Bobcats don't have the same defensive intensity or unselfishness. With their stars back I'm also hearing less about Henderson and McGuire. Last, DJ Augustine is a little bit injured. He's not draining as many threes I don't think.

Time will tell how much difference Silas made. Even losing three straight he's still 6-6 as coach IIRC.

[tontoz]

Yeah, it's becoming difficult to judge Nick's value. Strong, solid, no frills defense paired with efficient, volume offense is a combination every team would love to have. Today they put Ak47 on Nick in crunch time because Utah was that freaked out by his scoring ability - that's very telling, to me.

That was because Flip went to the 3 guard lineup and had Nick at the 3. Stupid move. With Rashard and Thornton healthy and playing well the 3 guard lineup needs to go away.

[Illuminaire]

Good point, there. I'd forgotten Nick was playing the three at that point.

I'm not sure Thornton should be used as positive argument for a lineup, though. The guy has one good game in three. Maybe. (And no, merely going 3-5 or 4-4 in limited minutes does not count as a good game if he's making stupid turnovers and playing terrible defense) =p

Rashard is, of course, fantastic for us at the three and I also hope for the death of our current 3-guard array. I don't mind it in theory, if you have a true SG/SF hybrid to throw in as the third guard - Andre Iguodala, for instance - but our particular mix of guards do a poor job when moved out of their natural position.

[nate33]

The three guard lineup is used late in games when we're trying to spread the floor on offense and also when we want to make our free throws. It makes sense when we're talking about a lineup with Nick at the 3, Lewis at the 4 and Blatche at the 5. It's a useful strategy to run out the clock. We can isolate Wall, have him run down the clock and just let him work one-on-one. I think he's better at that than running a high screen with McGee.

According to 82games.com, the lineup of Wall, Hinrich, Young, Lewis and Blatche had only been tried for a total of 11 minutes (through January 6th). We'll have to wait for their update on the data to get a better feel for how it works.

Indeed, I think the complaints about the 3-guard lineup are way overblown. Flip hasn't really used it at all since the trade. Through January 6th, Young has only played a total of 23 minutes at SF in lineups that didn't involve Gilbert Arenas.

[clancy]

Indeed, I think the complaints about the 3-guard lineup are way overblown. Flip hasn't really used it at all since the trade. Through January 6th, Young has only played a total of 23 minutes at SF in lineups that didn't involve Gilbert Arenas.

It's kind of funny how people seem to notice it only when it doesn't work - a lineup with John, Kirk, and Nick was +7 in the 2nd quarter.

[Ruzious]

Indeed, I think the complaints about the 3-guard lineup are way overblown. Flip hasn't really used it at all since the trade. Through January 6th, Young has only played a total of 23 minutes at SF in lineups that didn't involve Gilbert Arenas.

It's kind of funny how people seem to notice it only when it doesn't work - a lineup with John, Kirk, and Nick was +7 in the 2nd quarter.

Yeah, they have used those 3 together on several occasions the last several games. I've mostly noticed it in 4th quarters, but like you said - it's been other times as well.

[tontoz]

Good point, there. I'd forgotten Nick was playing the three at that point.

I'm not sure Thornton should be used as positive argument for a lineup, though. The guy has one good game in three. Maybe. (And no, merely going 3-5 or 4-4 in limited minutes does not count as a good game if he's making stupid turnovers and playing terrible defense) =p

Rashard is, of course, fantastic for us at the three and I also hope for the death of our current 3-guard array. I don't mind it in theory, if you have a true SG/SF hybrid to throw in as the third guard - Andre Iguodala, for instance - but our particular mix of guards do a poor job when moved out of their natural position.

Over his last 5 games Thornton is averaging 10/4.6 in 23 minutes shooting 62% from the field with 1.2 turnovers per game. On the season the defense gives up 4.3 fewer ppg when Thorton is playing. If you expect more than that from a backup 3 then i think your expectations might be a bit too high.

Since Nick relies heavily on jumpers I don't think it is a good idea to have him shooting over guys like AK. Hinrich is not very effective at the 2 either. the 3 guard lineup makes no sense right now with Lewis and Thornton both healthy and playing well.

They had an 8 point lead with 2:33 left when Hinrich came in for McGee. A minute later the lead was down to 3. It was also the 3 guard lineup that got clowned in the 4th against Philly.

[tontoz]

Indeed, I think the complaints about the 3-guard lineup are way overblown. Flip hasn't really used it at all since the trade. Through January 6th, Young has only played a total of 23 minutes at SF in lineups that didn't involve Gilbert Arenas.

It's kind of funny how people seem to notice it only when it doesn't work - a lineup with John, Kirk, and Nick was +7 in the 2nd quarter.

it isn't as big of a problem playing against backups. Playing against starters in crunch time is a different story. There aren't too many bench players in the game in the last 5 minutes of a tight game.

[theboomking]

NY was definitely a focal point of the Utah defense, and he still came through. Nick's stat lines have also looked more impressive recently with regards to assists and rebounds. My only complaint about NY this year is that he is mentally soft. If he can ever start performing close to as well on the road as he does at home, and cut out the stupid celebrations, I'd be thrilled.

As previously pointed out, Nick is a good defender that can score efficiently. He will be in demand. The problem for us is, that he also is a very good complement to Wall. He defends, doesn't require the ball in his hands a lot, can stretch the defense with excellent outside range and is a very good catch and shoot player. The only thing that would make him a better fit with Wall would be if NY was better in transition. As good a jumper as he is, you'd think that we'd see him running down the floor with Wall and finishing at the rim. In any case, I don't think there is any way we trade Nick.

Now I wouldn't mind trading Hinrich, if we could get value. Sure, he is a good on ball defender, but Kirk is 29yo and has a big contract which is expiring in 2 years. To think that he is going to be around when we are actually good is foolish. I'd consider trying to move Kirk for a quality younger player. We might be able use Kirk as a tool to pry away Mayo, who is not nearly the defender or distributor that Kirk is, but is much younger and could be a great scorer off the bench.

[no D in Hibachi]

^
I'd rather trade Hinny for Tony Allen. Mayo's a chump and one of the most overrated players in the last decade. Allen is a great defender and good in transition.

[Rafael122]

At this point, I don't even know what we would get in return for Kirk Hinrich. I'd probably ask for a 1st rounder and depending on the team, unprotected or certain protection on it.

BTW, I'm basing this over the WT Article. I wouldn't take back any long term salary though.

[LyricalRico]

Hinrich+Blatche+Yi

to Memphis for

Z-Bo, Allen, and General Greivis

TRADE ID 5815635

Memphis does it to remain competitive while keeping longterm costs down. We rent Randolph for a run at the 8th spot this year and clear our cap to be the #1 player in the new CBA. We would also be a Nick Young signing away from solidifying our complete backcourt.

McGee/Seraphin
Randolph/Booker
Lewis/Thornton
Young/Allen
Wall/Vasquez

[fishercob]

I've thought about proposing something similar, Rico. Bottom line, I really don't want to be in the Zach Randolph business. And Kip+Blatche are worth more than expirings if we were to let Z-Bo walk.

[old rem]

I can see DET being interested in Blatche, but we really don't have a need for Prince now that Lewis is here. Maybe a 3-way? Not sure with who, though.

What you should try to do is get Detroit's 2012 pick - unprotected. Try to rob them: Blatche and Stretch for Daye (or Jerebko) and Wilcox (filler) and their 2012 1st rounder (ok, top 5 protected to be somewhat realistic. Or if it is top 5, we have the option to switch our pick for their's).

IMO, the only way you can even remotely come close to getting our 1st rounder is to take all out bad contract off our hands for Blatche and expirings.

Nobody can eat all those contracts.

[dangermouse]

I think we'll see a trade of Col. Klink Hinrich similar to the Antawn trade (unless he is packaged with another player). A pick 25-30 and an expiring or two.

[no D in Hibachi]

I think Hinrich's trade value is greater than Jamison's, but I you're probably right about the potential return, dangermouse. Looking back a year ago it's absolutely amazing the Wiz were able to dump Jamison for expirings...Cleveland was so incredibly stupid.

[fishercob]

Would you trade Kris Hinrich for Andris Biedrins, straight up?

Beans has had some injuries and so his production is down. But he's still just a baby. $9M a year for 3 more years after this one eats in future cap flexibility. But it's no albatross. He'd be movable. He'd crowd the frontcourt a bit. I doubt you could play him with McGee -- not enough skill.

Eh, I probably would pass.

Good talk.

[Benjammin]

Would you trade Kris Hinrich for Andris Biedrins, straight up?

Beans has had some injuries and so his production is down. But he's still just a baby. $9M a year for 3 more years after this one eats in future cap flexibility. But it's no albatross. He'd be movable. He'd crowd the frontcourt a bit. I doubt you could play him with McGee -- not enough skill.

Eh, I probably would pass.

Good talk.

I'm glad your post was so interesting to you.