The Javale McGee Appreciation Thread

[Ruzious]

People talk about Howard not having low post moves, but it's irrrelevant. He commands a double team from every team except the Celtics. When he gets the ball down low, he usually scores and/or gets fouled (and misses the foul shots). If he can bully people with strength and athleticism, why should he bother with low post moves? What he should do is develop into a better passer for when he's triple-teamed.

And since when is Howard a mediocre low post defender? He's been it (as is Gortat when he's relieving Howard) for front court defense for Orlando.

[Illuminaire]

I think you inadvertently made the point of why Howard needs post moves, Ruz - he can't hit free throws. That means that at the end of games, he cannot be an offensive option... he isn't skilled enough to score against the really good defenses, and the mediocre ones can just foul him. Howard really hurts the Magic's offense at the end of games.

I agree that he should work on his recognition and passing skills though. That's an excellent point.

[Ruzious]

I think you inadvertently made the point of why Howard needs post moves, Ruz - he can't hit free throws. That means that at the end of games, he cannot be an offensive option... he isn't skilled enough to score against the really good defenses, and the mediocre ones can just foul him. Howard really hurts the Magic's offense at the end of games.

I agree that he should work on his recognition and passing skills though. That's an excellent point.

Or he could just become a better foul shooter - which shouldn't be very difficult.

But they used to say that about Shaq. Granted, Shaq was an all-time great - more dominant and bigger and better than Howard, but Orlando... look at the roster they've had the last couple of seasons - Without Howard, they'd have been a very bad team, and with him they went to an NBA Championship finals. Imo, he's been a legit MVP candidate the last 2 seasons - supposedly without post moves and supposedly with mediocre post defense.

[WizarDynasty]

What we need from McGee is bulk so that he can hold his position and actually consistently grab defensive rebounds.
Right now, all mcgee does is let stronger players push him out of position for offensive rebounds and he doesn't even fight to maintain position if he has good position.
Right now mcgee is like rotted out tree that break in half and comes crashing to the soil whenever any pressure is applied.
McGee is so bad that he doesn't even fight for to maintain good rebounding position when he actually has it.
McGee looks to steal defensive rebounds by jumping over someone's back as opposed to pushing carving out space with the little strength he has. What's worrisome about mcgee is that he has been here close to three years shows no sign significant bulk gains in the quads or gluts and he still has horrible high center of gravity when carving out space. his ability to not lower his center gravity shows his lack of athleticism.
his athleticism is basically that he has coordinated hands and arms and once he gets his feet under him, he can leap.
Other than that, McGee is a pretty below average athlete. He has extremely long arms and big hands but that's not considered athleticism.
his ability to jump straight up is his only real athletic gift. Everything else about McGee is pretty unathletic.
Compared to Haywood, McGee is athletic but haywood is an extremely unathletic bigman as well.
For the McGee to be so unathletic and uncoordinated outside of catching alley hoops, you would think that he would have decided to at least boost his overall strength.
i am just curious as to what this board thinks mcgee's athleticism is outside of his ability to jump and catch alleyhoops. his coordination in the post is pretty horrible, he has horrible footwork, doesn't have foot strength to stop his momemtum when dribbling the ball to the basket. McGee is like a poor mans dalembert and even dalembert with his skinny frame fought for position on defensive rebounds.
Again, is McGee closer to Dalembert or Patrick Ewing?

[Illuminaire]

But they used to say that about Shaq. Granted, Shaq was an all-time great - more dominant and bigger and better than Howard, but Orlando... look at the roster they've had the last couple of seasons - Without Howard, they'd have been a very bad team, and with him they went to an NBA Championship finals. Imo, he's been a legit MVP candidate the last 2 seasons - supposedly without post moves and supposedly with mediocre post defense.

You know, it's kind of odd to me how few big men do improve their FT shooting. Even Haywood's much vaunted improvement only lasted a single season, and may have just been a fluke. I'd love to see a statistical analysis of just how many players do manage to improve their FT shooting, and how much.

As for Howard's impact, he certainly does make a big one. He is incredibly imposing in the paint on both ends of the floor. I only meant to say that he IS limited offensively, and his limitations are a big part of why Orlando has not been able to win a championship. I love to see truly great players, and I think he's keeping himself out of that conversation by not working hard to become a better post player. (The free throw thing wouldn't hurt either )


WizD - I think you're right about McGee's overall athleticism. A lot of that seems to be from lack of proper conditioning and NBA-quality training to me. He should have better core strength by now. I hope he puts in the effort (and gets the help/guidance to succeed) because if he did improve his overall athletic ability, stamina, and sharpen his footwork... watch out, world!

[doclinkin]

What we need from McGee is bulk so that he can hold his position and actually consistently grab defensive rebounds.
Right now, all mcgee does is let stronger players push him out of position for offensive rebounds and he doesn't even fight to maintain position if he has good position.
Right now mcgee is like rotted out tree that break in half and comes crashing to the soil whenever any pressure is applied.
McGee is so bad that he doesn't even fight for to maintain good rebounding position when he actually has it.
McGee looks to steal defensive rebounds by jumping over someone's back as opposed to pushing carving out space with the little strength he has. What's worrisome about mcgee is that he has been here close to three years shows no sign significant bulk gains in the quads or gluts and he still has horrible high center of gravity when carving out space. his ability to not lower his center gravity shows his lack of athleticism.
his athleticism is basically that he has coordinated hands and arms and once he gets his feet under him, he can leap.
Other than that, McGee is a pretty below average athlete. He has extremely long arms and big hands but that's not considered athleticism.
his ability to jump straight up is his only real athletic gift. Everything else about McGee is pretty unathletic.
Compared to Haywood, McGee is athletic but haywood is an extremely unathletic bigman as well.
For the McGee to be so unathletic and uncoordinated outside of catching alley hoops, you would think that he would have decided to at least boost his overall strength.
i am just curious as to what this board thinks mcgee's athleticism is outside of his ability to jump and catch alleyhoops. his coordination in the post is pretty horrible, he has horrible footwork, doesn't have foot strength to stop his momemtum when dribbling the ball to the basket. McGee is like a poor mans dalembert and even dalembert with his skinny frame fought for position on defensive rebounds.
Again, is McGee closer to Dalembert or Patrick Ewing?

Off-kilter as usual. McGee is highly coordinated and athletic for a player that long. Quick on his feet, quick off his feet, agile, strong despite his lankyness good body control for someone so big.

Problem is he relies on that raw athleticism since up to now that's what has worked for him, he learned no low-post fundamentals, he's still trying to use those perimeter skills. It takes no special athleticism to hold your ground in the post, it takes a strong foundation (big rump) low center of gravity. Players who are able to root themselves and set into their stance do well, players like JV who play on their toes ready to jump for a board will tend to get bounced off their spot. Consider players like Wes Unseld. No one would have called him the most athletic player in the game in any contest, he was strong, sure, but not strictly nimble and quick footed. But he had powerful lower body strength, huge thighs, thick trunk. Nobody was moving him once he had position.

JaVale's problems are pretty basic. He never boxes out, never gets good position, because at the lower level he never needed to, and his high center of gravity has always meant he's vulnerable to being toppled. Pretty simple fix though, as he develops upperbody strength he'll be able to deflect shots even without jumping, and in the post he just needs to bend his knees a little, not play on his tippy toes ready to jump, but instead to put his rear on someone keep a wide stance and pin them behind him. If they shove: flop, refs are bound to call it since you're a very visible target.

He's just in love with blocking shots since he's the only player in the game who can legally block a teardrop or three point shot at the apex of it's arc. Refs call it goaltending, but replay invariably shows that he tapped it at the top, not on the way down. They're just not used to seeing it happen, expect it's impossible. For most people it is.

Still, since they call it, and since it's a risky play, and once you leave the post to block a shot there's a wide open alley to attack, it's a low-percentage trick, not worth trying all that often. The smarter play would be to stay within one long step of the basket and deter the drive with your standing reach alone. Let the perimeter players worry about the exterior defense. IF JaVale had kept to that rule he'd be in Turkey right now, backing up Tyson.

His athleticism is not the issue, it's bad habits almost entirely. And a bit of a swell head. He'd prefer to do his own thing rather than listen to coaching. Fortunately immaturity is one of the few shortcomings that can be overcome with a little effort and time. And as he gains mass he won't jump as much nor as high, but with greater armstrength will be able to snuff players while staying on his feet. I suspect he'll like the bully role once he finally grows into his frame. Understand, kid is still growing, you can't build real mass while your calories are being converted to height not muscle. He'll get there. I just hope to re-up him early since true Bigs take a while to develop, maybe we can resign him at a reasonable longterm deal based on his early (under-optimal) production rather than his probable eventual peak output.

I suspect he'll enjoy playing with John Wall though. Maybe enough to ink-up early to ensure his spot.

[Hoopalotta]

He's just in love with blocking shots since he's the only player in the game who can legally block a teardrop or three point shot at the apex of it's arc. Refs call it goaltending, but replay invariably shows that he tapped it at the top, not on the way down. They're just not used to seeing it happen, expect it's impossible. For most people it is.

Still, since they call it, and since it's a risky play, and once you leave the post to block a shot there's a wide open alley to attack, it's a low-percentage trick, not worth trying all that often. The smarter play would be to stay within one long step of the basket and deter the drive with your standing reach alone. Let the perimeter players worry about the exterior defense. IF JaVale had kept to that rule he'd be in Turkey right now, backing up Tyson.

This has gotta be 1A on the "Javale's gotta start..." list. I've heard it said that he makes slow reads, but I think it's more that he makes wrong reads where his assessment of impending menace zeros in on some rather precarious threats which he then goes all out to challenge while leaving much more ruinous options unimpeded. Case in point: the above jump shot counter measures.

So, probably better to just go ahead and let Stuckey take that off balance 16' floater going left and get in position for the carom rather than to go at him in a dive bomber run and leave Ben Wallace in the cherry-picker slot. If he were to just measure the percentages better in that type scenario, he'd probably be about 20% more effective as a defender statistically speaking. Not much by way of positives transpires when he roams out to 20 feet or so and has to backpedal either. There's a few things like that which need to be worked out.

Still, I think the criticisms around here go a bit far. He's pretty respectable picking up penetrators with there being games in which he's altered upwards of 15 shots in about 24 minutes or so. It's not that he's bad in each and every instance on that end. He's just conspicuous being a 21 year old center with defensive responsibilities that he's not ready for.

[Illuminaire]

Off-kilter as usual. McGee is highly coordinated and athletic for a player that long. Quick on his feet, quick off his feet, agile, strong despite his lankyness good body control for someone so big.

Maybe I'm looking too hard for problems (an issue that seems to grow with every failed Wizards season ) but I'm not as sold on his overall athleticism. He seems to suffer from a lack of strength in several areas. His coordination looks smooth when he's moving towards the basket, but he seems to get himself out of sorts when trying to pivot or spin in the paint.

I don't know. McGee perplexes me. I can't figure him out, maybe I should stop trying.

[hands11]

Look what DX's Jonathon Givony Tweeted last night from something called the Real Run Championship:

JaVale McGee is an absolute freak of nature. Body looks amazing. So talented. He's going to have a monster year if he stays focused.

Stays focused on what precisely though? He is an absolute freak of nature, and some of the things he's flashed on offense during summerleague play where stunning for a guy his size.

The main problem I have with McGee though is that we don't need him to be a scorer. Javale would be considerably more valuable to this franchise if he spent his energy trying to fight guys on the blocks, boxing out to get rebounds, and just generally hustling and being the glue guy on defense.

I haven't seen anything that suggests that he can be that guy, and that's what I find so disappointing about him up to this point.

Well, finally the reality of McGee is starting to find the minds of more RMG members. Your right. This is not who he is. I have said for a long time now that what I see in him is a player who want to be more in the mold of a Dray then a true center. He is offensive minded. What he does with the most dedication is run the court. And when he has the ball, he is always looking to score be it a outside shot, a drive or whatever.

Could he be molded into a center who can defend? Maybe. But it would be easier to mold him into a PF like Dray. Like I said when they were doing this to Dray, make him a PF first, and then let him become a center as he gets older.

Problem is what is has been for a long time here. We are looking for centers. And until we find a starter of Haywoods quality and a decent back up, we are going to keep trying to turn players like Dray and McGee into centers because they are tall.

McGee as a PF could actually become a total freak. But if we insist on him playing center, its going to have to be a center how is a viable scoring option who doesn't defend well. That can be entertaining, but I don't think it is what most of us are looking for in the long run.

Hopefully Seraphin ends up developing into one option as a solid center. Dray is always an option down there when needed. But this is still the position we need to fill. We have two young guys who we need to see what they can do and we will likely add more options when ever the opportunity presents itself.

As for now, looks like we are developing several hybrid options. That could work well enough. We will have to see.

[hands11]

Off-kilter as usual. McGee is highly coordinated and athletic for a player that long. Quick on his feet, quick off his feet, agile, strong despite his lankyness good body control for someone so big.

Maybe I'm looking too hard for problems (an issue that seems to grow with every failed Wizards season ) but I'm not as sold on his overall athleticism. He seems to suffer from a lack of strength in several areas. His coordination looks smooth when he's moving towards the basket, but he seems to get himself out of sorts when trying to pivot or spin in the paint.

I don't know. McGee perplexes me. I can't figure him out, maybe I should stop trying.

What is left to figure out ?

He is a freak athlete who is very young 22 and 7-1 because he was still growing after we got him. And at that age and height he is still stuck on the idea that her should be able to block everyone. He has Birdman mentality without the wisdom.

He has only played only two year and been invited to try out for Team USA twice now and didnt make it because he isn't ready yet.

He wants to be a unique talent that breaks the mold at PF but he is being asked to play center where he was to thin and inexperienced to defend. So he added 7 pounds of muscle.

He played one year for a coach that got fired then played for a temp coach.

He played another year for his new coach in a season where everything went crazy with Gil and then the team lost its vet including the only true center they had.

Now he is coming into his third year on a team with a vet coach and Sam coming into their second year on a team with a great new owner. This is as stable an environment as he has seen. He put in a good summer. He should make some improvements

Thats pretty much it. Nothing really wrong with McGee at all considering who he was and what he dealt with and how young and tall him is. Worst thing for him is the fact there my be a lock out next year just when he would really be coming around.

Just will make plenty of highlights this year and he will make plenty of mistakes. It is what it is.

[pancakes3]

Off-kilter as usual. McGee is highly coordinated and athletic for a player that long. Quick on his feet, quick off his feet, agile, strong despite his lankyness good body control for someone so big.

Maybe I'm looking too hard for problems (an issue that seems to grow with every failed Wizards season ) but I'm not as sold on his overall athleticism. He seems to suffer from a lack of strength in several areas. His coordination looks smooth when he's moving towards the basket, but he seems to get himself out of sorts when trying to pivot or spin in the paint.

I don't know. McGee perplexes me. I can't figure him out, maybe I should stop trying.

with the offseason bulk added he looks no smaller than a college/rookie david robinson. he doesn't have the classic heft of a Shaq, or the otherworldly quicks of a hakeem but he sure can run and jump just like the admiral.

also, as to what workouts javale should concentrate on? mcgee is mcgee. his athleticism is in his DNA and whatever drills, exercises, etc. put in will ultimately only help him get better at what he already does well. he can eat bacon 3 meals a day and do squats until his knees buckle but he's NOT going to pack on the a$$weight, no way.

and to hands & co. who want to put mcgee at PF? screw that. post defense is post defense. you man up on your guy, you don't chase down blocks, you stick your arms up, and in his mind an altered shot + rebound should be as good if not better than a block anyway. someone needs to get full metal jacket on him and scream this to him. it'll get really aggravating if this season we're watching a 3rd year PRO making JV mistakes (no pun intended).

[hands11]

Your reading what I writing wrong.

I'm not saying I want him to be a PF. I'm saying he wants to be one and that his game and body also don't fit with what we need at center.

And you actually make a good point about him never adding that rss weight.

I wonder how many great defensive center there are out there who don't have good rss weight.

Seraphin, Dray and Armstrong are all stronger waist down then McGee.

That's why you saw us playing DSong, Singleton, etc at center over McGee. He can't hold his position.

[Hoopalotta]

Interestingly, outside of the NBA Pivot slot, "good rss weight" is a less-is-more kind of thing.

I hereby dub this NBA-centric reverse principle "The Mahornian Paradigm".

[doclinkin]

Interestingly, outside of the NBA Pivot slot, "good rss weight" is a less-is-more kind of thing.

I beg to differ, as does Sir Mix-a-lot, Mike Epps, LyricalRico...

[Hoopalotta]

I suppose I've just been in Asia too long then.....not really a place for celebrating the hind quarters. If there's bump in the trunk, it's probably due to father time's influence and it's a package deal with bump in a whole lot of other places too.

[montestewart]

More meat on the seat, more whale on the tail, on court or off, fill up the pail…Javale

[doclinkin]

More meat on the seat, more whale on the tail, on court or off, fill up the pail…Javale

Take that to the appropriate thread.

(Now quoted.)

[dangermouse]

I saw on Wiretap that what's his name G'town C playing in IND
worked with Walton all summer. Bird was going to line up
either Walton, McHale or ....some other former great big.

I'd say bring in Coach Thompson or Bill Russell and teach
McGee def fundamentals for 3 months straight. If he
could absorb even a modicum of what those guys know,
he would be a top 5 C.

For the moment, I'll be pleased to simply see him not
bite on the first pump fake that a smaller player that
he doesn't even have to jump to defend, gives him.

The problem there is the game has changed so much since their time - with defensive 3 seconds, no hand-checking rules, centers no longer strictly playing with their backs to the basket, playing farther away from the basket, zone defenses permitted, etc.

If they can both come in and just teach him how to box out it will be money well spent.

[hands11]

http://www.nbadraftanalysis.com/javale-mcgee.html

http://www.nba.com/wizards/news/mcgee18_080626.html

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/JaVale-McGee-1197/

STRENGTHS:
- Excellent skill-level
- Ability to face the basket
- Excellent hands
- Shot-blocking skills
- Shot-blocking tools
- Huge upside
- Late bloomer
- Work ethic
- Ability to run the floor
- Athleticism
- Excellent wingspan
- Fluidity
- Physical specimen
- Size for position
- Solid frame
- 3-point range

WEAKNESSES:
- Decision making
- Shot-selection
- Footwork/Post-moves
- Left hand
- Atrocious defender
- Gets backed down in post
- Avoids contact
- Basketball IQ
- Experience
- Fundamentals
- High bust potential?
- Mental/Physical toughness?

Recent Tweets
JaVale McGee is an absolute freak of nature. Body looks amazing. So talented. He's going to have a monster year if he stays focused.
2010-08-26 21:28:37

[pancakes3]

the "work ethic" positive and the "shoddy fundamentals" negative seem to be contradictory, especially since a) his mom was a pro, and b) he's had 3 PRO off-seasons to improve.