Wizards Summer League 2013 - Mini Camp 8th Games July 13

[Dark Faze]

It's also important to realize the situation he's in isn't exactly ideal. Singleton is such a huge net negative nevermind all the other non-nba guys he shared the floor with.

[LyricalRico]

While obviously 2 games is not indicative of the player he is. I find it silly, people get irritated by the mere motion of discussing his struggles.

Eh, I don't think "Wow, Porter is struggling, but it is only SL so let's see what happens." posts would irritate anybody. It's the "See! See! I told you the Wizards were idiots for taking this guy! The past 2 games proves it!" posts that we're mocking.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Eh no ones calling him a bust. But his first two games have been stinkers and it's fair to discuss it.

But he's also playing out of position. I saw the first game, and this dude was attempting hook shots. And i'm sitting there wondering what the hell is going on. It would make sense to start Rice at 2, and Otto at 3 and see what happens. I get the whole idea of experimenting and see what works and what doesn't, but this combined with the fact that Ernie mentioned something about Otto being able to play the 2 is cause for concern. He's a natural 3.

Ya raf, I agree. But he's going up against talent that should be beneath him. IDK.. right now im split. While obviously 2 games is not indicative of the player he is. I find it silly, people get irritated by the mere motion of discussing his struggles.

GoG, I feel the exact same way.

I don't see anything wrong with discussion.

I'm with Raf on starting Rice at 2 and Otto at 3.

[LyricalRico]

I saw the first game, and this dude was attempting hook shots. And i'm sitting there wondering what the hell is going on. It would make sense to start Rice at 2, and Otto at 3 and see what happens. I get the whole idea of experimenting and see what works and what doesn't, but this combined with the fact that Ernie mentioned something about Otto being able to play the 2 is cause for concern. He's a natural 3.

Agreed. I'm not liking the experimentation with Porter at SG. They should be making other guys experiment to see how they fit around Porter, not the other way around. And his length almost makes me think that, if they're going to do any experimentation, it would be with him at the 4 (which you can certainly do in SL since the rosters trend smaller).

But, either way, nate put it nicely that what happens during 5 SL games has zero impact on how Porter will do in the regular season. That's all going to be determined during training camp and the regular practices. It would be nice to see better basketball being played, but even that would really only be for entertainment value.

The question I thought was would an experiment of Otto at PF go any better?

Vesely
Porter
Singleton
Rice
Anybody but Sundiata Gaines

That's the lineup I'd like to see. Let Rice/Singleton space the floor and run the offense through Porter at the elbow. Right now, they appear to be using Porter as the floor spacer, which seems odd.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

While obviously 2 games is not indicative of the player he is. I find it silly, people get irritated by the mere motion of discussing his struggles.

Eh, I don't think "Wow, Porter is struggling, but it is only SL so let's see what happens." posts would irritate anybody. It's the "See! See! I told you the Wizards were idiots for taking this guy! The past 2 games proves it!" posts that we're mocking.

I never called the Wizards idiots. Otto was a safe pick. I was relieved they didn't pick Len. Alex could turn out great, but his health and his lack of consistency concerned me. I didn't prefer Porter overall, however, on draft night. I thought Oladipo, Zeller, and trading down for either Olynyk or McCollum would have been better for the Wizards. Oladipo was off the board. However, Nerlens Noel was on the board. That was a medical consideration but a pick that if he's healthy will be way, way better than Otto. I was ecstatic Bennett went first. I think he's overrated.

Right now I feel the same way I did before the draft. Olynyk. Still, Otto is a winning ball player. Give him time.

[TGW]

Dumbest thing to do is to force a young player to do what's unnatural for them.

Porter obviously isn't comfortable in his ball-handling and slashing to play the 2. He played the 3/4 in college. let him play the 3/4 in the pros until he starts to develop that comfort.

I'm not surprised he's being forced into a role he's not comfortable in...this is typical Wizards shenanigans.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Dumbest thing to do is to force a young player to do what's unnatural for them.

Porter obviously isn't comfortable in his ball-handling and slashing to play the 2. He played the 3/4 in college. let him play the 3/4 in the pros until he starts to develop that comfort.

I'm not surprised he's being forced into a role he's not comfortable in...this is typical Wizards shenanigans.

Why do they do it? Again and again ...

If you're training a dog or trying to potty train a child, rewards go a long way. In any endeavor, positive reinforcement and building off success involves first working from a comfort zone. Identifying what someone does well and rewarding them to build confidence is just common sense, but the Wizards don't do that.

The Wizards seem to like to throw guys into duress right off the bat.

[dckingsfan]

I don't want to comment on any one player - but I will say the general organization of the offensive scheme looks pretty bad to me. I know they are just starting to work with each other and the coaches haven't had much time with them but... It seems like they could have a couple of offensive sets to execute against, no?

I am not high on Gaines but it seems like he should just be dropping the ball off to whomever we are going to run the offense through - and that isn't happening - at least not from what I have discerned.

[dckingsfan]

Dumbest thing to do is to force a young player to do what's unnatural for them.

Porter obviously isn't comfortable in his ball-handling and slashing to play the 2. He played the 3/4 in college. let him play the 3/4 in the pros until he starts to develop that comfort.

I'm not surprised he's being forced into a role he's not comfortable in...this is typical Wizards shenanigans.

Why do they do it? Again and again ...

If you're training a dog or trying to potty train a child, rewards go a long way. In any endeavor, positive reinforcement and building off success involves first working from a comfort zone. The Wizards seem to like to throw guys into duress right off the bat.

We are moving Beal to C

[The Consiglieri]

Yeah I know right, he hit the nail on the head with that one !Porter will be fine, every one needs to just calm down, and let porter get in to a grove.

Considering the Colin Cowherd love, you might want to rethink, considering he wrote off John Wall as a loser who would never win anything because of the Dougie in his first start, repeatedly referred to RG3 as a runner and not a thrower, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, and despite my love of Luck (who I still prefer to RG3 long term and always did), his analysis of the Colts versus the redskins is ludicrous. He sees the Colts winning the AFC because of the Luck factor, conveniently ignoring the metrics that he touts, when they back his arguments, and ignores when they don't (as in the Colts won a statistically unsustainable amount of close games in '12, and that their phythagorean win total was also essentially the statistically least likely and most improbable playoff run in decades). Oh, he also continues to support LeBron's "The Decision," and to misrepresent its critics as idiots who can't handle a free agent leaving a team (conveniently forgetting that fans have been coping with free agent departures for 20+ years, it's players having a 30 minute special dedicated to capturing the moment that you "take your talents to south beach (i.e. the greatest example of self-aggrandizing delusional thinking since Wall Street started crying about not being loved after destroying the economy, and then getting bonuses for it, and being paid off by the gov for it, but that's another story).

I could go on and on, I love his show because sports talk tends to be massively redundant, and sometimes completely unlistenable, while other times being monstrously tedious. His show is never either of those things, but I have a problem with his misrepresentation of himself and his arguments (picking and choosing philosophies with the pretense that that is how evaluates anything, rationally, only to abandon them when they aren't conveniently for a particular contrarian take he makes to drive up ratings.

I completely agree with you. I am not saying that he is a beacon of truth, ll i am saying is that he hit the nail on the head with this 1. he makes good points and its a good argument. I do not agree with ever word he says, but on that one topic with that one video he made a hell of a lot of sense.



I think anyone panicking over porter is just totally uncalled for. Porter just needs time to get acclimated to the NBA.

Yeah, except for when he's wrong, like with Hakeem, with Patrick, with David, with Mutombo, with Shaq, with Wallace, with Garnett, with Camby, with Duncan, with Ming, with Howard, with Monroe, with Hibbert, with Davis, with Drummond and others that were building block side pieces like Chandler, Bosh, Bogut, Aldridge, maybe Lopez, Favors, Cousins, Kantner, Sanders etc.

That's the thing that really bothers me about Colin, I suppose he's an All Pro, maybe HOF cherry picker, and just as badly, he picks up and drops philosophies depending upon the situation, and whether or not it backs his argument, conveniently dropping any that fail to do so. Ugh. It's tiresome.

The Center/big man obsession is fundamentally easy to understand, it's sort of a lighter weight version of the franchise QB obsession, if you land a legit big man, you're either going to make the playoffs consistently and auto-contend for titles (Hakeem, Patrick, David, Shaq, Duncan, Howard), you're going to need just one more piece and you will do so (Dikembe, Rasheed, Kevin, Yao, Roy Hibbert), you're going to be a near lock to make the playoffs with another legit piece (Camby, Monroe, Chandler, Bosh, Bogut, Aldridge, Lopez, Sanders), or once your guy is developed you will be doing one of the above (Chandler, Davis, Drummond, Favors, Cousins).

With that knowledge in tow, why in hell shouldn't you go all out for big? Sure he makes some arguments like Patrick O'Bryant for instance, but who on earth was selling that schlub as a franchise big man? No one I ever saw or heard from ever, and that to goes for at least half the busted big men for the last 20 years (I don't know any fans when I was graduating high school in '93 that didn't laugh hysterically at the idea that Bradley could be anything other than a freakish traffic cone in the lane but at a much higher price than Muresan. No, the truth is, like franchise QB's, you land a franchise player at Center, or even PF, and you're going to be a playoff game, if not immediately, than soon, and if you land the ulti-stud big man, you're going to be a pereniall contender for a title, even if the rest of your team is middling or worse (just look at Hakeem, Shaq and Howard in Orlando, Ewing and the NY Bricks, Robinson and then Duncan w/the Spurs, two separate big men drafted when their teams had a solitary off year and then lucked into winning the lottery and were instant title contenders following said draftees selections).

GM's aren't delusional, they recognize that hitting on one of these guys is essentially like getting a video game pass code for the last level of Metroid twenty-five years ago, you get to skip 3 or 4 of the five franchise steps necessary to make a run to a title, and perhaps even better, perennial contention.

Why wouldn't they take their shot?

That's why I saw, and see our failure to trade up for Kantner, or Valunciunas in particular in '11, our total disinterest in Drummond last year, and our grand mal stupidity this year with Noel as such catastrophically moronic thinking.

Nobody wins titles with a Euro big who can't do anything except run kind of fast and look awkward, and nobody wins titles with a nice guy hard working small forward who does nothing that can lead to in game dominance at an elite level, period (I still think Otto will become what he was always going to become, summer league be damned, the problem is, I've never thought he was going to be special period, and if there is a guy available who had a decent chance of being that, and he played a position of need, and you still passed on him? That's insanely stupid. Something the wizards do very very well).

But you do win titles with elite bigs who have the potential to dominate one or both sides of the ball, or at worst, become good to very good centers, and Valunciunas, Drummond, and Noel fit the bill in one or multiple categories there, and Kanter had potential to do so, and we passed on two of them, and failed to trade up for two of them (and likely idiotically ranked Vesely higher than either of said '11 draftees).

[TGW]

I remember when they had Jared Jeffries running the point right after he was drafted. Silliest thing I've ever seen in retrospect. The guy was a 4 in college, and then some genius in the front office thought it was okay for him to man the point in summer league to show off his "versatility."

Biggest fail ever.

[LyricalRico]

I don't want to comment on any one player - but I will say the general organization of the offensive scheme looks pretty bad to me. I know they are just starting to work with each other and the coaches haven't had much time with them but... It seems like they could have a couple of offensive sets to execute against, no?

Agree with this. Also, didn't they switch head coaches for Game 2? Cassell coached the first game and someone else coached the second? I can see having somebody different than last summer, but having someone different from game to game doesn't make sense to me.

[Dat2U]

I remember when they had Jared Jeffries running the point right after he was drafted. Silliest thing I've ever seen in retrospect. The guy was a 4 in college, and then some genius in the front office thought it was okay for him to man the point in summer league to show off his "versatility."

Biggest fail ever.

Don't forget they threw Andray Blatche at SF for his first few seasons before finally figuring out that wasn't where he belonged.

How many years did we go through Andray playing point forward, a move I criticized harshly as a complete waste of time because he had no business being there. IMO it incouraged Blatche to become too ball dominant and often he tried to do far too much with the ball in hands. He's still probably needs to unlearn some of the bad habits he picked up from that experience.

[LyricalRico]

I remember when they had Jared Jeffries running the point right after he was drafted. Silliest thing I've ever seen in retrospect. The guy was a 4 in college, and then some genius in the front office thought it was okay for him to man the point in summer league to show off his "versatility."

Biggest fail ever.

Yeah, Doug Collins was trying to turn him into Pippen-lite. LOL

For what it's worth, I actually thought that Jeffries' best stretch as a Wizard was when both Kwame and Haywood were hurt and he had to play C for a few games. Averaged near a double-double and played smart help defense IIRC. But EFJ seemed intent on making him a perimeter player because of his "versatility". Tweeners should generally play one position up, which is why I like that they are playing Vesely in the middle this summer.)

[deneem4]

Otto was playing 2 because he was too weak to take the 3s to the basket...
If we have to give otto mkg time there was no reason in drafting him...we have webster and ariza, who are in prime right now,
otto potential isnt high, right now I see him as a sefolosha...and yes sefo is starting for a contender, but is westbroom and kd, u can have a 100% pure defensive guy with those 2 on the court,
Unless beal becomes eric gordon or otto becomes, loul deng, he was a wasted pick..trade him for perry jones and a 2014 2nd rd

[Dat2U]

I don't want to comment on any one player - but I will say the general organization of the offensive scheme looks pretty bad to me. I know they are just starting to work with each other and the coaches haven't had much time with them but... It seems like they could have a couple of offensive sets to execute against, no?

Agree with this. Also, didn't they switch head coaches for Game 2? Cassell coached the first game and someone else coached the second? I can see having somebody different than last summer, but having someone different from game to game doesn't make sense to me.

Cassell has been running the offense. Newman has been running the defense.

Cassell leading the offense has been nothing short of an abject disaster. The only thing we've mastered offensively is disorganization.

I think he's clearly shown he's not ready to be a head coach anywhere at this stage.

[LyricalRico]

Don't forget they threw Andray Blatche at SF for his first few seasons before finally figuring out that wasn't where he belonged.

It wasn't a total failure. I remember Rick Kamla(sp?) of NBATV describing Blatche as a "summer league legend" one year.

But even some folks on this board were blowing the "Blatche at SF" horn for a long time. He's another guy that had his best stretch of effectiveness (maybe not stats, but actual impact) when he had to play C during a Haywood injury and had to be the 4th or 5th option on the floor.

[fishercob]

I think Cassell is a phenomenal coach for a guy that got a 700 SAT.

[The Consiglieri]

Wall is the same guy he's always been. He didn't suddenly transform into a new person in March. He came into the league the same spectacular and transcendent talent he is today, doing things nobody had done since Oscar and Magic that early in their careers. Fans just got frustrated with him because we kept losing. It really is that simple. They lost perspective. They got impatient, got knee jerk living and dying with every quarter, sunk into negativity looking for scapegoats. That's what fans do. Players don't get patience and the benefit of the doubt from fans until they win championships. But it doesn't mean fan histrionics are any sort of reflection of reality. They almost never are.

Well said. It's simply not true that Wall "sucked" his first two seasons or that Jrue Holiday and K. Irving are better players than John simply because they made an all-star game before he did. Has John struggled as a shooter and with turnovers? Absolutely. But his out-of-this-world talent (on both ends of the court) has been obvious from day one and this notion that he all of sudden "got it" last March is total nonsense.

The only major issues anyone should have had with Wall were in regards to his shooting, particularly from 3, and in regards to his turnover rate which was always too high, however, in regrads to the latter, and always undersold, your turnover rate, and your assist rate are going to be horrible if you're playing with one of the worst shooting teams in the league your first two years, and the by a huge margin, stupidest team in the league, the knucklehead, zero BBIQ, dumb, dumber, and dumbest wizards he had to play with sabotaged his first two years AND HE STILL PRODUCED. Grantland and others were right in finding flaws in what he was doing, but the context of said flaws was rarely addressed. Walls numbers were always good, and his environement was always horrible, two factors that are far too conveniently forgotten, even if we should own that he was pretty poor as a shooter until about last February as a pro.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Sam Cassell, I think I will direct some words his way. For a change, I am going to do my best to choose my words very carefully. After game one, this is what he said regarding Porter.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/7/13 ... tto-porter

"He's got to be more assertive. He's got to find some of his own offense sometimes on the court. I could run plays for him, get him shots. But if those don't work, now what?" Wizards summer league coach Sam Cassell said. "There are things he's got to do himself. He did it at Georgetown, and he can do it here."

Mike Prada and Bullets Forever surmised this after game 1:

Part of the struggles could be explained by Porter's role in the offense. As expected, the Wizards experimented with him, testing the limits of his versatility by often playing him at shooting guard. While he played over half the game at small forward as well, the difference may have contributed to Porter's relative passivity.

About Otto's role, Coach Cassell said this:

"Shooting guard. Small forward. We'll have him bring the ball up the court sometimes," Cassell said. "We're just trying to figure out the things he can do in our offense. That's why I started him at the 2 guard. Here's the thing: the 2 position and the 3 position in our offense is really the same."

More good stuff from Prada, and how Otto took game one.

Porter, for his part, acknowledged that the transition to shooting guard was "difficult," but he thinks it's something he'll eventually "be able to handle." His postgame interview seemed to indicate that he understands this is all a work in progress.

"I'm not going to beat myself up over it, but I know I can perform better next game," Porter said.

"Of course, it's your first game in the league. That's the way it is," Porter said. "You've got to go through that stage."

That is what went down game one.

Don't read the rest if you don't want a controversial take.

My OPINION: Coach Cassell, you blasted Shelvin Mack last preseason for not running the offense right. Now, you're putting Otto Porter's shortcoming on front street. How good of a coach are you? John Wall gives you high praise for helping him. I don't know.... It did take him some years.

Seems to me after game one Otto already felt a lot of stress from being asked to work outside of his comfort zone. The idea that 2 and 3 are the same seems a little dubious at best. The coach stressing that the player has got to do things for himself, because he did it at Georgetown seems real sink or swim. If that's the way you develop players, I'm concerned.

I think the real problem is that when guys can't have FUN they don't play FREE. Game two didn't get that much better for Otto. Now what?