The Javale McGee Appreciation Thread

[pancakes3]

hahaha, i hope you're not implying that mcgee's athleticism... disappears when solid objects materialize in front of him. somehow miraculously he can't run as fast, jump as high, or reach as far.

SKILLS! mcgee is lacking in SKILLS!

[Ruzious]

hahaha, i hope you're not implying that mcgee's athleticism... disappears when solid objects materialize in front of him. somehow miraculously he can't run as fast, jump as high, or reach as far.

SKILLS! mcgee is lacking in SKILLS!

Mind-reader. Yup, it's the skills that are the issues. When the best players in the world say he's the most athletic center in the NBA, chances are his athuhleticism is just fine, thank you.

[Zonkerbl]

Funny how down we are on McGee when the rest of the NBA media thinks he's going to break out this year.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... look_N.htm

Same thing with Arenas, everybody else thought he was a ballhogging black hole, we know that Gilbert Arenas makes players around him into all stars.

[Ruzious]

Funny how down we are on McGee when the rest of the NBA media thinks he's going to break out this year.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... look_N.htm

Same thing with Arenas, everybody else thought he was a ballhogging black hole, we know that Gilbert Arenas makes players around him into all stars.

This is what the article said:

If JaVale McGee continues to improve to give the Wizards a consistent presence in the middle, it's not out of the question Washington could reach the playoffs for the first time since 2008.

Ifffffffffffffffffffff.

And I think the majority of the board agrees with that.

[WizarDynasty]

hahaha, i hope you're not implying that mcgee's athleticism... disappears when solid objects materialize in front of him. somehow miraculously he can't run as fast, jump as high, or reach as far.

SKILLS! mcgee is lacking in SKILLS!

i have brainstormed and i decided not to delete what i type but after typing all, i came back to the top of the post and put this final statement.
if he isn't doesn't have elite post foot coordination ==the most important athletic attribute for an offensive powerforward, how can you consider him one of the most athletic bigmen in the league.

Foot coordination isn't a skill...its an athletic attribute. If foot coordination were a skill, why did haywood never improve in this area? Why does tyson chandler, ben wallace, and even dwight howard struggle?
Once you reach a certain age, is pretty hard to improve your coordination because a huge part of coordination is genetic. Anything that is related to genetics is an athletic attribute.
javale shows poor post foot coordination and I believe it is because he didnt' train his feet to be coordinated in the post until it was too late. had he trained when he was young and still developing his bone structure then he would have developed all muscles needed for elite post foot coordination. Since he didn't start playing in the post until a late age, he missed the window of opportunity to develop highly coordinated foot movements needed for elite post foot coordination in the post.


McGee has not shown the athletic attributes needed to score consistently when a solid object is between him and basket.

My argument is that Coordination equals athleticism.

Can McGee improve the athleticism that will help succeed with a defender between him and basket?

Right now, McGee has not consistently shown me the raw athleticism needed to beat his man one on one in a half court set consistently. =the most important athletic attribute for an offensive bigman powerforward is elite post foot coordination and mcgee has not shown in improvement in his post foot coordination since his rookie years and he is going into his third year and he is old..23.
How many years will it take him to develop a high release if ever?
How many years will it take him to develop explosive foot coordination?
How many years will it take him to bang into a stronger player and still maintain balance at execute a highly coordination shot?
Changing your shot from a forehead release to a kevin garnett release isn't going to happen in a few years.

McGee has been in the league three years and still isn't showing any of these athletic attributes. A person with high coordination picks up these SKIlLLS very quickly.
McGee's lack of athletic coordination is the reason he still hasn't picked up these skills people.
McGee has been working on guard related skills all his life but he will never be a guard, he will always be a powerforward or center.
People keep thinking that a coaches is going to teach him the coordination he needs to score when there is a man between him and the basket. People, coaches can't teach coordination.
He runs down teh court quickly but that doesn't help you in a half court set.
he jumps high, but that doesn't help you if you have a low release point on your jumper.
He has poor foot coordination in the post...do you think a coaches is going to coach his foot coordination up?
Foot coordination is something you should have been working on since you first joined basketball. The great players who were introduced to basketball at late age already had raw foot coordination because they played other sports like soccer (hakeem) (kareem=Karate). you aren't going to take a guy who never had sharp foot coordination to begin with and coach to have elite foot coordination.
If you don't see great post foot coordination in the post at age 23, you are never going to see it. i have never seen highly coordinated foot movements in the post from mcgee.

You can't call a bigman athletic the most athletic in the league, if he isn't doesn't have elite post foot coordination ==the most important athletic attribute for an offensive powerforward .at the attributes that bigmen need to be successful scoring in a half court set.
Finally, the people who are calling mcgee the most athletic bigman in the league are normally point guards that throw up alleyhopes when they are double teamed. I haven't heard any elite bigman mention McGee as the most athletic center in the league. McGee doesn't have half court bigman athleticism. He doesn't have half court bigman coordination which is skill bigman have been working on since they were children. McGee has spent his life working on guard coordination...not bigman coordination.
McGee can use his guard coordination when he has clear path to the basket but he doesn't have bigman coordination--which is used when there is a defender between him and the basket.
Calling a bigman the most athletic big in the league when he has below average half court bigman coordination is pretty backwards.
McGee doesn't have bigman coordination==which is the athleticism that really counts towards consistent wins.
McGee definitely has more Bigman coordination that Haywood...but haywood was in the bottom percentile when it came to bigman coordination.
Do i want McGee to develop bigman coordination..that would be wonderful...but it takes a life to develop and most great bigmen come into the league because they have been working on their coordination their entire lifes. McGee just started working on his post coordination since he has spent his life working purely on perimeter guard coordination. If mcGee's role was to be small forward or even if he had kevin garnett coordination then great but even McGee's perimeter coordination really isn't refined.
is there hope that mcgee in the next two years can develop refined foot coordination? has there ever been a case of a player with poor foot coordination developing average to above average foot coordination in the post?
i look at kevin garnett, a player with javales same length and far body mass...but is blessed with 1000 times more coordination?
Javale's problem is that he doesn't have bigman coordination and you guys think that he can develop this coordination in the next couple of years. i argue that coordination is something you spend years developing and once you become a certain age..23 is old..is pretty hard to improve your coordination...javale has poor bigman coordination==which is the most important athletic trait for a bigman offensively.
Defensively, javale can get strength and possibly be a tyson chandler or ben wallace...but neither tyson chandler or ben wallace ever had foot coordination..and 10 years later...neither of them still have Elite post foot coordination in the post.
Elite Post Foot coordination is a bigman athletic attribute needed to be successful offensively. javale doesn't have it just as tyson chandler and ben wallace never had it. The problem is javale wants to be consider an offensive finesse bigman. Without elite foot coordination, he will never be an offensive bigman yet that's what he sees himself as. The naivete that he shows in terms of his lack of elite foot coordination==yet his goal to be an offensive powerforward is amazing. What's worst is that i see no significant improvements in his post foot coordination since his rookie year.

[pancakes3]

wizD! you're making our arguments for us!

Do i want McGee to develop bigman coordination..that would be wonderful...but it takes a life to develop and most great bigmen come into the league because they have been working on their coordination their entire lifes. McGee just started working on his post coordination since he has spent his life working purely on perimeter guard coordination. If mcGee's role was to be small forward or even if he had kevin garnett coordination then great but even McGee's perimeter coordination really isn't refined.

is pretty much the definition of SKILL! an acquired ability! see, if you replaced "bigman coordination" with "wingspan" it wouldn't make any sense. why? because wingspan is literally engraved in the DNA. why does "bigman coordiation" work? because it's not congenital. Are some people genetically predisposed to being more coordinated? sure. but that's true of practically everything.

anyway, i don't want you to waste any more time coming up with 2000 word responses when really we're arguing over semantics here. our conclusions are the same - McGee is underdeveloped at this point in his career. he has the potential to improve but neither of us are really hopeful that's going to happen.

and @hands...
i think i posed this question about 10 pages ago. for this upcoming season, what is your goal for mcgee? is it to get better, or is it for him to contribute to W's. if it's the former? play him at C and force him to play defense for 82 games against the hefty giants. if you want to hide his weaknesses, then play him at PF defensively where his shortcomings are masked by his athleticism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. if you play him at PF defensively he's not going to get better. if you play him at C defensively, it might cost us 5 wins or so. nobody is doubting that playing AB at C and JV at PF is a better defensive game plan. it's... just in the grand scheme of things going to hamper both blatche and mcgee's development which really shouldn't be an option since we're in "rebuilding" mode.

"AB@C&JV@PF"!!! omfgidkmybffjill"

[Dat2U]

Reading back a bit I think WizarDynasty is confusing athleticism with explosiveness. I'll agree that McGee isn't particularly explosive but for his height & length, McGee is a damned good athlete. But McGee is definitely a C through & through. He might be able to guard some PFs but I cringe at the idea of him playing away from the basket and shooting jumpers all day.

[WizarDynasty]

Reading back a bit I think WizarDynasty is confusing athleticism with explosiveness. I'll agree that McGee isn't particularly explosive but for his height & length, McGee is a damned good athlete. But McGee is definitely a C through & through. He might be able to guard some PFs but I cringe at the idea of him playing away from the basket and shooting jumpers all day.

Earl Boykins was the fastest guy on the court and a hell of an athlete. Why isn't Boykins considered the most athletic guard in the league since he is fastest.
Javale McGee is great in athletic attributes not related to post play.
who care if he is an overall great athlete if the he is not a good athlete in the attributes related to his position.
McGee is a bigman--p/f or center. In order to be considered an athletic offensive bigman, you need elite explosive foot coordination.
McGEE doesn't have elite foot coordination therefore he is not the most athletic bigman in the league. he may be a great overall athlete but who cares since all that really matters during the playoffs is if he is great at the athletic attributes related to his position in a half court setting.
What are the athletic attributes related to post play for a bigman in a half court set. Would mcgee be considered athletic in any of those categories? Would be McGee be considered below average athletically in the categories of athleticism related to post play in a half court setting?[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyglZToY2rM[/youtube]
Nothing about McGee says he has anything close to elite post footwork when a defender is between him and the basket. Just watched the clip and be reminded. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opcT9pVQQpQ&feature=related[/youtube]

[hands11]

Funny how down we are on McGee when the rest of the NBA media thinks he's going to break out this year.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... look_N.htm

Same thing with Arenas, everybody else thought he was a ballhogging black hole, we know that Gilbert Arenas makes players around him into all stars.

What "We" are you talking about. One person is saying stuff.

[hands11]

Ya, McGee isn't athletic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pziunhD3 ... 1&index=30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVM5yfG8nXQ

Or explosive. Sorry DAT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNpfe-FKchk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMWK472W ... re=related

Pick and Roll and amazing hands. Quick hand eye coordination is athletic also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvDjgQW9 ... re=related

Nick to Dray to McGee. The Three Amigos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K15PIIv5VZM

Transition crossover SLAM. McGee showing some handles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMWK472W ... re=related

Not to mention the behind the back wrap around move he made.

McGee is athletic and he is explosive. He just isn't experienced/skilled in traditional moves.

[GhostsOfGil]

[/b][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opcT9pVQQpQ&feature=related[/youtube]

1:20 one of my all time favorite nick young moments

[Dat2U]

Reading back a bit I think WizarDynasty is confusing athleticism with explosiveness. I'll agree that McGee isn't particularly explosive but for his height & length, McGee is a damned good athlete. But McGee is definitely a C through & through. He might be able to guard some PFs but I cringe at the idea of him playing away from the basket and shooting jumpers all day.

Earl Boykins was the fastest guy on the court and a hell of an athlete. Why isn't Boykins considered the most athletic guard in the league since he is fastest.
Javale McGee is great in athletic attributes not related to post play.
who care if he is an overall great athlete if the he is not a good athlete in the attributes related to his position.
McGee is a bigman--p/f or center. In order to be considered an athletic offensive bigman, you need elite explosive foot coordination.
McGEE doesn't have elite foot coordination therefore he is not the most athletic bigman in the league. he may be a great overall athlete but who cares since all that really matters during the playoffs is if he is great at the athletic attributes related to his position in a half court setting.
What are the athletic attributes related to post play for a bigman in a half court set. Would mcgee be considered athletic in any of those categories? Would be McGee be considered below average athletically in the categories of athleticism related to post play in a half court setting?[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyglZToY2rM[/youtube]
Nothing about McGee says he has anything close to elite post footwork when a defender is between him and the basket. Just watched the clip and be reminded. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opcT9pVQQpQ&feature=related[/youtube]

Dude, McGee is friggin 7-1 255 with close to the longest standing reach in the entire NBA!

There is NO ONE. NO ONE in the league with that kind of size that is as athletically gifted as McGee or is as fluid/coordinated or as fast running up & down the court. It does take awhile for McGee to get started but only b/c he's so incredibly long.

If your going to compare players that are 4-5 inches shorter than him in length then it isn't really a fair comparison. Plus McGee's length can more than compensate against shorter players with superior athletic gifts.

McGee's struggles in the paint are a result of a lack of core strength and a complete unwillingness to bang in the post. He doesn't need to be more athletic. He needs get smarter & tougher.

[crackhed]

Earl Boykins was the fastest guy on the court and a hell of an athlete. Why isn't Boykins considered the most athletic guard in the league since he is fastest.
Javale McGee is great in athletic attributes not related to post play.
who care if he is an overall great athlete if the he is not a good athlete in the attributes related to his position.
McGee is a bigman--p/f or center. In order to be considered an athletic offensive bigman, you need elite explosive foot coordination.
McGEE doesn't have elite foot coordination therefore he is not the most athletic bigman in the league. he may be a great overall athlete but who cares since all that really matters during the playoffs is if he is great at the athletic attributes related to his position in a half court setting.
What are the athletic attributes related to post play for a bigman in a half court set. Would mcgee be considered athletic in any of those categories? Would be McGee be considered below average athletically in the categories of athleticism related to post play in a half court setting?
[clip]
Nothing about McGee says he has anything close to elite post footwork when a defender is between him and the basket. Just watched the clip and be reminded.
[clip]

if he doesnt know how doesnt mean he's not athletic. he's raw.

[Silvie Lysandra]

he's actually making a good point here

are we so enamored with McGee's vertical, quickness and length that we don't even consider that the guy may not have some other, not quite as obvious but just as important "athletic" traits that make a big man great?

For example, Kwame Brown had lots of athleticism and length, yet he never became a great scorer or rebounder because he wasn't that coordinated, and had small hands. His athletic gifts were mostly wasted because the athletic attributes that MATTER, he wasn't that good in.

And the fact is, maybe we're making the same mistake some made with Kwame - we assumed because he was young he was automatically going to develop those things. But he didn't. Here, Wizardynasty makes another good point - why doesn't Dwight have great post footwork? Why doesn't Ben Wallace? Why doesn't Tyson Chandler? Etc, etc. You don't think the Magic are desperate to make Dwight a great offensive center? Shooting is a skill, yet some guys never become great shooters.

[Rafael122]

he's actually making a good point here

are we so enamored with McGee's vertical, quickness and length that we don't even consider that the guy may not have some other, not quite as obvious but just as important "athletic" traits that make a big man great?

For example, Kwame Brown had lots of athleticism and length, yet he never became a great scorer or rebounder because he wasn't that coordinated, and had small hands. His athletic gifts were mostly wasted because the athletic attributes that MATTER, he wasn't that good in.

And the fact is, maybe we're making the same mistake some made with Kwame - we assumed because he was young he was automatically going to develop those things. But he didn't. Here, Wizardynasty makes another good point - why doesn't Dwight have great post footwork? Why doesn't Ben Wallace? Why doesn't Tyson Chandler? Etc, etc. You don't think the Magic are desperate to make Dwight a great offensive center? Shooting is a skill, yet some guys never become great shooters.

McGee will never become the banger that we need. He's a 25 minute per game player, who could get 10 points easily off fastbreaks and putbacks and alley oops. He will get eaten alive by the bigger, stronger centers. I just hope Flip and the rest of the staff realize this and use McGee's strengths while hiding his weaknesses. A guy like Jeff Foster would have been nice, a banger, hustle player who could get you 6-7 boards per game and play tough defense, allowing McGee to free roam.

[BruceO]

like lamar odom said about Mcgee. The game is called basketball, not run and jump. I was high on mcgee since draft day but i'll show tough love. He cannot become a good basketball player unless he can consistently defend. These strong guys like Boozer, Amare put up very high percantages against him. Also these guys and a few more like Pau gasol get rebounds that reach upwards of 15. I think it's javale's job to stop it.

I was comfortable with his offense since back in the day. He is quite quick and the length makes it hard to stop him when he faces up. So at this juncture this really shouldn't be about his athleticism or lack thereof. Also should not be about his height. He has these things in boatloads. At this juncture it really should be about his ability to defend, ability to limit opposing bigs rebounds ( boxing out and maintaining position etc) and his ability to play the game of basketball with intelligence. When he can do this, that's when he can be a top center. If he cannot do this then he will always have liabilities. Atleast on the positive side we may see more of him on the court now that his lack of breath is attributed to asthma.

[doclinkin]

he's actually making a good point here

are we so enamored with McGee's vertical, quickness and length that we don't even consider that the guy may not have some other, not quite as obvious but just as important "athletic" traits that make a big man great?

For example, Kwame Brown had lots of athleticism and length, yet he never became a great scorer or rebounder because he wasn't that coordinated, and had small hands. His athletic gifts were mostly wasted because the athletic attributes that MATTER, he wasn't that good in.

The only basketball muscles that the KFB is lacking are the 6 inches of space between his ears and his metaphorical heart. The rest was training, or lack thereof.

Patrick Ewing had small hands and was awkward in his movements early on. Charles Oakley was uncoordinated, with relatively small handspan, no great reach. These players managed to make great careers for themselves in large part because of their willingness to work and their desperation to win. And in the case of Pat, because he had a great mentor early on in Big John who drilled him in the critical basics of Big Man play. Fundamentals.

4 years of college makes a huge difference. Especially for a big. It's tough to develop when you're fresh out of highschool like KFB or Jermaine O'Neal. If you rode the bench your first two years like JV and never had to carry a team it's tough to learn a leadership role and to care about captaining a team from the defensive keystone position.

ON the low block with your back to the basket is the one defensive position that can see both teams at once: his man, your man, where the pick is coming from on your blindside, etc. If you spend your time roaming trying to block perimeter shots, and nobody forces you to stay 'at home' under the bucket, you won't learn the skills there, won't learn that this is where wins and losses are earned.

If you aren't expected as a senior to carry the team to the tournament, to play for the name on the front of the jersey, you never learn that you have a responsibility to the team first and always. You never learn that winning is more important than flashy plays.

JaVale has been told his whole life he's going to be a supastar. His mom wanted him learning the razzle-dazzle perimeter skills since she witnessed that the teammates and peers who got all the press and accolades were the outside players, not the grunts. Looks to me like to some extent she protected JV a bit, sheltered him. I don't think she wanted her skinny sweet-natured kid having to really fight like she and her sister did. (Literally. With eachother apparently, and in Flint Michigan growing up).

According to her she picked Nevada because the coach was running a system that would allow a Big to diddle around on the outside. All part of her grand plan. He could develop the skills that would surely make him a star at the next level.

She was wrong. Or anyway he rode the bench behind Nick Fazekas his freshman year, playing little. Then soph year played 27 mins a game, throwing up 42 three point attempts in 33 games from the Center position. How many fundamentally sound NBA teams rely on the perimeter attack of their superlong Big? How many Championships have been won with a Big man orbiting the outside lobbing 3-balls, hitting one in three (from college range).

True Bigs take a long time to develop because the basic skills can't even be worked on until you hit your final height. There's a reason why you see overlooked underheight but productive low-post players who have the thick torso and large rump strong thighs, core and foundation. These players hit their adult weight early and learn to throw their weight around. They learned foot work and paint skills. A chunky kid at an early age pretty much knows he's gonna be stuck close to the basket to bully people around, if he's gonna get any PT at all. And chunky young is chunky late, the skills translate.

A long rangy kid, he don't know that he's gonna top out at close to seven feet, he tries to learn the guard skills. You end up with your 7 foot Anthony Randolph players trying to be Mike Jordan. Austin Daye. Rarely, very rarely, you get a Kevin Durant, who has a tireless work ethic and had pro-level tutors at an early age. Mostly, no. Mostly you get long tweeners who are scared of the paint, don't know what to do in there.

But a guy like McGee, especially with his lackadaisical effort and reluctance to listen to coaching, is never gonna be a Kevin Durant. The sooner he realizes that, the quicker he can begin working on the real basic groundwork necessary for long term low-post success at the pro level.

The reason Roy Hibbert is already ahead of McGee has nothing at all to do with athleticism. Look back through the history of successful Bigs and you figure this out pretty quickly. Deke Mutombo would make a terrible dance partner. Rik Smits. Whomever. Fact is McGee's advanced athleticism actually gets in the way of his developing the basic skills he will need for success at the next level. Because it means he gets rewarded with sportscenter loops for the behind the back dribble drive from the outside.

And quite frankly at this point all our Youtube Giant wants right now is recognition. Youtube, Ustream, twitvids, etc all he wants crowd appreciation. That's the measure of his success. He's never won at any level, never had to. Wins don't really matter. Crowd noise is the quickest feedback you get. Instant gratification. You know: he's a twitter playa.

[WizarDynasty]

McGee wants to be a finesse offensive bigman powerforward but without elite post footwork coordination he will never become one. McGee is quite old 23 and has passed his window of opportunity to develop highly coordinated post footwork.
Roy Hibbert always had strenght, McGee has never had strength so those two shouldn't be compared.
Comparing McGee to Kevin Garnett is probably better since both of them are skinny but very long.

[nate33]

WizarDynasty, you are right that McGee wants to be a finesse player and he lacks strength. I think you are too quick to discount the possibility that he can gain strength though. McGee is actually only 22, but more importantly, I think his window of opportunity to develop strength is much later than normal because he is still growing. Most kids stop growing at 18 or 19 and then put on man strength over the next 3 or 4 years. McGee stopped growing at 22 (assuming he has stopped). Give him at least another 2 or 3 years before concluding that he can't get strong.

[WizarDynasty]

if you look at his legs, you can see his body isn't built for strength, its built for speed. The problem is that he passed his window of opportunity for elite post footwork coordination a long time ago. If he had trained at an early age, he probably would be the next kevin garnett but is foot coordination is slightly better than Haywood. Again, his legs are like twigs, McGee's genetics are built for speed, not for power which is why he is never going to have a powerful base in order to rebound. The reason he is a poor defender is because he has poor foot coordination in the post.
The problem with McGee will always be his poor foot coordination close to basket when a defender is between him and basket offensively and defensively, his legs and thighs are twigs built for quickness his legs aren't built for moving objects...which is what bigmen are suppose to do when they clear out space for a rebound.
he will never have elite post footwork coordination which automatically restricts McGee's entire career. But McGee believes in his heart that he is an offensive player because he can dribble from the three point line and shoot a six inch low release point jumper.
the moment he realizes that his offensive game is restricted to be being a garbage man, then maybe we can use him coming off the bench.
You can't be one of the most athletic bigmen in the league if you don't have elite post footwork coordination plain and simple and McGee doesn't know this.
Since McGee is a tweener, his only real hope of overcoming his strength limitations is by taking advantage of his coordination. usually really powerful bigmen lack coordination and skinny players like Kevin Garnett take advantage of this.
McGee not only lacks strength but also foot coordination. that is a deadly combination to not have. He has been in the league 3 years and hasn't grown noticeable stronger so to expect him to grow stronger is pretty backwards. To expect him to magically develop high foot coordination in the post after 3 years is backwards. McGee is a garbage bench player good for catching alleyhoops and he should only get minutes when the player he is guarding can't make a layup if left wide open.