Discussing Other Teams' Moves

[closg00]

According to Mike Lee, we are looking for a vet PG. I would like to flog again for Jeremy Pargo, the dude is straight-up an NBA player now who can do everything.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I3RU512qJ0[/youtube]

I'll be damned. I've been flogging for Jeremy Pargo for over a year and the Grizzlies just signed him to a multi-year deal. Say good-bye to The General perhaps.

[rockymac52]

I don't understand how Andrew Bynum is not a part of this trade. I thought that originally, and I thought it even more so after the original deal was vetoed and the Hornets allegedly needed more youth. I'm not convinced that Bynum is as good as some people make him out to be, but he's clearly a pretty decent center in this league already, and he's young and shows some promise. That's the type of player a team should be getting when they trade a legitimate superstar, even if everyone knows he's two feet out the door already.

[7-Day Dray]

This trade is very poor for NO. They received solid players, but no youth, and no superstars. That team won't be able to get very far in the playoffs.

[dangermouse]

So theyve barely tweaked the original trade and re-submitted it.

Their thinking was most likely: "Hey, its not like he'll veto this again and face an even bigger backlash from the unwashed masses in the city of angels. It wont even matter if Gilbert and Cuban send 100 letters to Sterny Boy in 28pt comic sans! Not even 52pt comic sans! NOT EVEN FRANKLIN. GOTHIC. HEAVY. Muhuauahauhauhauha!!!"

[dangermouse]

What about:

NOH sends Paul
gets: Odom, Dragic, Patterson, a 1st from the Rockets?

HOU sends Scola, Dragic, Patterson, 1st
gets: Gasol, LAL 1st?

LAL sends Gasol, Odom, 1st
gets: Paul, Scola

Rockets fans probably hate it.

God, just send Bynum to New Orleans already and make it fair...

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

To be honest, I think Martin is overrated. He's a very good offensive player, but he's likely to decline soon (age) and he's already terrible on defense. Gasol is at least arguably a top-5 two way player at his position, and likely to stay that way for several years.

Kevin Martin is 2 years older than Nick Young. He's only 28 years old.

I don't see how you can say Kevin Martin will decline soon when Kobe is 34. Manu is 34. Ray Allen is 36. Each of these guys is just starting to decline and they are significantly older than Martin. If anything, Martin has about 3 or 4 prime years left IMO. He probably hasn't had his best season, as far as I am concerned.

[Illuminaire]

All of those guys have been declining for years, CCJ. Manu has been getting limited regular season minutes for the last, what, 4-5 years to help keep his legs fresh? Allen had major ankle issues and no one expected him to be so reliable for Boston, but he still only works there because they had Pierce and Rondo as a play maker.

Kobe has been fighting his decline more fiercely than any player in recent memory, but he's still lost a lot of bounce and has had to adjust his game significantly.

Kevin Martin was never as good as those guys to begin with. He starts out as an inferior player. He's a savvy scorer, but he's a terrible defender - and as he loses a half-step, that's only going to become more and more of a problem.

Anyways, I can say Kevin is going to decline soon because historically speaking, pretty much all guards suffer noticeable production decline around the time they reach their third decade. That's just what happens... I don't make the rules, and I don't recommend banking on (partial) exceptions.

[Illuminaire]

I'm willing to be wrong here. Maybe we need to do a more in depth look at when age strikes different kinds of shooting guards. Unfortunately, I don't know where to get any good defensive data going back very far.

Kevin! I summon thee, oh hound of statistics!

[dangermouse]

Kmart isnt on the same tier as Manu or Ray Ray anyway.

He can score like them but both of those players have far more well-rounded games than him.

[nate33]

I don't think Kevin Martin will decline anytime soon, but I also think he's somewhat of an empty stats player. His numbers look good but he doesn't win much because of his D. However you slice it, I feel confident in saying that Pau Gasol is going to be a better player over the next 4 years than Kevin Martin. Houston did just fine in this trade.

Overall, this trade only works if Bynum can stay healthy. I'm betting he can't. My guess is that the Lakers might be worse off because of the deal. The only upside is that Chris Paul is still young. He and Bynum will be a quality PG/C combo for the next 5-7 years. That should be enough to keep them a winning team after Kobe departs.

[hands11]

Lakers Pull Out Of Chris Paul Trade, Will Trade Odom To Dallas
Dec 10, 2011 11:51 PM EST

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... z1gCWddD4T

Sources say the Lakers will instead trade Odom to the Mavericks for their traded player exception that was acquired from the Knicks for Tyson Chandler.

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... z1gCXe6jRg

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... ng-sources

The Lakers are now expected to turn their full focus to obtaining Dwight Howard, who has asked the Orlando Magic to trade him.

One source close to the process said that the Lakers will instead trade Lamar Odom to the Dallas Mavericks.

The Lakers will receive unspecified draft considerations from the Mavericks in exchange for Odom, whose contract slots into the Mavericks' trade exception created in their three-team trade earlier Saturday that sent Tyson Chandler to New York.

Wow.

Unless I'm reading it wrong these stories don't jive. Did the Lakers get the trade exemption or was it used by Dallas ? I bet CP is pissed. Wonder if there will be a law suit now. Getting messy.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Kmart isnt on the same tier as Manu or Ray Ray anyway.

He can score like them but both of those players have far more well-rounded games than him.

Okay, I know it is pointless to use actual stats, but I will do the best I can to show the facts.

Kevin Martin has a career PER of 18.9 and a career WS/48 of .151
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ike02.html

Ray Allen has a career PER of 19.4 and a career WS/48 of .154
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nra02.html

Kevin Martin's career Per-36 minutes averages: 21.3 points, 4.1 rebounds, 2.3 assists
Ray Allen's career Per-36 minutes averages: 19.7 points, 4.2 rebounds, 3.5 assists (21+ pts pre-BOS)

The huge difference is in Allen's effective shooting percentage. He's also a better passer. Still, Kevin Martin ranks #5 in active true shooting and #20 in NBA true shooting for his career. Martin's true shooting is better for his career than Allen's. Ray Allen is the significantly more accurate shooter, as is reflected in effective field goal percentage.

That said, I think you guys are tremendously underrating Kevin Martin.

[Dat2U]

Kmart isnt on the same tier as Manu or Ray Ray anyway.

He can score like them but both of those players have far more well-rounded games than him.

KMart is one of the most efficient scorers in basketball. He's a top 5 SG (IMO) and while not quite at the level of Manu, I'd take him in heartbeat over Ray Allen and even Joe Johnson.

I think he's young enough that I would be very interested in acquiring him if the price was right.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Kevin Martin is young enough that with the right team in about 5 years he would be more highly regarded than Johnson ever was, and spoken of in the same terms as Ray Allen. I remember when Allen wasn't winning anything with the Milwaukee Bucks. He, Gary Payton, Sam Cassell, and Glenn Robinson were a lot like the Wizards with Gilbert, Caron, and Antawn Jamison. Ray was already 4 seasons more stats than Martin when he went to the Celtics, but he wasn't thought of as an all-time great.

Martin on a great team would become one of the more highly regarded players. Dat, I'm positive he's a top-5 SG, and I think the guys underrating him are very wrong.

[mhd]

If I were Houston, I'd sell high on Scola and Martin and go with a quick rebuild. Here is my trade idea that I posted on the trade board:

Houston trades Scola+Lowry+Martin to Indy for George+Posey(exp)+Livingston+Indy 2012 1st rounder+Bucks 2012 1st rounder
Indy trades George+Posey+Hansborough+2012 1st rounder for Martin+Lowry+Scola
Bucks trade Livingston+2012 1st for Hansborough

NEW LINEUPS:
Indy:
PG: Lowry/Collison
SG: Martin/Hill
SF: Granger/Rush
PF: Scola/McRoberts
C: Hibbert/Foster

Bucks:
PG: Jennings/Udrich
SG: Jackson/Delfino
SF: LRam/Dunleavy/Harris
PF: Hansborough/Gooden/Sanders
C: Bogut/Brockman

Houston:
PG: Dragic/Flynn
SG: Lee/Buddinger
SF: George/Williams
PF: Patterson/Morris
C: Thabeet/Hill

WHY FOR THE PACERS?
1) They go all in. Scola, Martin, and Lowry present huge upgrades. I know it costs Paul George, but if they want to win now, this is the best deal they probably could get. All three also make reasonable salaries.
WHY FOR THE BUCKS?
1) They also want to win now. Hansborough gives them cheap, young production at a vital area of need.
WHY FOR THE ROCKETS?
1) They decide to "tank", play the young guys, and get an insane amount of cap space coming up. Paul George and Patterson are a darn good starting frontcourt to build around. With three 1st round picks in this upcoming historic draft, they go young.



Houston would have an insane amount of cap space next year potentially (sans draft picks Morris and 3 1st rounders next year) if they only retain Patterson and George, they'd have 4.67 million in committed salaries! With that said, I'd retain their cheap assets of Buddinger, Lee, Williams, Hill, Flynn, and even Thabeet at a reasonable 15 million total. Theyd have 20 million in committed salaries, meaning they'd have roughly 40 million in cap space next year!

[Illuminaire]

As soon as you want to address the other half of the game of basketball - you know, the one that these other names you're mentioning don't suck at - I might find your arguments more compelling.

[dangermouse]

The restructured Paul trade was blocked by the league again, albeit more quietly. Good.

Thats a pretty good trade for the Mavs. Now all they need, i would say, would be someone to backup Haywood.

Looks like LAL are gearing up to put in an offer for Howard. I would expect Bynum to be the starting point again here.

[Ed Wood]

I insist someone explain to me who performed the alchemical transmutation that resulted in Hasheem Thabeet being a young asset to be retained. I mean I don't think Houston would like the rest of that very much either but that bit leaves me, as a fake internet friend, somewhat concerned about the state of your mental heath mhd. Are you okay? We are here for you.

[hands11]

The restructured Paul trade was blocked by the league again, albeit more quietly. Good.

Thats a pretty good trade for the Mavs. Now all they need, i would say, would be someone to backup Haywood.

Looks like LAL are gearing up to put in an offer for Howard. I would expect Bynum to be the starting point again here.

Guess you missed my post on page 37

[Ruzious]

Gotta say that Cuban continues to show that he is the NBA's premier master strategist - Odom fits perfectly for them - he has only 2.4 mil guaranteed next season - or they can keep him for 8.2 mil. So, they can be a contender this season and still have great flexibility for next season. Now, I don't look at them as favorites - they need a young guy to step up big in that backcourt and another big - like DM said, but they've got a shot.

Now, can the Lakers get Howard for Bynum and not give up Pau? If yes, they're in better shape than if they had made the Paul trade - and the Lakers and the Mavs owe Stern a Christmas present - Stern's meddling has inadvertantly helped the Lakers and Mavs. Will it hurt NO? Probably not much - if they get Minnesota's unprotected 1st rounder in a trade with the Clips - along with Aminu, Bledsoe, and Kaman - though I'm not a Kaman fan.