Political Roundtable Part XXX

[Pointgod]

Anyone else sick of the Democrats in disarray narrative in the media? I figure some posters in this thread must live in Virginia I find the handwringing over the Governor’s race stupid. Virginia is a blue state that Biden won by 10 points and the previous Governor won by 8 points! All this hand wringing is such a waste of time. The same thing was said about California and the clown Larry Elder got thoroughly embarrassed.

The only way Mcauliffe loses if Democratic voters don’t turn up. That should be the narrative, not that bs about school boards or mask mandates is actually making people vote for Republicans. The only thing that matters is turnout and the reason that Republicans in Red States are passing bs laws to keep people from voting Democrat. Because they know their policies are trash, their party is trash and they can’t win in a fair race.

[Ruzious]

I don't think R's have anything to do with defining the policies under which police departments in most state and municipal jurisdictions controlled by D's operate (where majority of crimes take place.) They are free to do as they wish for the most part. Defund, dismantle, etc.

It's the unspoken painful secret of the Democratic party, the large majority of them are white people who are racist as eff. They're the one's who gave the instructions to the cops to persecute black people. That's why they flip out when black people talk about abolishing the police.

What's the source of your claim that most white democrats are racist? And what do you mean by racist? If a white gets nervous when approaching a group of black men, that's certainly a racist reaction, but does that really make a difference if they support policies that benefit blacks and other minority groups. There's degrees of racism, and making blanket claims does nothing to improve the situation in the US.

And why use terms like "flip out"? It's certainly reasonable to question defunding the police. It's not a racist position. There are many alternatives for police reform that could be effective. Defunding the police is not going to happen, so it's best to consider options that are realistic and effective.

It was a ginormous mistake by liberal organizations to use the term "defund the police". It probably can't be overestimated how foolish a term that is. The idea of reducing some of the police responsibilities made sense - so the police would be able to focus more on things that they're trained in - rather than things like social work - which makes sense to use social workers, but the term used was politically suicidal - needlessly divisive. It has the same effect of calling a Pro Choice organization Pro Abortion.

[Zonkerbl]

I think white people should get over their discomfort with the phrase defund the police. All the discomfort with the phrase shows me is how wedded people are to a wrong idea that needs to change. Police aren't social workers. Police can't solve all our problems. The police's job is to catch people after they've committed crimes, full stop. They aren't mental health workers, they aren't domestic violence deescalation experts, they aren't drug overdose treatment experts, and the data shows the more exposure the police have with marginalized people the more damage they do. We have been wrong about the effectiveness of policing since the 1990s. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is more convincing evidence of this than there is of climate change.

Less whining, more problem solving.

[Ruzious]

I think white people should get over their discomfort with the phrase defund the police. All the discomfort with the phrase shows me is how wedded people are to a wrong idea that needs to change. Police aren't social workers. Police can't solve all our problems. The police's job is to catch people after they've committed crimes, full stop. They aren't mental health workers, they aren't domestic violence deescalation experts, they aren't drug overdose treatment experts, and the data shows the more exposure the police have with marginalized people the more damage they do. We have been wrong about the effectiveness of policing since the 1990s. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is more convincing evidence of this than there is of climate change.

Less whining, more problem solving.

The problem is with stupid people; not with white people. When you say defund the police, stupid people don't understand what that means. They assume it means only that you want to take away funding for police and reduce the police force - rather than move responsibilities away from them so services can be better and more efficiently provided.

[badinage]

I think white people should get over their discomfort with the phrase defund the police. All the discomfort with the phrase shows me is how wedded people are to a wrong idea that needs to change. Police aren't social workers. Police can't solve all our problems. The police's job is to catch people after they've committed crimes, full stop. They aren't mental health workers, they aren't domestic violence deescalation experts, they aren't drug overdose treatment experts, and the data shows the more exposure the police have with marginalized people the more damage they do. We have been wrong about the effectiveness of policing since the 1990s. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is more convincing evidence of this than there is of climate change.

Less whining, more problem solving.

Like it or not, politics is about selling something.

Liberals haven’t learned this lesson.

You have to sell the product. You have to have the right phrasing. You have to persuade.

It’s not enough — it never was enough — to be right.

Or to have a mountain of facts.

That’s not the game.

And make no mistake — at a base level, it’s a game.

You’re speaking the language of movement politics. “Should get over.” This isn’t movement politics. This is politics. The world of what is, and what can be made possible through deal-cutting, branding, persuasion, connection.

It’s a bad, bad phrase. Unspeakably bad. “Global warming” — that was also really, really bad.

[Ruzious]

You might even call it... deplorable.

[pancakes3]

Anyone else sick of the Democrats in disarray narrative in the media? I figure some posters in this thread must live in Virginia I find the handwringing over the Governor’s race stupid. Virginia is a blue state that Biden won by 10 points and the previous Governor won by 8 points! All this hand wringing is such a waste of time. The same thing was said about California and the clown Larry Elder got thoroughly embarrassed.

The only way Mcauliffe loses if Democratic voters don’t turn up. That should be the narrative, not that bs about school boards or mask mandates is actually making people vote for Republicans. The only thing that matters is turnout and the reason that Republicans in Red States are passing bs laws to keep people from voting Democrat. Because they know their policies are trash, their party is trash and they can’t win in a fair race.

Youngkin's a real threat. He's a Lincoln Project, throwback R and he represents stances that centrists in the area resonate with. The Fairfax kerfuffle about pulling LGBTQ+ books from school libraries is a manifestation of that. Lots of blue suburbanites also bristle about their kids being exposed to CRT because it forces them to confront their own biases. Hell, there's a decades-long rebellion against "new math."

Add in Youngkin's traditional scaremongering tactics like "Murder is up 43% under McCauliffe" coupled with "defund the police" and you have a lot of voters wadding their panties.

I don't think the sky will fall over Virginia the way its falling over the deep south states, and a lot of voters feel the same. There's an air of "oh, Youngkin, and by extension Virginia aren't THOSE kind of republicans - we just want our kids to grow up safe!" Which might have some superficial merit (bc I have no love for McCauliffe and Youngkin himself is not an actual klansman), but at the same time, it's a wagonload of bs (it's not about them personally, but about their parties).

The sad thing is, even if McCauliffe is handed a fairly humiliating defeat, the party at large will learn no lessons.

I think white people should get over their discomfort with the phrase defund the police. All the discomfort with the phrase shows me is how wedded people are to a wrong idea that needs to change. Police aren't social workers. Police can't solve all our problems. The police's job is to catch people after they've committed crimes, full stop. They aren't mental health workers, they aren't domestic violence deescalation experts, they aren't drug overdose treatment experts, and the data shows the more exposure the police have with marginalized people the more damage they do. We have been wrong about the effectiveness of policing since the 1990s. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is more convincing evidence of this than there is of climate change.

Less whining, more problem solving.

*detectives* solve crimes. cops arrest people and hand out tickets. there are virtually no instances where a detective shoots anyone and thousands of instances of cops doing it, and a lot of that has to do with (to your point) training and job description.

but yes, i agree that cops are woefully unequipped and untrained to do their jobs. cops *can* get training in social work, DV deescalation, drug treatment but the establishment chooses not to. and to badinage's point, the discomfort comes in a failing in messaging.

Like it or not, politics is about selling something.

Liberals haven’t learned this lesson.

You have to sell the product. You have to have the right phrasing. You have to persuade.

It’s not enough — it never was enough — to be right.

Or to have a mountain of facts.

That’s not the game.

And make no mistake — at a base level, it’s a game.

You’re speaking the language of movement politics. “Should get over.” This isn’t movement politics. This is politics. The world of what is, and what can be made possible through deal-cutting, branding, persuasion, connection.

It’s a bad, bad phrase. Unspeakably bad. “Global warming” — that was also really, really bad.

I can get behind this, though I'm personally baffled as why the failure of the populous to embrace "global warming" is a messaging problem. at its root, it's a product of big money buying politicians in the deal-cutting phase, but to me, it's still an overall mystery as to why it became a political issue.

Like, sure, I can understand the economic anxiety of workers in fossil fuels not wanting to lose their jobs, but 90% of the voters who oppose GND have no skin in the game. What difference does it make to Joe Sixpack that we stop fracking, or fossil fuels, and invest in renewables? It doesn't speak to any intrinsic nostalgia, or values like "defund the police" or "introduce CRT to the curriculum." We've been messaging global warming since the 70's (50 years now, for those keeping count) and it was a purple issue. No politician up through Trump was able to come out as a climate denier, and even those who opposed measures were only able to do so by solely citing "cost" and "the tech isn't there yet" as the prohibitive factors as to why we cannot adopt widespread change. There was a paradigm shift over the past 10 years where now it's politically acceptable to be a flat out denier.

And yet, when you look at all the environmental ills that have been addressed over the past 50 years: clean air, clean water, acid rain, smog, it's undeniable that environmental consciousness is a GOOD thing. Nobody can say "f*ck Flint, that water is just the cost of doing business" or advocate for the return of lead paint or asbestos, but god forbid someone hand you a paper straw.

It's just bonkers.

[Pointgod]

what's the lesson? what are the consequences?

Before George Floyd, there was not much support from the white population for issues such as police reform. I can't say much has really changed, but there is a lot more awareness of the issues among mainstream whites. The lesson is that if we stick together on human rights issues, there will at least be a chance for change. Will anything change in China? Of course not, but at least they will know they can't buy our silence.

Unfortunately, there are few consequences for bad behavior. Hardly anyone cares about Lebron's views on China. Police reform will not get far due to total obstruction by Republicans, but a few of the worst police will go to jail. China will do whatever it pleases.

I don't think R's have anything to do with defining the policies under which police departments in most state and municipal jurisdictions controlled by D's operate (where majority of crimes take place.) They are free to do as they wish for the most part. Defund, dismantle, etc.

This is a bit disingenuous. Policing policies can absolutely be made at the Federal level. If there’s a Federal standard, then in fact local prosecutors and the DOJ can prosecute police that break the laws. In fact there was some sort of police reform deal that was supported by some police organizations until GOP shill Tim Scott broke off all negotiations and lied about the bill (I never trusted Scott anyway). Police reform could absolutely get done, it’s just that Republicans would rather cater to racists than work with Democrats

[Pointgod]

I think white people should get over their discomfort with the phrase defund the police. All the discomfort with the phrase shows me is how wedded people are to a wrong idea that needs to change. Police aren't social workers. Police can't solve all our problems. The police's job is to catch people after they've committed crimes, full stop. They aren't mental health workers, they aren't domestic violence deescalation experts, they aren't drug overdose treatment experts, and the data shows the more exposure the police have with marginalized people the more damage they do. We have been wrong about the effectiveness of policing since the 1990s. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is more convincing evidence of this than there is of climate change.

Less whining, more problem solving.

It’s not just white people that have a problem with defunding the police. A lot of black people view it unfavourably as well. I understand activists using the phrase but it’s a really stupid phrase in the political sphere and there’s zero political benefit to be gained be anyone using the phrase. That’s just the reality. Literally talking about anything else but Democrats shouldn’t mention defunding the police other than the fact that they’re against it.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/police-reform-polls-white-black-crime.html

One of the worst things to propose, politically, is defunding the police. Americans reject that idea by about 40 percentage points. Democrats and people of color are against it. The only idea that’s less popular is abolishing the police, which, in an Economist-YouGov poll taken this month, lost by 45 points among Black Americans, by 64 points among Democrats, and by 76 points among all voters.

[Zonkerbl]

Again, this is not a political unpopularity issue. It's an education issue. Polls describe the world as it is, not as it should be. We're not going to get anywhere by saying, oh well people are just stupid. Educate them.

The Republicans are able to take something completely innocuous, like CRT, and turn it into a big scary bugaboo just by telling lies about it over and over on their propaganda broadcast network until people believe it.

If it's that easy to convince people of lies, how much harder can it be to convince people of the truth? You all are capitulating to your fear of the backlash from Fox News - that's how they win. Through intimidation. Don't allow yourself to be intimidated by them, be more like Trump - when someone punches you, you punch back, ten times harder. And that's what criminal justice reform needs - much more punching back.

Cowering in a corner because the bullies punch you in the face every time you say "defund the police" isn't going to accomplish anything. That's how you lose. Punch back, harder.

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think white people should get over their discomfort with the phrase defund the police. All the discomfort with the phrase shows me is how wedded people are to a wrong idea that needs to change. Police aren't social workers. Police can't solve all our problems. The police's job is to catch people after they've committed crimes, full stop. They aren't mental health workers, they aren't domestic violence deescalation experts, they aren't drug overdose treatment experts, and the data shows the more exposure the police have with marginalized people the more damage they do. We have been wrong about the effectiveness of policing since the 1990s. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is more convincing evidence of this than there is of climate change.

Less whining, more problem solving.

The 1st YouTube clip is just for shock value.

https://youtu.be/51t1OsPSdBc

The second is revelatory. Listen especially after about 6 minutes.

https://youtu.be/u1rTgYpEkuo

Social commentary by Ice Cube THIRTY YEARS AGO was prescient.

Sent from my SM-A526U using RealGM mobile app

[FAH1223]

McAullife is blowing the race in Virginia. Shades of Hillary 2016. Youngkin is terrible and unfortunately his early TV ads and his suburban dad vibes help him against the Trump attacks.

Also, the Dems not passing their OWN agenda that people voted for in 2020 is just a sight to behold. In other developed countries, a party or coalition wins, they have a set of priorities and they pass that shid immediately.

Biden trying to be the good guy and get along with everyone is having him get rolled by Manchin and Sinema. A $1.75T package will do a lot of good but the POTUS not getting out front on his own agenda for the last few months has been a big disappointment and the Dem base is disillusioned in many places.

Bad, bad vibes for 2022.

[Pointgod]

Anyone else sick of the Democrats in disarray narrative in the media? I figure some posters in this thread must live in Virginia I find the handwringing over the Governor’s race stupid. Virginia is a blue state that Biden won by 10 points and the previous Governor won by 8 points! All this hand wringing is such a waste of time. The same thing was said about California and the clown Larry Elder got thoroughly embarrassed.

The only way Mcauliffe loses if Democratic voters don’t turn up. That should be the narrative, not that bs about school boards or mask mandates is actually making people vote for Republicans. The only thing that matters is turnout and the reason that Republicans in Red States are passing bs laws to keep people from voting Democrat. Because they know their policies are trash, their party is trash and they can’t win in a fair race.

Youngkin's a real threat. He's a Lincoln Project, throwback R and he represents stances that centrists in the area resonate with. The Fairfax kerfuffle about pulling LGBTQ+ books from school libraries is a manifestation of that. Lots of blue suburbanites also bristle about their kids being exposed to CRT because it forces them to confront their own biases. Hell, there's a decades-long rebellion against "new math."

Add in Youngkin's traditional scaremongering tactics like "Murder is up 43% under McCauliffe" coupled with "defund the police" and you have a lot of voters wadding their panties.

I don't think the sky will fall over Virginia the way its falling over the deep south states, and a lot of voters feel the same. There's an air of "oh, Youngkin, and by extension Virginia aren't THOSE kind of republicans - we just want our kids to grow up safe!" Which might have some superficial merit (bc I have no love for McCauliffe and Youngkin himself is not an actual klansman), but at the same time, it's a wagonload of bs (it's not about them personally, but about their parties).

The sad thing is, even if McCauliffe is handed a fairly humiliating defeat, the party at large will learn no lessons.

And believing that Youngkin is a harmless Republican is idiotic imo. He’s more than willing to use the same scare tactics and divisive bs that will get people hurt or possibly killed. This isn’t like the Governor Maryland or Massachusetts. Kiss Medicare expansion good bye, kiss any infrastructure spending good bye, if you want your kids safe at school kiss that goodbye as well, climate action bye, fighting income inequality bye. You literally can’t trust any Trump allied Republican. Youngkin will do his best to turn Virginia into the next Florida and that’s not an exaggeration. There’s a lot of damage that can be done through executive orders, even if Democrats control both chambers and Youngkin can only serve for 4 years.

[Pointgod]

Again, this is not a political unpopularity issue. It's an education issue. Polls describe the world as it is, not as it should be. We're not going to get anywhere by saying, oh well people are just stupid. Educate them.

The Republicans are able to take something completely innocuous, like CRT, and turn it into a big scary bugaboo just by telling lies about it over and over on their propaganda broadcast network until people believe it.

If it's that easy to convince people of lies, how much harder can it be to convince people of the truth? You all are capitulating to your fear of the backlash from Fox News - that's how they win. Through intimidation. Don't allow yourself to be intimidated by them, be more like Trump - when someone punches you, you punch back, ten times harder. And that's what criminal justice reform needs - much more punching back.

Cowering in a corner because the bullies punch you in the face every time you say "defund the police" isn't going to accomplish anything. That's how you lose. Punch back, harder.

Once you have to take the time to explain something, you’ve already lost the messaging war. Democrats can absolutely talk about defunding the police without using the phrase defund the policy. The policies that involve defunding the police are popular but the phrase is not. So it’s pretty simple don’t use the phrase, say you’re against it and pivot to what you want to do if you don’t want Republican attack ads to stick. But embracing the term defund the police isn’t going to change any hearts or minds and embracing defunding the police is a political gift to Republicans and literally running face first into a buzz saw.

[Pointgod]

McAullife is blowing the race in Virginia. Shades of Hillary 2016. Youngkin is terrible and unfortunately his early TV ads and his suburban dad vibes help him against the Trump attacks.

Im going to hold my judgment until the results. At the end of the day this is always the same media narrative that Dems are going to lose or Democrats in disarray. You don’t get a 10 point win for Biden and 8 point lead for Northam from Republicans and Independents switching over to Democratic votes. Democrats have a voter lead and it’s just a matter of turnout. Simple as that and this is no different for any other state, even where Democrats don’t have the registration advantage.

Also, the Dems not passing their OWN agenda that people voted for in 2020 is just a sight to behold. In other developed countries, a party or coalition wins, they have a set of priorities and they pass that shid immediately.

Biden trying to be the good guy and get along with everyone is having him get rolled by Manchin and Sinema. A $1.75T package will do a lot of good but the POTUS not getting out front on his own agenda for the last few months has been a big disappointment and the Dem base is disillusioned in many places.

Bad, bad vibes for 2022.

Joe Manchin and Kristen Sinema are screwing over everyone running from now to 2022 because they’re not up until 2024. A few problems with the process was focusing on the size of the reconciliation bill for some reason instead of saying benefits and then Chuck Schumer fumbling by letting Joe Manchin waste everyone’s time when he knew in July how much he would sign on for. They’ll get something passed which is all the matters but you can also blame the supposed Liberal media when they focus on what was left out instead of all the people it will help instead of comparing it to be alternative if Republicans were in control which is more tax cuts for the rich and increasing deficits.

[Ruzious]

The millionth example of how ridiculous it was that the pos was actually our President - a case study in abnormal psychology.

Read on Twitter

[closg00]

McAullife is blowing the race in Virginia. Shades of Hillary 2016. Youngkin is terrible and unfortunately his early TV ads and his suburban dad vibes help him against the Trump attacks.

Also, the Dems not passing their OWN agenda that people voted for in 2020 is just a sight to behold. In other developed countries, a party or coalition wins, they have a set of priorities and they pass that shid immediately.

Biden trying to be the good guy and get along with everyone is having him get rolled by Manchin and Sinema. A $1.75T package will do a lot of good but the POTUS not getting out front on his own agenda for the last few months has been a big disappointment and the Dem base is disillusioned in many places.

Bad, bad vibes for 2022.

McAullife is a face that's been around too-long in VA politics, the average voter is attracted to the new guy.

[verbal8]

McAullife is blowing the race in Virginia. Shades of Hillary 2016. Youngkin is terrible and unfortunately his early TV ads and his suburban dad vibes help him against the Trump attacks.

Im going to hold my judgment until the results. At the end of the day this is always the same media narrative that Dems are going to lose or Democrats in disarray. You don’t get a 10 point win for Biden and 8 point lead for Northam from Republicans and Independents switching over to Democratic votes. Democrats have a voter lead and it’s just a matter of turnout. Simple as that and this is no different for any other state, even where Democrats don’t have the registration advantage.

Hopefully McAullife will win in VA. A better candidate could have made it a less close race.

One thought I had recently. Was if the GOP somehow ran an actual moderate like Hogan, I think McAullife would be clearly behind.

[popper]

Before George Floyd, there was not much support from the white population for issues such as police reform. I can't say much has really changed, but there is a lot more awareness of the issues among mainstream whites. The lesson is that if we stick together on human rights issues, there will at least be a chance for change. Will anything change in China? Of course not, but at least they will know they can't buy our silence.

Unfortunately, there are few consequences for bad behavior. Hardly anyone cares about Lebron's views on China. Police reform will not get far due to total obstruction by Republicans, but a few of the worst police will go to jail. China will do whatever it pleases.

I don't think R's have anything to do with defining the policies under which police departments in most state and municipal jurisdictions controlled by D's operate (where majority of crimes take place.) They are free to do as they wish for the most part. Defund, dismantle, etc.

This is a bit disingenuous. Policing policies can absolutely be made at the Federal level. If there’s a Federal standard, then in fact local prosecutors and the DOJ can prosecute police that break the laws. In fact there was some sort of police reform deal that was supported by some police organizations until GOP shill Tim Scott broke off all negotiations and lied about the bill (I never trusted Scott anyway). Police reform could absolutely get done, it’s just that Republicans would rather cater to racists than work with Democrats

What is disingenuous about pointing out that D's have the political clout to reform police as they please (without R support) in states and cities they control: CA, NY, IL, OR, WA, CO, NM, HI, NV, VA, NJ, etc. -- D's control many large cities within R states giving them additional opportunities to reform police (which some have already done). Also, I never said that "police policies cannot be made at the federal level." Not sure where you got that from.