Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread

[80sballboy]

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[doclinkin]

I agree that running an offense through a high post 5 is looking more and more like a very effective strategy in today's NBA. (Miami also does it a lot through Bam.) I'm not really sure how this relates to Draymond or Deni though. Those guys are too short and don't shoot well enough to be the high post focal point.

The really neat thing about running the offense through your 5 is because all four other players are likely to be threats to shoot and drive past a close out. If you run the high post offense through your 4, you are still stuck with a low-skill 5 who teams will sag off of and use that help defender to jam up all the back door cuts.

Draymond can make it work while playing the 4 in Golden State to some degree because Curry has such insane gravity, but I don't think it's a blueprint that Deni can follow here.

Golden State won 73 games with Draymond as their small ball center. Distributing from the top of the key. That was a key feature of the small ball era. Draymond in the middle, shooters in motion.

Yes I was referencing Bam as well as the Joker when talking about these finals.

To make it really sing it is useful to have players who understand how to play off motion. Good read and react players who understand team play. It was in this role that I was spotlighting Deni and Kispert. Both have a good sense of timing and react well to split second openings. Deni just doesn't help provide anything on the outside to make it really work. He is faster than many 4's though. And passes well on the move, as a relay man. If he shot as well here as he did in Euro play, he'd be a much more useful player in that role.

Draymond has shot better in past years. Passably well from 3. Solid above the FT line.

[80sballboy]

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[80sballboy]

I agree that running an offense through a high post 5 is looking more and more like a very effective strategy in today's NBA. (Miami also does it a lot through Bam.) I'm not really sure how this relates to Draymond or Deni though. Those guys are too short and don't shoot well enough to be the high post focal point.

The really neat thing about running the offense through your 5 is because all four other players are likely to be threats to shoot and drive past a close out. If you run the high post offense through your 4, you are still stuck with a low-skill 5 who teams will sag off of and use that help defender to jam up all the back door cuts.

Draymond can make it work while playing the 4 in Golden State to some degree because Curry has such insane gravity, but I don't think it's a blueprint that Deni can follow here.

Golden State won 73 games with Draymond as their small ball center. Distributing from the top of the key. That was a key feature of the small ball era. Draymond in the middle, shooters in motion.

Yes I was referencing Bam as well as the Joker when talking about these finals.

To make it really sing it is useful to have players who understand how to play off motion. Good read and react players who understand team play. It was in this role that I was spotlighting Deni and Kispert. Both have a good sense of timing and react well to split second openings. Deni just doesn't help provide anything on the outside to make it really work. He is faster than many 4's though. And passes well on the move, as a relay man. If he shot as well here as he did in Euro play, he'd be a much more useful player in that role.

Draymond has shot better in past years. Passably well from 3. Solid above the FT line.

Deni's lack of shooting doesn't help though Deni and Bam are about the same height at 6-9. Length is probably a big difference. Of course, you have a 7-3 unicorn who can shoot, assuming he returns. Though I think everybody is on the table and this thing is going to be ripped apart.

[nate33]

I agree that running an offense through a high post 5 is looking more and more like a very effective strategy in today's NBA. (Miami also does it a lot through Bam.) I'm not really sure how this relates to Draymond or Deni though. Those guys are too short and don't shoot well enough to be the high post focal point.

The really neat thing about running the offense through your 5 is because all four other players are likely to be threats to shoot and drive past a close out. If you run the high post offense through your 4, you are still stuck with a low-skill 5 who teams will sag off of and use that help defender to jam up all the back door cuts.

Draymond can make it work while playing the 4 in Golden State to some degree because Curry has such insane gravity, but I don't think it's a blueprint that Deni can follow here.

Golden State won 73 games with Draymond as their small ball center. Distributing from the top of the key. That was a key feature of the small ball era. Draymond in the middle, shooters in motion.

Yes I was referencing Bam as well as the Joker when talking about these finals.

To make it really sing it is useful to have players who understand how to play off motion. Good read and react players who understand team play. It was in this role that I was spotlighting Deni and Kispert. Both have a good sense of timing and react well to split second openings. Deni just doesn't help provide anything on the outside to make it really work. He is faster than many 4's though. And passes well on the move, as a relay man. If he shot as well here as he did in Euro play, he'd be a much more useful player in that role.

Draymond has shot better in past years. Passably well from 3. Solid above the FT line.

Yeah, when Draymond plays the 5 it works. It's passable when he plays the 4 because of Curry.

If Draymond is willing to play exclusively as a 5, then he might still have a lot of value league wide. I'm just saying that Draymond's value as a 4 isn't as portable.

[nate33]

BTW, I'm all in favor of running our offense through Porzingis as a high post 5. I feel like Wes Jr. experimented with that a bit with great success when we first acquired Porzingis, but he used a lot less this year. I don't understand why.

[The Consiglieri]

Considering I've been a fan of this train wreck for closer to forty years than thirty. I'll believe it when I see it, but so far, all the news is largely positive which is a great thing. Perhaps the seasonal stupidity disorder which impacts all the trade dreadlines (i just typed that, talk about a Freudian Slip) and the Draft and seasons in general may vanish into the ether and we'll at least perhaps approach competency, or perhaps even exceed it. Imagine that. Never in my fandom has that been true, particular quality offseasons here and there? Yeah, but sustained competence? Never. Exciting, for the first time in ages and ages, really since probably the 2010-2013 era.

[NatP4]

BTW, I'm all in favor of running our offense through Porzingis as a high post 5. I feel like Wes Jr. experimented with that a bit with great success when we first acquired Porzingis, but he used a lot less this year. I don't understand why.

Kuzma was out for that stretch.

[payitforward]

In my experience, & I don't just mean basketball, swapping my mistake for your mistake rarely leads to progress for either side.

Of course either of these guys might turn it around -- you don't close the door on guys their age. But... that's a selling point not a buying point if you follow me.

I'd a lot rather identify something I want (a player or a pick) & fold my mistake's "potential" (which is, after all, real in both cases) into what I'm offering to get it.

I think a 20-year-old Kuminga is a better prospect than the pick that we would get back if we traded Deni.

Fair enough; that is a line of thinking that makes perfect sense.

Plus -- & this is weird -- suppose for a moment that we followed my way of thinking & traded Deni for a pick. What if Kuminga had stayed in school & was in the draft that's coming up in a couple of weeks. In that case, obviously, following *my* line of thinking we might easily use the pick we got for Deni to take... Kuminga!

OTOH, of course, based solely on production so far, you might just as easily say that if GS traded Kuminga for a pick, they'd hope to get a better prospect than.. Kuminga. Of course they would -- otherwise why bother?

In short, between Deni & Kuminga (or any two guys), you can't reliably compare them based on Deni's reality ("here's what he's actually done") as against Kuminga's potential ("ignore what he's actually done -- think about what he might do in the future"). That is, you can do that of course, but it's shooting craps b/c you feel lucky.

[payitforward]

I don’t think GS makes the Kuminga for Avdija trade. Kuminga is almost a full 2 yrs younger than Deni and has shown enough in spurts to leave the impression that he has a fairly high upside.

Yeah, it would certainly go against conventional wisdom as Kuminga is considered a high upside guy with star potential, and Avdija looks like his destined to be more of a role player. But Golden State has a smart front office and a motivation to be good right now. I think, right now, Avdija is a better fit and may help Golden State win more games over the next 2-3 years than Kuminga.

That’s a good point. Deni would seem to fit better in the win-now mode that GS is in. Kuminga, on the other hand, is the kind of young, raw, athletic wing that a rebuilding team like the Zards should take a chance on.

Actually... this POV trumps what I wrote -- it makes perfect sense.

[Rafael122]

Can we group Monte Morris in a sign and trade involving Kuzma? Was thinking we ship out Morris and Kuzma to the Clippers for Covington and Mann.

[joshuacf]

Can we group Monte Morris in a sign and trade involving Kuzma? Was thinking we ship out Morris and Kuzma to the Clippers for Covington and Mann.

I'd hope to get more than that; Mann is decent but Covington is a negative asset. If Morris and Mann have similar values then we're basically gifting them Kuzma and taking on a negative contract in return.

I don't hate the idea of a trade with the Clippers, though. Bones Hyland, Brandon Boston, and Jason Preston are all guys who I'd have some level of interest in.

Maybe something like:

Wizards give:
Morris
Kuzma

Wizards get:
Eric Gordon
Brandon Boston
Bones Hyland or Jason Preston?

I'd be willing to throw in a 2nd if it was Hyland.

[payitforward]

Can we group Monte Morris in a sign and trade involving Kuzma? Was thinking we ship out Morris and Kuzma to the Clippers for Covington and Mann.

I'd hope to get more than that; Mann is decent but Covington is a negative asset. If Morris and Mann have similar values then we're basically gifting them Kuzma and taking on a negative contract in return.

I don't hate the idea of a trade with the Clippers, though. Bones Hyland, Brandon Boston, and Jason Preston are all guys who I'd have some level of interest in.

Maybe something like:

Wizards give:
Morris
Kuzma

Wizards get:
Eric Gordon
Brandon Boston
Bones Hyland or Jason Preston?

I'd be willing to throw in a 2nd if it was Hyland.

Can't say I like any of these trade ideas even a litte bit!
In any case, such a deal would depend on the Clippers giving Kuz an offer. Is there anything to suggest that they might do that?

As to who we'd be taking back, it seems obvious that neither Covington nor Eric Gordon is someone we have any reason to want.

As to Brandon Boston, he was terrible in 760 minutes as a rookie & then got only 250 minutes his 2d year & was even worse. He's unguaranteed for the coming year & seems unlikely to be brought back -- meaning that he has zero value in a trade. Pick him up for free if you like -- & I can imagine someone being tempted: coming out of high school he was #2 on the RSCI top 100 & went to Kentucky for a year. He also has good size. Still...

Why do you like Hyland? He got a little attention coming out of the '21 draft, but he certainly didn't play well as a rookie, & he didn't improve his 2d year either. As to Preston, he saw the floor for 120 minutes this rookie year & is also non-guaranteed.

& I really doubt they'd be eager to trade Terance Mann -- he was 3d on the team in minutes this year, & he put up quite good numbers (as he has all 4 years he's been in the league) & they have him on a high-value contract for the next two years.

[Jay81]

whatever happened to Josh Primo?

[joshuacf]

Can we group Monte Morris in a sign and trade involving Kuzma? Was thinking we ship out Morris and Kuzma to the Clippers for Covington and Mann.

I'd hope to get more than that; Mann is decent but Covington is a negative asset. If Morris and Mann have similar values then we're basically gifting them Kuzma and taking on a negative contract in return.

I don't hate the idea of a trade with the Clippers, though. Bones Hyland, Brandon Boston, and Jason Preston are all guys who I'd have some level of interest in.

Maybe something like:

Wizards give:
Morris
Kuzma

Wizards get:
Eric Gordon
Brandon Boston
Bones Hyland or Jason Preston?

I'd be willing to throw in a 2nd if it was Hyland.

Can't say I like any of these trade ideas even a litte bit!
In any case, such a deal would depend on the Clippers giving Kuz an offer. Is there anything to suggest that they might do that?

As to who we'd be taking back, it seems obvious that neither Covington nor Eric Gordon is someone we have any reason to want.

As to Brandon Boston, he was terrible in 760 minutes as a rookie & then got only 250 minutes his 2d year & was even worse. He's unguaranteed for the coming year & seems unlikely to be brought back -- meaning that he has zero value in a trade. Pick him up for free if you like -- & I can imagine someone being tempted: coming out of high school he was #2 on the RSCI top 100 & went to Kentucky for a year. He also has good size. Still...

Why do you like Hyland? He got a little attention coming out of the '21 draft, but he certainly didn't play well as a rookie, & he didn't improve his 2d year either. As to Preston, he saw the floor for 120 minutes this rookie year & is also non-guaranteed.

& I really doubt they'd be eager to trade Terance Mann -- he was 3d on the team in minutes this year, & he put up quite good numbers (as he has all 4 years he's been in the league) & they have him on a high-value contract for the next two years.

Well, Kuzma would help the Clippers as he could play significant minutes in the regular season so they could load-manage Kawaii and PG. I don't know for sure that they'd want to do that, of course. These trades are all hypotheticals!

Covington or Eric Gordon are salary match (and both expiring). We can't do a trade without taking salary back from the Clippers.

I have to disagree that Boston was even worse this year. He only got 250 minutes this year because he's playing behind PG, Kawaii, Mann, and Powell (got his name right this time!). But this year in the NBA he shot 41.4% from 3 and 76.3% from the line. Limited volume for sure. But he was also good in the G-League: 22.7 ppg, 46.4 FG%, 33.3 3P%, 84.2 FT%. Still only 21 years old. I think he's got upside.

Hyland didn't play well as a rookie? I have to strongly disagree with that. He was in the rotation for a 48-win playoff team. For his NBA career: 36.8 3P%, 85 FT%, 20.4 PTS per 36. Only 22. In his rookie year, Bones had a +2.3 offensive RAPTOR and a 2.28 ORPM. Beal last season had a +2.5 and a 1.90.

Preston was injured his rookie year, but he did some encouraging things in the G-League this year. 16.7 PPG, .480/.365/.844, 5.4 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.8 turnovers. A 3.8 a/t ratio is very solid. Only 23. It wouldn't hurt to take a chance on him for a season; maybe he turns out to be decent.

The reason for the trade would be to get young prospects who have a chance to develop. Morris and Kuzma aren't part of our long-term plans. Boston, Bones, or Preston could be. They're all young and have shown some potential. Only Bones has played real NBA minutes. In the case of Bones, I couldn't disagree more that he didn't show anything his rookie year. The advanced stats support that he was good. The Nuggets traded Morris to us because they expected Bones to be their 6th-man of the future! By all accounts, the Clippers plan on keeping him and playing him.

The reasons why we should trade for Boston and Preston if they have non-guaranteed contracts is twofold:

a) if we trade for them, we can guarantee ourselves that we get them. Boston in particular would have significant interest if he were to be cut by the Clippers. If that happens, who's to say he would sign with us?

b) I don't think that the Clippers are cutting Boston. https://213hoops.com/2023-clippers-exit-interview-brandon-boston-jr/

[NatP4]

Did you just use Raptor against PIF

[joshuacf]

What's wrong with offensive RAPTOR? From what I understand it's a good all-in-one metric.

[gambitx777]

Can we group Monte Morris in a sign and trade involving Kuzma? Was thinking we ship out Morris and Kuzma to the Clippers for Covington and Mann.

I'd hope to get more than that; Mann is decent but Covington is a negative asset. If Morris and Mann have similar values then we're basically gifting them Kuzma and taking on a negative contract in return.

I don't hate the idea of a trade with the Clippers, though. Bones Hyland, Brandon Boston, and Jason Preston are all guys who I'd have some level of interest in.

Maybe something like:

Wizards give:
Morris
Kuzma

Wizards get:
Eric Gordon
Brandon Boston
Bones Hyland or Jason Preston?

I'd be willing to throw in a 2nd if it was Hyland.

I don't think that money adds up. Kuz is looking for a significant increase. With Morris In the trade that would represent almost not raise in his current salary. Now if he opts in or we trade him before he indicates his choice, there is a small window in which I believe we can do that. That's different. I don't see him opting in unless it's under a wink wink deal to the traded team.



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[FAH1223]

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[joshuacf]

Can we group Monte Morris in a sign and trade involving Kuzma? Was thinking we ship out Morris and Kuzma to the Clippers for Covington and Mann.

I'd hope to get more than that; Mann is decent but Covington is a negative asset. If Morris and Mann have similar values then we're basically gifting them Kuzma and taking on a negative contract in return.

I don't hate the idea of a trade with the Clippers, though. Bones Hyland, Brandon Boston, and Jason Preston are all guys who I'd have some level of interest in.

Maybe something like:

Wizards give:
Morris
Kuzma

Wizards get:
Eric Gordon
Brandon Boston
Bones Hyland or Jason Preston?

I'd be willing to throw in a 2nd if it was Hyland.

I don't think that money adds up. Kuz is looking for a significant increase. With Morris In the trade that would represent almost not raise in his current salary. Now if he opts in or we trade him before he indicates his choice, there is a small window in which I believe we can do that. That's different. I don't see him opting in unless it's under a wink wink deal to the traded team.



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I ran it in a trade checker and it seemed to work. Kuzma signs for 21 a year, Morris on 9.8 for a total of 30.8. Eric Gordon is making 21, Boston is making 1.8, Bones 2.3 for a total of 25.1.

If necessary throw in Preston who’s making 1.8.