The Javale McGee Appreciation Thread

[manifested]

I have to ask. Who do you currently think is the most athletic bigman in the league?

I imagine most people would say Dwight Howard, but I don't really see him displaying the "elite post footwork coordination" you deem necessary for the title.

[WizarDynasty]

you can answer that question...pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett when is knee isn't bothering him, just look at a bigman you think is athletic and then ask the question...but does have have elite post footwork coordination..and bingo...you have got your answer. Blatche is definitely up there. Foot coordination is one the most important athletic attributes to being a bigman. Standing reach, strength, balance..alot of things but quick post foot coordination is definitely top three athletic attributes of a bigman--powerforward or center.

[pancakes3]

so when everyone, including basketball players, coaches, scouts, anonymous realgm posters, etc. say that Dwight and McGee are hyperathletic big men, they're wrong?

[montestewart]

so when everyone, including basketball players, coaches, scouts, anonymous realgm posters, etc. say that Dwight and McGee are hyperathletic big men, they're wrong?

Hyperathletic perhaps, but lacking in elite post footwork coordination, and thus, not athletic.

[WizarDynasty]

there are big men that show elite post footwork coordination....the raw ability to make explosive movements with their feet...they just haven't learned the actual post moves.
Then you have bigmen like haywood who have bricks for feet and show no coordination. What's the point teaching them elite post footwork coordination when their feet were bricks to begin with.
So again raw foot coordination that might was probably developed from another sport or activity or just god given.
an example on this team is kevin seraphin. he doesn't have alot actual elite post moves but show elite post footwork coordination if you look at some of the basic moves that he is able toe execute. his superior foot coordination shows even in his basic post moves.
if your a bigman with poor raw post footwork coordination...your athleticism needs to be downgraded significantly.

[verbal8]

It may be a little oversimplification, but I think athleticism can be thought of as having 3 dimensions(lateral, horizontal and vertical).

I think "lateral" athleticism(basically quickness of the feet)is what McGee is lacking.

Horizontal would be speed and acceleration. Overall top speed is not super important in basketball, but acceleration is part of what makes John Wall so hard to stop. For his size McGee does pretty well in this regard.

Vertically McGee is an elite athlete with his leaping ability. Important in this is not only top vertical leap, but how quickly you can get to that point.

I think there are a couple of other physical attributes(besides size) that could be included in athleticism that this definition misses. The most substantial is hand-eye coordination. I think McGee does pretty well in this. Another is stamina. This is primarily developed, but some people get more gain out of endurance training than others.

[montestewart]

It may be a little oversimplification, but I think athleticism can be thought of as having 3 dimensions(lateral, horizontal and vertical).

I think "lateral" athleticism(basically quickness of the feet)is what McGee is lacking.

Horizontal would be speed and acceleration. Overall top speed is not super important in basketball, but acceleration is part of what makes John Wall so hard to stop. For his size McGee does pretty well in this regard.

Vertically McGee is an elite athlete with his leaping ability. Important in this is not only top vertical leap, but how quickly you can get to that point.

I think there are a couple of other physical attributes(besides size) that could be included in athleticism that this definition misses. The most substantial is hand-eye coordination. I think McGee does pretty well in this. Another is stamina. This is primarily developed, but some people get more gain out of endurance training than others.

Maybe an oversimplification, but a useful one here. All three of those talent categories could be improved upon with training and can diminish with age or injury, but of the three, lateral quickness seems most likely to be impacted by training, coaching, smarts, practice, instinct, etc. In other words, with McGee and some others in the league, it's not necessarily that they are physically unable, but they just don't very well. With emphasis, good coaching and exposure to good examples, I could see McGee improving in this area. I could see Arenas doing the same. Whether they will...

[Ruzious]

there are big men that show elite post footwork coordination....the raw ability to make explosive movements with their feet...they just haven't learned the actual post moves.
Then you have bigmen like haywood who have bricks for feet and show no coordination. What's the point teaching them elite post footwork coordination when their feet were bricks to begin with.
So again raw foot coordination that might was probably developed from another sport or activity or just god given.
an example on this team is kevin seraphin. he doesn't have alot actual elite post moves but show elite post footwork coordination if you look at some of the basic moves that he is able toe execute. his superior foot coordination shows even in his basic post moves.
if your a bigman with poor raw post footwork coordination...your athleticism needs to be downgraded significantly.

Will somebody please tell EG the obvious place he should be looking for athletic big men? Just scout out the professional chacha dancer circuit and look for the tallest dancers.

[WizarDynasty]

javale was the best option at the time for EG, however its very rare to find starters outside the lottery. javale is bench player coming in for relief when you have bigs on the floor like michael ruffin who can't make layups. Then javale can cheat off his man for the weakside block.
javale does not have the quick foot coordination needed to be an above man to man an average defender in the post and he doesn't have the quick foot coordination to be a starting finesse big man powerforward or center offensively.
that mean javale comes off the bench to guard non offensive bigs.
That's what i see his role is unless he someone magically develops quick post foot coordination which I highly highly highly doubt will happen ever because your overall athleticism usually declines with age and injury..never really improves unless you have some revolutionary training regime.
no one ever said EG's job was easy and he got Seraphin, a guy who immediately becomes our best offensive post player...that's a helluva job by EG.

[verbal8]

no one ever said EG's job was easy and he got Seraphin, a guy who immediately becomes our best offensive post player...that's a helluva job by EG.

I like Seraphin a lot, but I think that next year Blatche will be the best offensive post player. In a year or two that could change.

Blatche hit 56% of his "close" shots last season, so he is an offensive threat in the post. He probably will do a little better with Wall getting him the ball this season.

[Illuminaire]

It may be a little oversimplification, but I think athleticism can be thought of as having 3 dimensions(lateral, horizontal and vertical).

+1

This is what I wanted to say earlier, but failed at. ^_^ Change of direction, moving his feet, keeping his balance (in certain situations), those are the areas McGee needs to work on. Thankfully, as Monte noted, those are areas that can be developed considerably with proper training.

[hands11]

It may be a little oversimplification, but I think athleticism can be thought of as having 3 dimensions(lateral, horizontal and vertical).

I think "lateral" athleticism(basically quickness of the feet)is what McGee is lacking.

Horizontal would be speed and acceleration. Overall top speed is not super important in basketball, but acceleration is part of what makes John Wall so hard to stop. For his size McGee does pretty well in this regard.

Vertically McGee is an elite athlete with his leaping ability. Important in this is not only top vertical leap, but how quickly you can get to that point.

I think there are a couple of other physical attributes(besides size) that could be included in athleticism that this definition misses. The most substantial is hand-eye coordination. I think McGee does pretty well in this. Another is stamina. This is primarily developed, but some people get more gain out of endurance training than others.

I agree. That is a little over simplified.

Horizontal and lateral are the same thing last I checked also.

Athletic is a lot of things.

Burst/Explosive. This is muscle fiber thing and body structure and it can apply to 0-60 straight forward, side to side and leaping.

Top speed and endurance. He has good top speed but with his lung issue is oxygen may be lacking.

Coordination. This happens in different categories also. Hand/Eye or Feet or all three. You can have great hands and be very coordinated that way without being coordinated with your feed and you can be coordinated with your feet doing straight without being coordinated side to side or with combining forward with side to side.

It's the ability to put all these things together with high basketball IQ and a mental fire for toughness that makes a Mike Jordan. Simply a freak. And 6-6 was a good height to get the most from each category. Doing at 7-1 is a lot harder.

As for McGees feet. I don't think anyone can say he has stopped developing there. Him adding an extra inch to an already long 7-0 inexperienced frame is going to effect your foot coordination. He is very coordinated with his body control and hand eye coordination. But at 7-1 and green, he does get off balance when making post moves. He does much better moving forward where he know what he want to do next...LEAP TO THE HOOP. But as seen in that one video, even he doesn't make it there, he can make it up on the fly as he pulled the ball back while still in the air and adjusted his shot to put it in before he landed. That is freakish athleticism for a 7-1 dude. So was the around the back move which I'm sure he practiced so he know what he wanted to do. Again. Experience.

And all those alley opps take a great deal of hand/eye and body control. He makes them look easy he is so athletic. And the wind mill dunk take a lot of timing an body control also.

What he lacks is experience to make the post moves. An experience post move player knows what he wants to do and were he wants his feet to go next. The make quick read, then a move then maybe a counter move if he guessed right. McGee doesn't have that. He is trying to out athletics the other player and just get ahead of himself. Combine that with a lighter frame and and 7-1 height and your feet are going to get crossed up.


Summary. He is an 7-1 athletic freak who lacks experience. He has great hand eye coordination. What he had also lack was enough strength and mature. Those are things that can change. He is only coming into his 3rd year and just grow an inch more. And he wasn't overly experienced to begin with. Honestly, the idea of questioning his athleticism is kind of silly. That all he is getting by on.

Lastly, what will make him great is fitting him and his desire to be great with the position on a team that is open. Back to square one. I think he wants to be a PF more than a center and both require playing defense if you want to be a starter. At least in my book.

[hands11]

McGee wants to be a finesse offensive bigman powerforward but without elite post footwork coordination he will never become one. McGee is quite old 23 and has passed his window of opportunity to develop highly coordinated post footwork.
Roy Hibbert always had strenght, McGee has never had strength so those two shouldn't be compared.
Comparing McGee to Kevin Garnett is probably better since both of them are skinny but very long.

And so we come full circle. You say compare him more to Garnett. I have been saying compare him more to a more athletic Dray. Some thing. Just two different ways of saying it.

And a totally agree with what Doc was saying and have been saying that. Its McGee beings so athletic and so immature that gets in his way of becoming a great center. And to that, its that he doesn't really want to be one. Just like Nick but in a different way. NIck wants to be a Gil and McGee wants to be a Dray/Garnett.

I see the path to him being a true center and being good at it as a long path then him being useful as a PF. But in the mean time, he can be a hybrid when on the floor with Dray.

But camp will be here soon enough. Maybe Flip can get the most out of him. Thats what great coaches do.

[WizarDynasty]

McGee wants to be a finesse offensive bigman powerforward but without elite post footwork coordination he will never become one. McGee is quite old 23 and has passed his window of opportunity to develop highly coordinated post footwork.
Roy Hibbert always had strenght, McGee has never had strength so those two shouldn't be compared.
Comparing McGee to Kevin Garnett is probably better since both of them are skinny but very long.

And so we come full circle. You say compare him more to Garnett. I have been saying compare him more to a more athletic Dray. Some thing. Just two different ways of saying it.

And a totally agree with what Doc was saying and have been saying that. Its McGee beings so athletic and so immature that gets in his way of becoming a great center. And to that, its that he doesn't really want to be one. Just like Nick but in a different way. NIck wants to be a Gil and McGee wants to be a Dray/Garnett.

I see the path to him being a true center and being good at it as a long path then him being useful as a PF. But in the mean time, he can be a hybrid when on the floor with Dray.

But camp will be here soon enough. Maybe Flip can get the most out of him. Thats what great coaches do.

Problem is that mcgee never had elite foot coordination coming into the league and after three years he still doesn't.

Blatche and garnett both had great foot coordination coming into the league.
Blatche can't jump like garnett.
Mcgee can jump but doesn't have foot coordination.
Mcgee's lack of foot coordination is deadly because he also doesn't have any strength.
How is mcgee going to score consistently in the post if he doesn't have decent foot coordination and quick first step...and B no lower leg strength..yet he thinks of himself as an offensive big.
Blatche and garnett have elite foot coordination in the post if all else fails. Mcgee never will have elite foot coordination in the post. Mcgee is not in the same league as far as big man athleticism relative to blatche and garnett.
In fact mcgee has extremely poor foot coordination in the post and can barely keep his balance if even slight nudged. That to me I'd extrememly unathletic.
So to say he is a more athletic dray without even being close to dray in foot coordination in the post is kind of backwards. Mcgee aint even close to dray when it comes to overall bigman athleticism that counts towards winning games.

[doclinkin]

It's stupid to continue this argument. McGee has plenty athleticism to play Center, you need little lateral speed to stay within a step or two of the basket. There are any number of players with less than stellar quick-twitch speed and awkward footwork who carved out superlative careers in the game

Arvydas Sabonis, Robert Parish, Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Marc Gasol has only recently altered his body from a tub of goo to merely plodding, he has fine footwork due to constant drills in technique not due to innate talent.

Vlade Divac was neither strong nor quick in any sense, he was just clever and played with heart. Who would assert that Bill Laimbeer or even Kevin McHale had better raw athleticism than Lemonhead McGee? Brad Miller is as 'athletic' as a pillar of cheddar. Not trying to pick on the white dudes, just walking through a list of players 6'10" or bigger, okay Bill Cartwright: about as gangly and awkward a player as you can get. He moved like he was walking through a roomful of toddler's toys and didn't want to crush any of 'em. Slow, had a wind-up for his shot as slow as a siege catapult, more tough than he was strong.

That last point is key. There is absolutely nothing physically holding McGee back from success. He has far better than the minimum needed for physical success starting with the most obvious trait: kid is tall. Naturally athletically tall. He's well strong enough to play the position, ask Brendan Haywood's shattered wrist, (busted trying to block skinny rookie JaVale at the rim).

I expect him to gain a bit of muscle mass, that will only help, but where it will help most is in his confidence. The primary thing that gets in his way is lack of perspective and understanding on how he best helps his team. And his focus. Right now he's playing for oohs and aahs. Not W's vs L's. Losing doesn't hurt his feelings or anger him.

This is a key reason I want the team to try for the playoffs if possible. Playoff success is what turns young talent into veterans. There is no high like do or die. Once you've tasted it, everything else means nothing. And this is where true fame and peer respect is earned, not regular season applause for one flashy dunk in a loss, one sportscenter loop block, but your man scored 20+ on you.

The question ain't if JaVale CAN do it. He can-- hell he's even shown a baseline drop step move, a few low-post moves with good footwork that look like a skyhook but turn to a jam in a way that nobody else can replicate. But he just has to want to. And to get comfortable with some basics and fundamentals, but you know, actually practicing them. Not by running guard drills with Tyreke Evans for 45 minutes then talking about how tough a workout it was, how tired he is.

I'm looking forward to KSeraphin joining the team in some large measure because he will push JaVale to get better. Literally push. And in the low-post work, the fact that Seraphin is 3 inches shorter will help JV learn how to actually use that length to best advantage against players like Paul Millsap, Al Horford or whomever, where the height mismatch may occasionally give him a claar advantage. The practice match-up, I'd love to watch a cam feed, it should help both of 'em.

[doclinkin]

garnett [...] had great foot coordination coming into the league.

No. He didn't. He was more raw than McGee. More perimeter oriented.

He learned proper footwork and technique from one of the more physically awkward but best skilled power forwards ever in Kevin McHale. He had the ideal tutor for his natural gifts. And the emotional, mental capacity to listen then to put in the work.

What Garnett has (more than anyone not named Mike Jordan) is a competitive frenzy. He will put in the work to improve because it unmans him when he loses. He hates. He cares enough to hate to lose.

[WizarDynasty]

All the players u mention that didn't have good foot coordination were not "weaklings" when they came into the league. Even brad miller was 100 times stringer than mcgee. Again mcgee has been in the league three years and has shown no improvements in strength. 3 years is a long time. Also in three years he has shown almost no improvement in foot coordination. Haywood didn't show improvement in foot coordination after how mnay years?
McGee wants to be an offensive star but doesn't have the most important athletic attribute to be a bigman offensive star. Elite raw foot coordination.
When he accepts his limitations maybe he could be a marcus camby tyson chandler garbage man.

Mcgee is never going to have lower body strength and he is never going to have elite post foot coordination. Mcgee's athleticism does not translate into useful bigman athleticism. He is a bench player. Seraphin is way more athletic at useful bigman duties that mcgee.
Mcgee will never have a strong lower body and he will never and elite foot coordination. He is not going to grow into at age 23. Either u have it by now or u don't. People kept expecting haywood to get better with coordination...not understanding that your raw coordination is genetic. If u have high raw coordination you pick up post footwork quickly. Mcgee has taken an awfully long time to show us anything in regards to elite post footwork because...why he never had it to begin with. Blatche and garnett had it when they entered the league at 18. Haywood and mcgee never had it and never will.
Haywood did have some lower leg strength to move people around. Mcgee doesn't have that either. Two deadly strikes for a bigman to not have. He is a bench player.

[pancakes3]

i've got to hand it to you wizD. you never fail to deliver with your annual physio breakdowns. however "foot coordination" is usually just parsed down to "footwork" and it is most definitely a learned skill. no matter how much spin you want to put on it, how many players you want to invoke, it's a skill. if you go down to a court and ask the guys there if footwork is a skill, you'll get a unanimous "yes". if you go to the local HS and ask their coaches you'll get a weird look and another unanimous "yes". if you sneak your way to GTown and ask John Thompson III if footwork is "god-given athleticism" or "developed skill" you'll find the same answer. If you go down to the Verizon Center and flag down the coaching staff (including sam cassell, one of the better post up guards in recent memory)... yup. you guessed it. skill.

it's completely false to say "if you have raw coordination you pick up post footwork quickly". there is no such thing as "raw coordination". coordination is just essentially muscle memory. sure flexibility and agility play a role, but it's 90 % practice practice practice. nobody can pick up a basketball, dribble it around for a few weeks and become Pau Gasol. it takes YEARS to develop that level of post game. in fact, most post moves are almost robotic. look at duncan. "mr. fundamental". it's FUNDAMENTALS!

also, nobody is expecting mcgee to develop awesome footwork. all we're asking is that he does very simple things like not leaving his feet, stay in front of his man, and keep his arms up. none of those have anything to do with explosive foot moves.

hahaha...
every year wizD. i tell myself not to respond and yet... here we are again.


oh, and i'll be keeping a close eye on your boy Aminu this season to see if the bowleggedness pays off.

[hands11]

All the players u mention that didn't have good foot coordination were not "weaklings" when they came into the league. Even brad miller was 100 times stringer than mcgee. Again mcgee has been in the league three years and has shown no improvements in strength. 3 years is a long time. Also in three years he has shown almost no improvement in foot coordination. Haywood didn't show improvement in foot coordination after how mnay years?
McGee wants to be an offensive star but doesn't have the most important athletic attribute to be a bigman offensive star. Elite raw foot coordination.
When he accepts his limitations maybe he could be a marcus camby tyson chandler garbage man.

Mcgee is never going to have lower body strength and he is never going to have elite post foot coordination. Mcgee's athleticism does not translate into useful bigman athleticism. He is a bench player. Seraphin is way more athletic at useful bigman duties that mcgee.
Mcgee will never have a strong lower body and he will never and elite foot coordination. He is not going to grow into at age 23. Either u have it by now or u don't. People kept expecting haywood to get better with coordination...not understanding that your raw coordination is genetic. If u have high raw coordination you pick up post footwork quickly. Mcgee has taken an awfully long time to show us anything in regards to elite post footwork because...why he never had it to begin with. Blatche and garnett had it when they entered the league at 18. Haywood and mcgee never had it and never will.
Haywood did have some lower leg strength to move people around. Mcgee doesn't have that either. Two deadly strikes for a bigman to not have. He is a bench player.

Two years. If you can't get that right no one is likely to listen past that.

Look, you want people to consider your view yet you listen to nothing being said back and just ignore facts. Then you state things are facts as 100 percent certain when they are only how you feel.

Its two years. Two coaches. On a team that was blown up last year. First coach was a terrible defensive teacher. KG logged 5200 minutes in his first two years and was the 5th pick. JaVale has played 2100 minutes and was 18th drafted.

This is all the same stuff that was sad about Dray and I'm giving all the same answers about McGee that I did Dray. So how did things work out for Dray last year. I guess you were probably one of the ones that was squarely behind Dray the whole way right ?

So JaVale is a bench player on a good time right now. So what. This isn't a completed team right now. The kid will get his chances and he will get better. And he has a lot of upside/potential.

He could still become a very good or if we are lucky great player. At what position ? I don't know.
When? we will see. But he is athletic. He added 7 pounds of muscle. He is only 22. He was a good choice and his future is in his hands. Everyone knows he has question surrounding him but for you to act like you know something as fact about what he will become is kind of funny.

[doclinkin]

Out of curiosity WizNasty, does Brook Lopez have the raw foot coordination to succeed in the league?

I understand he's doomed to being an uncoordinated weakling since he came into the league the same age JaVale did, and only pushed the bench press 7 times, while posting an even worse figure on your favorite stat (last year) of lane agility.

Here's another question, who has the better ability to assess basketball skill: Rajon Rondo, teammate of Kevin Garnett and player about whom his coach Doc Rivers says he's the bar none smartest player he's ever coached or played with, -OR- our boy Wiznasty?

Because at the USA training camp Rajon said about JaVale: 'I'm sure he's the most athletic Big in the league', at least top 5, but probably #1. Vid here. Feel free to also contradict Derrick Rose who says 'he could be one of the best players in the league if he just put his MIND to it'. Mind, not uncoordinated and helplessly doomed skinny legs.

Thing I love about WizDy is even when he's wrong he's doggedly determinedly wrong. "And THAT's the reason I'm a Bullets fan..."