Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust

[Nivek]

If you're going to attempt to claim tha Earl Barron performed better than Okafor, there's not much productive left to say.

Okafor took some minutes, but he didn't play a ton -- about 26 mpg, if I recall correctly. Nene played about the same, I think and missed games too.

To Vesely a moment-- he could have come to camp in great shape and with improved skills. He didn't. I don't see how bringing in Okafor prevented him from working out. He wasn't ready for camp. The coaching staff did what coaches do with a guy who has limitations -- they tried to come up with something he could do. They started him 4 straight games early in the season and he was awful in all of them.

I have a problem with the notion that a guy is so emotionally fragile that he can't deal with the team bringing in new players at his spot. Maybe I'm hardhearted, but I don't want someone on my team who effectively quits before the competition even begins.

If Okafor was soooo bad (he wasn't), he should have been easy pickings for a spry kid who can run circles around him and jump over him with ease. But, instead of outplaying or outhustling or outanythinging Okafor, Vesely showed up out of shape and was one of the league's worst players.

[nate33]

Preach, Nivek.

And CCJ, Okafor was in shape at the start of the season. He was a little rusty because he had offseason surgery on his knee, but he was a chiseled as ever. Even though he had a bad November shooting the ball, he was still light years better than Vesely at rebounding and defense. Implying that Okafor got any special treatment at the start of the season is absurd. Okafor played because he was the best big man on the team outside of Nene.

[hands11]

CCJ,

I don't think there are people on here that don't understand how things changed and how it affected the younger players.

But what you leave out is why they made those changes. I submit its because Wall and Beal were bigger priorities to get set first. Getting them to the playoffs and developing their games and confidence was the main goal. And took adding some experienced vets to a baby young team. Well the expiring Lewis contract was a asset they didn't want to just toss out and that contract allowed them to get Wall and Beal that help.

They still have Kevin, Ves and Singleton. If they want to fit in with an improved team, they can do it. They just have to put in the work and give the team the things they are asking for.

Personally, I have zero issue with management choosing Wall and Beal over the others.

And you know I have supported Ves like you are now. He does have some physical talent and some skills. But if he wants to get more court time and earn a role on the team, he has to at a min be a confident FT shooter. That isn't asking very much from an NBA player making millions.

There is simply no excuse for him not be able to hit at least 70 % from the line. He isn't uncoordinated. He doesn't even have bad form.

He can still become a good role player and if you can do that, you can by time to develop his game and confidence. Longer term he needs to be able to hit a wide open mid range. You just add those two very achievable skills to his game, and he could become a decent player which will extend his career so he can develop more.

Simply being a confident FT shooter. Thats all. And that is all on him. Period. Its the fact that he can't even get that done that is the tell tell sign that he is in bust territory. Fixing that would start to make people believe things could get better. If it stays the same, people will just throw there hands in the air.

No team is going to adjust what it is doing for a player like that. And they shouldn't.

But if he wants to stick around for the vet min on a one year deal, I'm sure some team would pay him that and see if a little more time helps get him straight. But even that team will expect him to work on something as basic as making a FT.

hands, I think the primary reason Ted and Ernie traded for Okafor and Ariza was to get something for the money Ted would pay in a buy out. Ariza and Okafor struggled and did not appear in any playoffs with New Orleans immediately before the trade, I don't recall a plan where they were acquired to save Wall and Beal. No one in management as I recall pronounced the deal as a move toward making the playoffs or playing winning basketball for Wall and Beal by benching Jan Vesely.

Besides, the confidence of Wall and Beal might have been raised had Lewis been amnestied. Washington could have acquired veterans like Ilyasova, Ryan Anderson, and Danny Green.

I agree Vesely needs to be a confident FT shooter. He did shoot better each month that his minutes increased as a rookie.

His April 2012 FT shooting 62.5% was not that far off 70%. Vesely's rookie FT shooting virtually matched Tiago Splitter's rookie year FT shooting. Splitter played heavy minutes despite his 54.3% rookie year. The next season his minutes remained high and he shot 69.1%. The next 73.0%. I believe Vesely's 53.2% went down to 30.8% playing less minutes.

hands, how many bigs who play 12 or less minutes a game develop into confident FT shooters if they started poor FT shooters? No excuse for Jan but his splits show confidence with increased minutes. He might look less like a bust with MORE minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bile=false

The only quibble I have, hands, is with your suggestion of Vesely coming up to what the organization wants if he wants to fit in. I think asking JV to accept far less minutes, to change his body, to play a different role, to play under a different coach who may be less supportive than the fired coach who drafted Jav, and to only practice against established vet is unreasonable.

I think he should hit FTs and get in peak physical shape at the lighter weight he played best at.

Ask for a trade or release rather than waste time. Vesely should strive to be a consummate pro (fit, confident, able to hit FTs , great at 240 and not 260 where he loses his mobility and quickness) but one ready to be a former Wizard IMO.

Well it was both. They wanted vets to help Wall and Beal and Ted wasn't going to buy out Lewis and amnesty Dray. I said that then. It just wasn't going to happen.

They wanted Dray gone. I didn't agree. I thought his value could have been salvaged, but I do understand they wanted to clean up that mess. And Ted paid a huge price to do it. Hey, at least he made a strong decision. And he ponied up. He put him money where his mouth is to get the kind of team he wanted. 25M worth on his money to do it. But once they did that, there was no way he was going to pay Lewis as well. That contract was an asset and he used it to bring in solid vet help for Wall and Beal. There was no guarantee any of those FAs were going to come here. And in making that move, he broke the Lewis contact in half and preserved its take value. Only now that value is attached to players that can actually play.

So as a package of decisions, the moves make sense. Dray done, vets added. And on short contracts that can get traded, let expire, or the players maybe resigned. And so far the plan seems to have worked.

Its up to Ves, Kevin and Singleton to earn their slots. This isn't the pee wee league. Well Kevin seems to have gotten a clue and is sticking around to work with Randy. Ves, he doesn't seem to get it. He is still looking for excuses instead of manning up to the challenge.

I like being a fan of younger players that end up on the Wizards roster, and I like to maximize the value of picks, but sometimes you have to cut bait and move on. Specially as you learn more about players and you try to project them as playoff level players. You can't always maximize value in this league because there is an opportunity cost of not picking the next productive player when available. You can't hold roster spots for players that don't seem to get it. That's why Nick and McGee are gone.

[hands11]

I have a little sympathy for the argument that Vesely, Singleton and Seraphin lost minutes because the team made the OkAriza deal. Only a little, though. The team, in effect, asked the Grundeld Kids to compete for their minutes. In various forms, all three shrank from the competition, which is bad for guys who want a place in a league as competitive as the NBA.

Vesely showed some promise as a rookie, but came to camp out of shape and with no discernible improvement in any basketball skill.

Singleton showed not a bit of improvement in any area of his game.

Seraphin shot more (and worse), never adjusted to how he was being defensed (resulting in rampant turnovers), and did even less board work.

If they want to be good players, all three need major work on their bodies and their games. And they need to somehow obtain a competitive attitude that makes them want to win playing time, win individual battles against opponents and help their team win games. That wasn't there last year. They were presented with a challenge. All three basically declined to compete for minutes, and for the most that carried over into their on-court performance.

Except I would say Kevin S actually did show some improvement late in the year.

He did start to get better at passing out of the double teams. And he did show some signs of moving toward the basket with more power. But it was very last in the year when he did it so some may have forgotten.

But for me, it was much to little way to late. He should have shown at a min a much better focus on moving toward the basket and rebounding way earlier. Learning to pass out of the double teams, I can except him learning that latter because that was a result of team actually starting to double him, which is a good sign he was becoming a good treat on offense.

Kevin is clearly ahead of that pack of 3. I think he will improve his skills. What I worry most about Kevin is will he mature and become more of a beast warrior, because that is who he needs to be. He has a little to much smiley Nick in him for like tastes.

A good team can only have so many young questionable project types. Well for me, Wall and Beal moved out of the project category last year. If they want to add those late 2nds as projects or a 1st thats a project, they can't also hold onto all three of Kevin, Ves and Singleton as projects.

Dump Singleton.
Keep Kevin
Leave Ves overseas ( if that is possible ) or send him to the DL or trade him.

That would open things up to add players like Jackie Carmichael, Colton Iverson, Erik Murphy

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Preach, Nivek.

And CCJ, Okafor was in shape at the start of the season. He was a little rusty because he had offseason surgery on his knee, but he was a chiseled as ever. Even though he had a bad November shooting the ball, he was still light years better than Vesely at rebounding and defense. Implying that Okafor got any special treatment at the start of the season is absurd. Okafor played because he was the best big man on the team outside of Nene.

He got minutes and his play sucked. Veterans get the benefit of a doubt.

Rookie contract players don't. I can't find where Vesely was injured but I believe he was, in addition to being told to gain weight.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I would trade Seraphin because I know what kind of player he is and because he has the most value. I would dump Singleton for a future second round pick. I would watch Vesely improve in his third season the same way Wall did.

Vesely is the guy I would try the hardest to salvage.

He is pretty uniquely gifted when utilized the right way. He won't be as good as a standard sixth pick; but he can do useful things when used the right way. JV can help the Wizards if they are patient.

[Kanyewest]

Interesting note on Vesley is that he suffered an Achilles injury in last year's summer league and he said that he wasn't able to work out in the offseason. Maybe that's why his game regressed.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Interesting note on Vesley is that he suffered an Achilles injury in last year's summer league and he said that he wasn't able to work out in the offseason. Maybe that's why his game regressed.

nate, this is why he came in "out of shape".

I hear the Vesely hate and know I've alienated and probably seem defiant. Look back at Nivek's post on Vesely's PPA. Check his 10/10 per-36 over one month. Check the six consecutive wins with him starting on a Wizards team that had a stretch four.

What changed was the roster, his role, he was asked to gain weight, to change position, and Vesely suffered an injury in simmer league.

My original point: Vesely was useful before and he can be again.

My commentary is fans are accustomed to criticizing players but rarely do fans consider factors contributing to decreased productivity. It would be easy to turn the player into a broken mess and run him back to Europe. The more beneficial thing would be to rehabilitate Vesely's confidence and play him where he's comfortable and most effective.

[sfam]

Interesting note on Vesley is that he suffered an Achilles injury in last year's summer league and he said that he wasn't able to work out in the offseason. Maybe that's why his game regressed.

nate, this is why he came in "out of shape".

I hear the Vesely hate and know I've alienated and probably seem defiant. Look back at Nivek's post on Vesely's PPA. Check his 10/10 per-36 over one month. Check the six consecutive wins with him starting on a Wizards team that had a stretch four.

What changed was the roster, his role where he was asked to gain weight and to change position, and he suffered an injury in simmer league.

My original point: Vesely was useful before and he can be again.

My commentary is fans are accustomed to criticizing players but rarely do fans consider factors contributing to decreased productivity. It would be easy to turn the player into a broken mess and run him back to Europe. The more beneficial thing would be to rehabilitate Vesely's confidence and play him where he's comfortable and most effective.

Vesely clearly has the capability to be useful. From the recent interview, it sounds like he's ready to work his butt off. Still, there's only an outside chance he gets it together. At a minimim, he's got to make over 65% FTs, and rebound effectively, otherwise its just not worth it. I like that Ves' goal was 9 and 9. If he can average that while doing the little things he'll be worth keeping.

[hands11]

Preach, Nivek.

And CCJ, Okafor was in shape at the start of the season. He was a little rusty because he had offseason surgery on his knee, but he was a chiseled as ever. Even though he had a bad November shooting the ball, he was still light years better than Vesely at rebounding and defense. Implying that Okafor got any special treatment at the start of the season is absurd. Okafor played because he was the best big man on the team outside of Nene.

He got minutes and his play sucked. Veterans get the benefit of a doubt.

Rookie contract players don't. I can't find where Vesely was injured but I believe he was, in addition to being told to gain weight.

He had a hip issue I think. Or was that his rookie year?

But of course players that have a proven record of producing and are getting paid get the benefit. We aren't talking R Lewis on a dead contract, we are talking Okafor. He is a double double professional.

I just fail to see where the Wizards did anything wrong here except for draft Ves at #6 to begin with. Only things that ever made sense to me was that they wanted to try for a defensive infusion and suck because they saw better players in the next draft that could score. Jonas Valanciunas would have worked better for them because they could stash him but he was gone already. So they swung on Ves for the upside because he actually does know how to play the intangible part of the game. A stronger Ves with a mid range, FT% of 70% and better work ethic, would be a pretty decent player. Someone worth investing more time in. Someone who in time could be actually a good consistent player. But he needs to grown between the ears more then anything. There is nothing stopping Ves from being a totally legit NBA player except for him to make it happen.

But he has to go earn it. No one is going to just give it to him. This team is past that stage.

But in the last 3 draft, the Wizards landed Wall and Beal who are two complete studs. They swung for the fences with Ves and so far, it looks like they are standing at a 2 strike count. They/he get one more good swing at this to see if they can get on base and generate a run.

Having hit and scored on two draft with Wall and Beal and on the verge of striking out with Ves, the Wizards need to generate another hit and scored run in this draft. They can't swing for the fences again.

3 out of 4 draft that you score Wall/Beal level talent, and your front office is doing well.
2 out of 4, and they suck.

Go for the sure thing players with upside. The list is Burke, VO, McLemore and Zeller. Pick one and move one.

For me, I think its down to Burke vs VO and Burke makes more players better. VO could become a Wade. Burke a baby CP3. Those are your two best choices in my book. Zeller would be nice, but he kills any chance of Ves making it and he limits the room for Kevin S to make it. Adding him makes other players worth less. Adding Burke makes other players worth more.

Or maybe Len if you did enough homework to know more about him then I can tell from here.

[hands11]

I would trade Seraphin because I know what kind of player he is and because he has the most value. I would dump Singleton for a future second round pick. I would watch Vesely improve in his third season the same way Wall did.

Vesely is the guy I would try the hardest to salvage.

He is pretty uniquely gifted when utilized the right way. He won't be good to a sixth pick but useful things he can do when used the right way can help the Wizards

Then you should support us drafting Burke.

He would be the best thing to help salvage Ves. That 2nd unit needs a real PG so all their incomplete skill sets can get maximized and grown.


http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/06/the ... price.html

Honza, when was the first time during the season that you had thoughts about saying goodbye to the NBA?

In November, in December… we finished the training camp, the season began, and I didn’t play. Whereas at the end of my rookie season I played a solid amount of minutes, so there was some frustration. But just being there [in the NBA] is a huge accomplishment, and staying there—it’s a great thing.

WOW. That chair folded quickly. He never even showed up for the challenge.

How many times have you heard from Grobari that they want you to return to play for Partizan?

I keep hearing it all the time. Minimally, 100 times a year. “Come back, come back!” and they always keep reminding me of the video from my last Partizan game.

Exactly what I expected. Its easier over there and he was loved over there so his mind was over there instead of what he needed to do here. Well guess what Ves, they are also paying you a **** ton over here.

When they change my style thrice in two seasons, it doesn’t help my head.

Ok, there you have it. Three times in two seasons.

There is a lot of weird shooting strokes in the NBA, for example Shawn Marion, and apparently no one changed anything about his shot. Why change yours?

I don’t know why myself. But I’d be glad if it stays as it is now.

Isn’t it time to say something to them and stand by your opinion?

Probably, yeah, I wouldn’t want to change my shot again. Starting in early June, I’ll spend a couple months in Los Angeles, where I’ll work out with my Slovenian coach. I requested from the team that he would work out with me—we’ll work on everything, including 1-on-1 play. I need to improve that in order to attack the basket more. I’ll listen to his advice.

Well at least it sounds like the tweaking of his shot is done and he can settle in with it now.

How much did the Achilles injury slow you down in your 2012 offseason workouts?

Quite a bit. It happened to me at the end of the 2012 Summer League, and I had stop working out for three weeks in August. I could have worked out more if I was healthy.

[hands11]

Vesely on his playing weight:

During my second season I weighed around 242 pounds, which was about seven pounds more than I had in my first NBA season. I think if I were 253, packing on more pounds of muscle, that would be cool. The Wizards want me weighing even more than that, but I won’t overdo it.

Good. So he know where he wants to be that he would feel comfortable and he showed some back bone in deciding where he will draw the line. Its not all about weight, its about strength.

After reading all of that, I have some hope he can settle in with his new shooting form and his new body. Last year was clearly a challenge for him. But this year he should get that chance to some something during the summer. Just stay healthy Ves. Get your work in. Get your shot practiced. And then go fight for your spot.

Another version of the interview.
http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/06/jan ... ation.html

[Dat2U]

I would trade Seraphin because I know what kind of player he is and because he has the most value. I would dump Singleton for a future second round pick. I would watch Vesely improve in his third season the same way Wall did.

Vesely is the guy I would try the hardest to salvage.

He is pretty uniquely gifted when utilized the right way. He won't be good to a sixth pick but useful things he can do when used the right way can help the Wizards

Then you should support us drafting Burke.

He would be the best thing to help salvage Ves. That 2nd unit needs a real PG so all their incomplete skill sets can get maximized and grown.

I see no point in trying to salvage the next Jared Jeffries. It's a waste of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

And if Wall can't help Ves, and for a while the excuse was Ves needed Wall, then why in the world would you think Trey Burke can do any better?

This is not about a guy needing better teammates or someone to play with. This is about a lazy bust who did nothing to improve his game over the course of two seasons. Okafor & Ariza didn't stop him, not working enough on his game did. Yall sound like I did 8 years ago when I kept making excuses for Kwame Brown. At least he showed a glimmer of potential, which is far more than what Vesely has ever showed.

[tontoz]

This thread should be locked. This bum doesn't deserve his own thread.

We should probably create a new thread entitled "Ernie's kids" to discuss his draft misteps.

[DANNYLANDOVER]

This thread should be locked. This bum doesn't deserve his own thread.

We should probably create a new thread entitled "Ernie's kids" to discuss his draft misteps.

+1...can't be crying over spilled milk...we can draft someone better than Ves in the 2nd rd in this draft. Why waste resources and pay him $4 mil to ride the pine?

[verbal8]

This thread should be locked. This bum doesn't deserve his own thread.

We should probably create a new thread entitled "Ernie's kids" to discuss his draft misteps.

+1...can't be crying over spilled milk...we can draft someone better than Ves in the 2nd rd in this draft. Why waste resources and pay him $4 mil to ride the pine?

The wizards are stuck with him for this year. I don't see any way he should get the final year picked up. At this point his upside looks like a 3 or 4 million year energy player.

[Knighthonor]

This thread should be locked. This bum doesn't deserve his own thread.

We should probably create a new thread entitled "Ernie's kids" to discuss his draft misteps.

+1...can't be crying over spilled milk...we can draft someone better than Ves in the 2nd rd in this draft. Why waste resources and pay him $4 mil to ride the pine?

John Wall hired his own personal shooter trainer.

Man. it blew up as we saw the results. He went SSJ3 out there.

I cant help but desire somebody in the Wizard's staff pay for some kind of world class trainer for Jan like Wall did. Because they gut has the measures, just need the skill and confidence.

Jan with a shot, a FT shot, some better handle, Drive Skills, would be clear beast to go with his defensive awareness.

maybe I am being over positive, but I just trying to avoid being negative on these issues.

[sashae]

I think this has been a long time coming:

HE A BUST, HE A BUST.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Preach, Nivek.

And CCJ, Okafor was in shape at the start of the season. He was a little rusty because he had offseason surgery on his knee, but he was a chiseled as ever. Even though he had a bad November shooting the ball, he was still light years better than Vesely at rebounding and defense. Implying that Okafor got any special treatment at the start of the season is absurd. Okafor played because he was the best big man on the team outside of Nene.

He got minutes and his play sucked. Veterans get the benefit of a doubt.

Rookie contract players don't. I can't find where Vesely was injured but I believe he was, in addition to being told to gain weight.

He had a hip issue I think. Or was that his rookie year?

But of course players that have a proven record of producing and are getting paid get the benefit. We aren't talking R Lewis on a dead contract, we are talking Okafor. He is a double double professional.

I just fail to see where the Wizards did anything wrong here except for draft Ves at #6 to begin with. Only things that ever made sense to me was that they wanted to try for a defensive infusion and suck because they saw better players in the next draft that could score. Jonas Valanciunas would have worked better for them because they could stash him but he was gone already. So they swung on Ves for the upside because he actually does know how to play the intangible part of the game. A stronger Ves with a mid range, FT% of 70% and better work ethic, would be a pretty decent player. Someone worth investing more time in. Someone who in time could be actually a good consistent player. But he needs to grown between the ears more then anything. There is nothing stopping Ves from being a totally legit NBA player except for him to make it happen.

But he has to go earn it. No one is going to just give it to him. This team is past that stage.

But in the last 3 draft, the Wizards landed Wall and Beal who are two complete studs. They swung for the fences with Ves and so far, it looks like they are standing at a 2 strike count. They/he get one more good swing at this to see if they can get on base and generate a run.

Having hit and scored on two draft with Wall and Beal and on the verge of striking out with Ves, the Wizards need to generate another hit and scored run in this draft. They can't swing for the fences again.

3 out of 4 draft that you score Wall/Beal level talent, and your front office is doing well.
2 out of 4, and they suck.

Go for the sure thing players with upside. The list is Burke, VO, McLemore and Zeller. Pick one and move one.

For me, I think its down to Burke vs VO and Burke makes more players better. VO could become a Wade. Burke a baby CP3. Those are your two best choices in my book. Zeller would be nice, but he kills any chance of Ves making it and he limits the room for Kevin S to make it. Adding him makes other players worth less. Adding Burke makes other players worth more.

Or maybe Len if you did enough homework to know more about him then I can tell from here.

I like Nate Wolters more than Trey Burke.

I think Wolters, Pierre Jackson, Ray McCallum, Peyton Siva, and Lorenzo Brown can each potentially upgrade the PG backup position potentially as well as Burke. Trey Burke produced great offense but I think his team being loaded helped. His defense will be poor. hands, Burke is a tremendous scoring PG and a big shot maker. He would also be a better playmaker for Jan Vesely.

My opinion is not a slam on Burke. IMO 99% rate Burke where you say-and he'd be a great pick. I think he expects stardom, starter's minutes, and he's in a LOADED point guard draft. I think Wolters is vastly underrated. I like him the most and the other guys around as much or better than Burke. All can add to what A.J. Price (a #52 pick himself) brings.

I won't mind seeing Price back and Wolters drafted.

[Nivek]

Could we dispense with this erroneous claim that Okafor "sucked" at the start of the season? Okafor was about average (PPA of 105 through the first five games of the season), and then he improved. At no point did he suck. At no point was he as mind-bendingly awful as Vesely, Seraphin and Singleton.