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JaVale McGee

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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#561 » by MJG » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:44 pm

BruceO wrote:if mcgee could stop fouling maybe he'd be out there longer. Not sure if anyone has told him the proper use of arms and body to defend the post when someone backs into him. NO wonder detroit just got him into the post on consecutive possessions.

On this: McGee's fouls are way, way up under Tap. Under EJ, McGee averaged 2.0 fouls per game in 20.0 minutes per game, or one foul every 10.0 minutes. Under Tap, those numbers are 2.9 fouls per game in 14.8 minutes per game, or one foul every 5.1 minutes Basically, he's doubled his rate of fouls. Maybe it's just a case of small sample size? Or could there be something else to it? Not sure; just found the numbers interesting.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#562 » by BruceO » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:05 am

that might not be a tapscott thing. I think he's better scouted now and he's starting. Which means teams directly attacking him more now in the post. Detroit went to work on him. It's not hard to see that not improving until he gains strength or uses his arms. That thing where his arms are straight up and not challenging and the player bumps into him is not working. I have to look at the exact rule but he's screwing himself by doing this. Last time he did that fratello commented on it and tapscotts expression was definately showing him construct a conclusion in his head. It could have been easily the look of here we go again, I thought i told him not to do that. Either way if there's the possibility of Mcgee being able to get us the tip at the opening buzzer, and we have the luxury of exploring how the other team will attack him or how we will utilize him before the score gets lopsided. Now combine this idea of they will attack him if he's out there for a long time and its best to use McGee for a limited period till the first or second time out or till he collects fouls, with the idea that it's much better to develop Blatche first. He's top in the pecking order and the priority among our young bigs. Plus he's able to handle the banging better. It's a good idea to get Blatche out there. it's a good idea to keep McGee out with foul trouble just incase Blatche gets into foul trouble. That way we have an available big who isn't etan.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#563 » by WizarDynasty » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:09 am

LyricalRico wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:We all knew that Hamiliton was piss poor man on man defender which was why jordan traded him to the pistons.


Umm...no. MJ traded Rip for Stackhouse because Stack was big enough to play the 3, allowing MJ one last hurrah at SG. If the Wizards wanted better defense, they would have traded for someone other than Jerry freaking Stackhouse.

JOrdan was not going to build the team around a poor man to man defender and Hamilton wanted a max contract....yet accepted half of that from Detroit.
Imagine us now with Hamilton having a max contract. We as wizards fans must not (now) get use to living with the longterm consequences of building a team around poor man to man defenders (poor agility/wingspan) and paying these players as if their offense more than compensates for the their lack of even average man to man defensive abilities. Grunfeld surely would have paid Hamilton a max contract. Abe would have paid hamilton a max contract. The cornerstone of your championship team should never be centered around a player who is a below average defender. If a player is a below average defender...not matter how offensively gifted he is, he is still a role player because he can't shut down his counterpart on the defensive side. A player who dominates on offensive and completely shuts down his counterpart on defense is a superstar/ allstar. Arenas is only an allstar when the guy he is guarding is a poor offensive player and able to hide arenas lack of defensive ability. A true allstar usually wins both the offensive and defensive matchup each night. Never shuts down the guy he is guarding defensively yet we paid arenas as though he was dominant player on both sides of the ball and we were forced to pay him this because Grunfeld made him the center piece of this organization. Had Grunfeld made another player who was both dominant on offensive and defensive side, this organization would have gone alot farther that one playoff win against a offensively challenged bulls roster.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#564 » by pancakes3 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:11 am

I don't remembering Rip demanding a max contract, and i doubt that anyone would've given him a max contract. In fact Rip now has been signed and extended by the pistons and still only makes 10 mil a year. The fact that we got stack back for rip was just another misjudgement of talent on MJ's part. If he wanted a solid defender in return for Hamilton, i'm sure mateen cleeves was still in the league in '01.

I love your enthusiasm for defense, but I don't remember Arenas being a below average defender. He wasn't a good one, for sure, but he wasn't struggling to keep from drowning in opponents' points. Usually he was the one doing the drowning. As far as defense compared to offense, Steve Nash has a way harder time keeping the opposing pg in check than Arenas does, and the man won 2 MVPs. Chris paul has gaudy steals numbers, but he isn't a "lockdown" defender by any means. Neither isAI, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Calderon, Baron Davis, should I go on? And for all his defensive liabilities, he kept Hinrich under wraps pretty well while scoring in bunches - and Hinrich is a "good" defensive pg.

I do agree with the need for a defensive presence at the PF spot, and will advocate trading an overpaid Jamison. However, I think it's epically rare to find a lock-down defender and a dead-eyed offensive talent in the same player.

http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PWAS5.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/0506WAS5.HTM

tell the story of the 05 and 06 playoffs. The SF/PF position kills us. Haslem in the Miami series, and Lebron in the Cleveland series, but that's not really news is it?
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#565 » by WizarDynasty » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:41 am

pancakes3 wrote:I don't remembering Rip demanding a max contract, and i doubt that anyone would've given him a max contract. In fact Rip now has been signed and extended by the pistons and still only makes 10 mil a year. The fact that we got stack back for rip was just another misjudgement of talent on MJ's part. If he wanted a solid defender in return for Hamilton, i'm sure mateen cleeves was still in the league in '01.

I love your enthusiasm for defense, but I don't remember Arenas being a below average defender. He wasn't a good one, for sure, but he wasn't struggling to keep from drowning in opponents' points. Usually he was the one doing the drowning. As far as defense compared to offense, Steve Nash has a way harder time keeping the opposing pg in check than Arenas does, and the man won 2 MVPs. Chris paul has gaudy steals numbers, but he isn't a "lockdown" defender by any means. Neither isAI, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Calderon, Baron Davis, should I go on? And for all his defensive liabilities, he kept Hinrich under wraps pretty well while scoring in bunches - and Hinrich is a "good" defensive pg.

I do agree with the need for a defensive presence at the PF spot, and will advocate trading an overpaid Jamison. However, I think it's epically rare to find a lock-down defender and a dead-eyed offensive talent in the same player.

http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PWAS5.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/0506WAS5.HTM

tell the story of the 05 and 06 playoffs. The SF/PF position kills us. Haslem in the Miami series, and Lebron in the Cleveland series, but that's not really news is it?

Well that's what a true allstar does. He is dominant in his position on both sides of the ball...otherwise arenas is an offensive specialist. An allstar gives you such a superior advantage at position that dramatically swings the game into your favor. If arenas was able to shutdown hinrich well below his average and at the same time produce above average on offense...then that significantly swings the game in your favor. If arenas scores his points...but also lets the guy he is guarding score his average...arens isn't really changing the dynamic of the other teams offense. I.E. if arenas scores 30 points a game and he goes against hinrich who normally scores 20 pts a game..if arenas scores 30 pts and game and hold hinrich to 10 pts a game...arenas forces the other team to find another player to score hinrichs 10pts that he normally gives the team. Arenas doesn't do that. He allows the player he is guarding to scores his average or even above average and not affect the offensive chemistry of the other team. I.E. lebron. when he guards caron, he reduces caron's scoring average while at the same time...improving his scoring average. that is a super star. We pay arenas to be a superstar but he doesn't produce on the court like a superstar.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#566 » by Wizardspride » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:11 am

WizarDynasty....using your logic a guy like Magic Johnson wasn't a legitimate all-star because he wasn't dominant on the defensive end.

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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#567 » by WizarDynasty » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:21 am

Wizardspride wrote:WizarDynasty....using your logic a guy like Magic Johnson wasn't a legitimate all-star because he wasn't dominant on the defensive end.


i kind of find it hard to believe that magic wasn't an above average defender based on whomever he guarded the majority of time, especially in his era of basketball. I am pretty sure on most nights, he held the guy he was guarding below his average for pts scored per game.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#568 » by Wizardspride » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:26 am

WizarDynasty wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:WizarDynasty....using your logic a guy like Magic Johnson wasn't a legitimate all-star because he wasn't dominant on the defensive end.


i kind of find it hard to believe that magic wasn't an above average defender based on whomever he guarded the majority of time, especially in his era of basketball. I am pretty sure on most nights, he held the guy he was guarding below his average for pts scored per game.

I don't know the numbers but I've seen Magic himself talk about not being a good one-on-one defender.

Magic stated that his Laker teams were so good that they masked his weaknesses.

Too bad the Wizards aren't on that level.

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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#569 » by yungal07 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:32 am

WizarDynasty wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:WizarDynasty....using your logic a guy like Magic Johnson wasn't a legitimate all-star because he wasn't dominant on the defensive end.


i kind of find it hard to believe that magic wasn't an above average defender based on whomever he guarded the majority of time, especially in his era of basketball. I am pretty sure on most nights, he held the guy he was guarding below his average for pts scored per game.


hey gizzarddynasty,

why is it that Magic Johnson, who was a good 8-9 inches taller than John Stockton, never made the all-defensive team, while John Stockton made the all 2nd team defense 5 times in his career in the same era?

i'll answer for you...you don't have one. now please STFU.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#570 » by WizarDynasty » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:42 am

yungal07 wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:WizarDynasty....using your logic a guy like Magic Johnson wasn't a legitimate all-star because he wasn't dominant on the defensive end.


i kind of find it hard to believe that magic wasn't an above average defender based on whomever he guarded the majority of time, especially in his era of basketball. I am pretty sure on most nights, he held the guy he was guarding below his average for pts scored per game.


hey gizzarddynasty,

why is it that Magic Johnson, who was a good 8-9 inches taller than John Stockton, never made the all-defensive team, while John Stockton made the all 2nd team defense 5 times in his career in the same era?

i'll answer for you...you don't have one. now please STFU.


whatever dude, john stockton is not a lock down defender. If you think john stockton would be able to lockdown a dwayne wade without hand checking..or guard gilbert arenas with todays rules....you must have lost all your marbles. John stockton could pick a players pocket. I never said he wasn't good at steals, but steals doesn't decrease the guy you are guarding points scored per game. Would John Stockton be an above average man to man defender in todays game? think before you shout out STFU. you just make yourself look bad. John Stockton obviously wasn't good enough to bring his team home any championship so lets not bloat john stockton like he was the michael jordan of point guards. He is no different than Nash...great getting his team mates involved, could knock down shots and highly intelligent. He was way better than Nash at getting steals. But stockton was no great man to man defender..or even above average man to man defender. I am pretty sure there were way better man to man defenders at point guard when he was elected 2nd team all defense. And getting elected 2nd team all defensive is heavily based on popularity contest anyway. When john stockton wins a head to head defensive matchup meaning that he consistently decreases the opposing point guards pts scored per game average..or decreaes that pgs shooting average..that is when i will concede to you that john stockton was an above man to man defender. And buddy I don't remember of any such occurences. Show the scorers that john stockton locked down below their scoring average and that will tell you if he was a great defender and if you know what the hell you are talking about.
Stockton was great at getting steals in his era, but he was not a shutdown defender or barely even average. He was one of the greatest pick and roll point guards in the history of the game and he was also tough on offense, often time sacrificing his body to free his bigmen. But when crunch time came, during the clunch moments of the playoffs no one was thinking in the back of their mind that john stockton could shut his man down defensively. Tim Duncan...KG...Ewing...Kidd...pippen..jordan...kobe...rasheed wallace...there are tons of players taht come up that have the potential to be dominant on both sides of floor in their one on one defensive matchups. Nash and Stockton don't belong in this category. Arenas have failed to demonstrate this ability as well. They are all great offensive players mediocre man to man defenders.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#571 » by yungal07 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:10 am

dude, do you actually read what other people write or do you just skim through it? when did i say stockton could guard dwayne wadeor gilbert arenas?

you're problem is not that you're writing, its that you don't listen. you have an advanced form of ADHD or something (and its obvious by your writing style).

see, you're a copout artist who doesn't use facts to prove a point...you just poopoo and discregard facts when they don't fit your flawed thinking.

"But stockton was no great man to man defender..or even above average man to man defender. I am pretty sure there were way better man to man defenders at point guard when he was elected 2nd team all defense. And getting elected 2nd team all defensive is heavily based on popularity contest anyway. When john stockton wins a head to head defensive matchup meaning that he consistently decreases the opposing point guards pts scored per game average"


do you honestly expect me to take this kind of response seriously? dude, you are idiot. i'm trying hard not to put you on ignore, but everytime you respond with non-sense like this, it makes it even harder.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#572 » by fishercob » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:08 pm

So I have a theory about McGee. It's in line with doc's Oliver Stone-ish "make it look like an accident" honorable tanking theory. Anyhoo, here goes.

I think Ernie **loves** Javale Mcgee. I think he had a hunch on him on draft night and has seen enough at the NBA level to believe that this kid is going to be a star. I also think he's going shopping for a big trade this offseason, and that he wants to find a way to hold on to McGee. I think he's hiding him on the bench, so that other GM's don't wise up to his potential and that Ernie is going to try to make Blacthe and Young the centerpieces of said trade (along with the filler contracts).

That tanking theory doesnt look so crazy now, does it? Maybe in a year this wont either.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#573 » by WizarDynasty » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:45 pm

sorry blatche is the real deal. He has kevin garnett slash lamar odom written all over him. Grunfeld would be a fool to give up a player who is an above average man to man seven footer who is also has an above average offensive ability.
Nick young ..jury is still out but we know he has to the tools to beast on both sides. Definitely aren't included in trades unless you are wes unseld.
Jamison, etan, and mcquire all can get the boot. Mcquire isn't long enough to challenge small forwards..he only has a 6'10 wingspan ...which is pathetic if you are 6'8. He's ok with s/g blocking he has the tool for but we already got nick young. We need defender with 7'1 wingspan (this is the wingspan needed to challenge nba starting small forwards out on the perimeter with strenght to guard pierce and lebron. I like mike, obviously if you get someone stronger and quicker..great but he is fine for a back up.
Javale has a weak base that has poor lateral acceleration ability and it will get worse as he adds more weight unless the wizards have a plan.
when Javale has a wide base..meaning his leg are spread out...he can't absorb force and still maintain his balance. He also does not move very well left or right with his leg spread which shows more agilty needed to guard starting powerforwards and centers who with dribble mobility.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#574 » by nate33 » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:57 pm

Nah. McGee isn't playing because the scouting report has come out on him. To stop him offensively, all you have to do is stay on his right hand and body up to him a bit; oh, and make sure you hustle back on D. To stop him defensively, you just have to be physical with him and take it straight at him.

Don't get me wrong, I think McGee is a keeper. But he has huge holes in his game right now that need to be addressed. He must get stronger and learn how to hold position.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#575 » by omegatronic3 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:09 am

Nah. McGee isn't playing because the scouting report has come out on him.


yup you're right....when nobody knew what he could do people left him alone...now people body him up ....as soon as he learns a few nuances though you gotta think he can be pretty effective on D
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#576 » by pancakes3 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:20 am

I don't think McGee will ever be a good man-to-man defender no matter how many nuances he lears but he could wreck havoc on the weak side if he's paired with someone with more heft like Blatche or Haywood. McGee's rail thin and any competent big man can easily seal him off with a drop step or a spin move. However, if you stick him on a PF, especially a perimeter oriented PF like Dirk, Turk, or Yi, his length will be very effective defensively. This goes back to the earlier discussions about making McGee a PF, which i still think is a good idea especially since Blatche is proving to be an adequate Center.

also, wiz D, how exactly does a wide base translate to a weak base or a wide base translate to poor lateral acceleration, or how lateral acceleration even applies to post defense?
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#577 » by NiteOwl » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:45 am

Wiz D fails to take into account the potential to improve your poor lateral accelaration. Plyometrics brother!! Also, guarantee McGee is stronger and faster if he went through the rookie tests next year as well as the following year. Bigs mature later to much later. He could end up being Tyson Chandler big - unlikely but it could happen. He looks like he will be more Camby-sized which has worked fine for him. He will never be broad-assed like Shaq, but that is a 1-in a 100 million body type/athletic ability combo (and I bet I understated those odds). If McGee is a hard worker, his body will be the least of his worries.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#578 » by WizarDynasty » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:46 am

pancakes3 wrote:I don't think McGee will ever be a good man-to-man defender no matter how many nuances he lears but he could wreck havoc on the weak side if he's paired with someone with more heft like Blatche or Haywood. McGee's rail thin and any competent big man can easily seal him off with a drop step or a spin move. However, if you stick him on a PF, especially a perimeter oriented PF like Dirk, Turk, or Yi, his length will be very effective defensively. This goes back to the earlier discussions about making McGee a PF, which i still think is a good idea especially since Blatche is proving to be an adequate Center.

also, wiz D, how exactly does a wide base translate to a weak base or a wide base translate to poor lateral acceleration, or how lateral acceleration even applies to post defense?

if you watched songalia d up rasheed wallace out on the perimeter, you would see an example of wide base. The further you feet are spread, the the more space you defend to your right and to your left. Teh trick is, when your feet are spread wide, the only way to explode left or right is if you squat. If your feet are spread wide and your center of gravity isn't low, you can't get enough strength from your legs to slide with power. The lower your center of gravity, the easier it is for you to keep balance. McGee is constantly loosing his balance when he tries to keep up.

You have to be able to respond in both to your left and your right in order to cut a defender off. When you are in a low base stance, you only have one leg to give you enough force to slide because the other legs is not touching the ground. When you are sliding, you chest is always facing offensive player otherwise teh ref will call a blocking foul. You have to tremendous power in both legs while at the same time squating. The power is almost the same aswhat an ice skater uses when they are thrusting except you can never be standing straight up, you have to always keep the lowest possible center of gravity. The problem it looks like with Mcgee is that he has bad knees and can't really get into a low squat position like darius or even Blatche.....same problem GIL has. You look at their leg structure and they never practice squating and moving sideways their whole lives so their knees arent use to strain. All of sudden, in mid life they are asked to squat low center gravity and thrust side ways and their knees get torn up. When you are in squating position with a wide base, your ankles aren't til the normal position as when youare standing completely straight...I don't know its hard to explain. I can just see that Mcgee can't get low the ground and still slide his feet. . He has a high center of gravity and his knees seem really bad...just like gilberts when he is trying to get to low the ground
The real issue with Gilbert is that his knees are experience tremendous forces when he squats really low the ground like a running back. You see this with DWade. He has tremendous agilty because he keep a low center of gravity and still accelerate. Its like a sport car...the lower a car is the ground..the tighter turns in can make at high speed without flipping over. The problem is that if your knees arent use to being at a really low center of gravity, they get damaged. that is what happening to alot of poor perimeter defenders who are working to be average defender. they are told what they need to do and when they try to get a lower center of gravity, their knees give out because they haven't at all most of their life. Its like trying to make your knuckles punch through concrete. Over time, the bones get really strong based on the pressure they experience...but if you try punch through concrete with out years of training, your kunckles are going to break. Bones get denser based on the forces that they experience. grunfeld doesn't understand this concept when it comes to defense, low center of gravity, and the time it takes for a person's body to be able to absorb teh forces when they never cared about doing it before.--Mcgee has never cared to get low to ground and practice is lateral acceleration until the nba while his memesis..Dwight, Dwade, and K.G. Howeard and Dwade...have. Whenever you see a player bang against the court with hands..and get into a wide stance...that's when you know they are about to play lockdown D. Its amazing to see Kevin Garnett do get that low and he is seven feet tall. Only true ballers know the importance of low center of gravity and lateral acceleration. Its sprint sliding...same muscles you use in ice skating. If you ever ice skate before, you know that you have to get low if you want power.

.AT teh same time to thrust your body quick enough left or right to cut off a driving lane. The closer your feet are together, the less the more space your give some to drive past you. A post player has to get around your feet in order to get past you. the closer they are together, the easier. And if you don't have explosiveness to move your body (ice skating people) to beat a post player to the spot..you will probably be called for the foul. Mcgee is constantly getting beat to spot and has to foul to prevent the easy lay up because he doesn't have one the strenght to knock a driver off balance with a slight nudge and two he doesn't have the leg strenght to beat a player to a spot moving sideways.
MOst of the time you develop these skills in you play football. In footballl, linemen normally have to get into a low squaiting position. Cornerbacks otten times have to run backpedal left and right while still facing tothe quarterback and when you tackle in football, you have to bend your knees and to get your power.
McGee and Gilbert have straight forward speed, they don't have ice skater speed, roller blade thrust speed. The problem is once you get to full speed with your rollerblades, you have to be able to stop just as quickly and this is where the knee damage comes into play if haven't built up your bone density...just as trying amateurs trying to punch through concrete. Gil and Mcgee are amateur because they haven't practices their entires lives getting low and now they pay for it when they have to go against the best of the best.
When you look at javale's quadricep...they are super undeveloped. You would normally expect to see tremendous oversize quadricep muscles for a player his size since he has to accelerate nearly 260 lbs on weight on leg and the only mucles to accelerate his entire body sideways would one quadricep muscle. My advice to him would be to first start practicing sprinting and backpedaling because their is no way you can backpedal fast without having a low center of gravity. Once hand secondly he should spend at least two hour sliding sideways across the gym on the out of bounds lines keeping a low center of gravity. if you did that everyday..he might have a chance but I think the clock is ticking against him. He is only 20 and still growing but not for long.
Lets hope he kept that football coach that help him in the predraft process..hopefully he hired him full time or hte wizards management hired him part time or something for their investment.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#579 » by nate33 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:23 pm

NiteOwl wrote:Wiz D fails to take into account the potential to improve your poor lateral accelaration. Plyometrics brother!! Also, guarantee McGee is stronger and faster if he went through the rookie tests next year as well as the following year. Bigs mature later to much later. He could end up being Tyson Chandler big - unlikely but it could happen. He looks like he will be more Camby-sized which has worked fine for him. He will never be broad-assed like Shaq, but that is a 1-in a 100 million body type/athletic ability combo (and I bet I understated those odds). If McGee is a hard worker, his body will be the least of his worries.

I don't think that's unlikely at all. I think it's very likely that he'll fill out to be roughly the size of Chandler. He has a solid frame and broad shoulders. He just needs more time to mature physically. Heck, he has allegedly grown another inch since the draft measurements. You can't expect a 21-year old to fill out much if he's still growing taller.

McGee is a project. It was nice that he showed some ability to impact a game right from the start, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a long way to go to reach his potential. I'm not at all worried about it though. He's gonna get better every year. It might take him until he's 25 or so, but that's not unusual for bigs.
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Re: JaVale McGee 

Post#580 » by closg00 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:50 pm

nate33 wrote:Nah. McGee isn't playing because the scouting report has come out on him. To stop him offensively, all you have to do is stay on his right hand and body up to him a bit; oh, and make sure you hustle back on D. To stop him defensively, you just have to be physical with him and take it straight at him.

Don't get me wrong, I think McGee is a keeper. But he has huge holes in his game right now that need to be addressed. He must get stronger and learn how to hold position.


No-argument about the offensive side of his game, but we should be giving him much more playing-time because of what he offers on the defensive side. I really believe we could have won several of these close games had we played him a bit more. His mere presence often times results in altered or blocked shots. Pair him with Blatche for stretches and I think we would see our opponents point totals going down. Still waiting for Tap to try it.

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