Official Trade Thread XIV: 6/14/10 - 12/22/10

[WizStorm]

Personally, I want to give Wall every possible chance to succeed in this league and not just dump him in a situation where he feels he's a one man show and sinks deep into the abyss of being part of a losing franchise. I think Gilbert is the perfect compliment for Wall in terms of on-court ability as well as being able to actually take the pressure off Wall to feel like he has to everything himself. I think it's an absolute win/win with Gil and Wall in terms of each other actually needing each other to take the limelight off the other.

I can understand the argument that it would take some pressure off of Wall to have another legit scorer sharing the backcourt with him. But have you considered that Vince Carter could serve that function nearly as well as Arenas? Carter is no longer as good offensively as Arenas, but he's still above-average. And Carter is surely better than Arenas defensively. And we still have Hinrich to come in and settle Wall down if he gets flustered. It's not like Wall is working without a net.

My comment to that is in the other thread where you stated the same thing.

Basically what it boils down to, about every argument I make for Gil to stay on the team is because he's not someone like Vince Carter. Aging veteran with vastly declining abilities, horrible attitude (for young squad), horrible work ethic, questionable teammate, etc...

[Ruzious]

Personally, I want to give Wall every possible chance to succeed in this league and not just dump him in a situation where he feels he's a one man show and sinks deep into the abyss of being part of a losing franchise. I think Gilbert is the perfect compliment for Wall in terms of on-court ability as well as being able to actually take the pressure off Wall to feel like he has to everything himself. I think it's an absolute win/win with Gil and Wall in terms of each other actually needing each other to take the limelight off the other.

I can understand the argument that it would take some pressure off of Wall to have another legit scorer sharing the backcourt with him. But have you considered that Vince Carter could serve that function nearly as well as Arenas? Carter is no longer as good offensively as Arenas, but he's still above-average. And Carter is surely better than Arenas defensively. And we still have Hinrich to come in and settle Wall down if he gets flustered. It's not like Wall is working without a net.

My comment to that is in the other thread where you stated the same thing.

Basically what it boils down to, about every argument I make for Gil to stay on the team is because he's not someone like Vince Carter. Aging veteran with vastly declining abilities, horrible attitude (for young squad), horrible work ethic, questionable teammate, etc...

I think if you poll 100 NBA fans comparing Gil to VC, at least 95 of them would say that Gil is the one of the 2 that they wouldn't want around young teammates, Gil has the worse tude, and Gil is the more questionable teammate. Even during the Celtics series when he couldn't make a shot and got benched at times, he was the biggest cheerleader on the bench, and he was the primary guy for Orlando doing all the press conferences after each game - win or lose. I wasn't impressed with him as a player, but it was hard not to be impressed with him as a person.

[WizStorm]

I think if you poll 100 NBA fans comparing Gil to VC, at least 95 of them would say that Gil is the one of the 2 that they wouldn't want around young teammates, Gil has the worse tude, and Gil is the more questionable teammate. Even during the Celtics series when he couldn't make a shot and got benched at times, he was the biggest cheerleader on the bench, and he was the primary guy for Orlando doing all the press conferences after each game - win or lose. I wasn't impressed with him as a player, but it was hard not to be impressed with him as a person.

I'm sorry, but regurgitating the popular opinion is not going to sway be one bit. I'd challenge you to go to any other boards and find anyone with objective analysis concerning Gilbert after all the overly negative press this past season. About everything I've seen regarding Gil is just like that Orlando board nonsense about Gil being a team cancer and a complete selfish ball hog. If anything, this is reason A #1 to keep Gil to show him having success and to have a media darling like John Wall speak glowingly about him being a great teammate. I don't think that any equitable deal can be consummated now with any team as every fan base will be roaring in disapproval because of the ridiculous negative image that "95%" of casual fans currently have.

I can respect your personal opinions regarding Vince as a grade A cheerleader. Maybe we can find a opening for him on the dance team?

[AceDegenerate]

I think if you poll 100 NBA fans comparing Gil to VC, at least 95 of them would say that Gil is the one of the 2 that they wouldn't want around young teammates, Gil has the worse tude, and Gil is the more questionable teammate. Even during the Celtics series when he couldn't make a shot and got benched at times, he was the biggest cheerleader on the bench, and he was the primary guy for Orlando doing all the press conferences after each game - win or lose. I wasn't impressed with him as a player, but it was hard not to be impressed with him as a person.

Okay and let's poll 100 Canadians on what they think about Vince Carter?

What kind of BS is this going to prove? Obviously polling a biased audience gives a biased result.

Why not poll 100 Legit Wiz Fans (who watched Arenas play since he got here) on what they think? I'm sure you'll find a vastly different result.

[Ruzious]

I think if you poll 100 NBA fans comparing Gil to VC, at least 95 of them would say that Gil is the one of the 2 that they wouldn't want around young teammates, Gil has the worse tude, and Gil is the more questionable teammate. Even during the Celtics series when he couldn't make a shot and got benched at times, he was the biggest cheerleader on the bench, and he was the primary guy for Orlando doing all the press conferences after each game - win or lose. I wasn't impressed with him as a player, but it was hard not to be impressed with him as a person.

I'm sorry, but regurgitating the popular opinion is not going to sway be one bit. I'd challenge you to go to any other boards and find anyone with objective analysis concerning Gilbert after all the overly negative press this past season. About everything I've seen regarding Gil is just like that Orlando board nonsense about Gil being a team cancer and a complete selfish ball hog. If anything, this is reason A #1 to keep Gil to show him having success and to have a media darling like John Wall speak glowingly about him being a great teammate. I don't think that any equitable deal can be consummated now with any team as every fan base will be roaring in disapproval because of the ridiculous negative image that "95%" of casual fans currently have.

I can respect your personal opinions regarding Vince as a grade A cheerleader. Maybe we can find a opening for him on the dance team?

Ok Wizstorm, are you telling me that you and Krizko... are the objective ones when it comes to Arenas? Really? Really? That's a lot funnier than your dance team line - which was funny.

[AceDegenerate]

Maybe I am not objective, but I never claim to be.

Don't lump anyone else in there with me though.

[LyricalRico]

Discussing potential problems with Vince in DC is a moot point IMO. I don't expect Vince to see any minutes in a Wiz uni if this trade actually happens. He'd either be flipped to a contender for expirings/picks or bought out for savings (both this year and next).

[sfam]

It's a tough call. My only thought is how much more do you think you can realistically get from waiting. I think the teams that would be willing to trade for him at the trade deadline would be the teams competing for a championship, and can only offer late picks.

I don't even think it's about improving Gil's value for the folks who want to keep him. It's about seeing him him put up 25ppg on a lottery team. That's all they seem to care about.

Yeah, that's it. I've taken out bets with bookies on Gil's point total for the season. Seriously, what a ridiculous thing to say. Isn't it at least possible that people who think Gil should stay believe that it takes two high quality players to make a run for the title, and that the chances of finding another one if we ditch Gil are low? Wouldn't that be a higher percentage rationale over the "those idiots just want Gil to score points and ruin our long term chances" argument?

[Benjammin]

I posted this in the Gil/Vince thread as well:


Benjammin wrote:
But it makes for good conversation, with compelling arguments on both sides.

Hoopalotta wrote:
That's true, but for the sake of J-Wiz's stomach pit, I figured I'd needle the soap bubble.

I think the majority of the advocates and detractors of a Gil trade are at a disconnect based on arguing from entirely different views in their evaluations of what sort of thing constitutes a tangible advantage.



That's probably true that there is a disconnect. I know for me that the emotional attachment to Gil makes evaluating the decision more difficult. For example, knowing everything we know right now about Gil and his recent years, should the Wizards sign Gil to a 4 year 80 million dollar contract, because that's what is left on his deal. Now we can argue that taking on a year of Vince Carter at 17.3 million plus a four million dollar buyout also needs to be put into the equation. Finally, some might argue if not Gil at this money, then who?

So fellow Wizards fans, would you sign Gil to a four year 80 million dollar contract if he were a free agent and everything else was identical?

[dangermouse]

Even the biggest Gil homer here wouldnt answer yes to that question.

The problem is he is aleady signed and there is nothing we can do about it. We can trade him for a contract like Carter's, who seems to be the only good deal we would get right now. We pay $4mil in a buyout so he can join a contender.

Or, we play him until the trade deadline, and he either;

(A) plays well for us, not quite woking out with Wall, but not a total disaster. we get good offers from teams. Maybe Orlando throws in a first or two/a prospect.

(B) he plays or shows flashes of being Agent Zero again. Wall/Arenas are destroying other team's back courts. Teams clamour for him, offering up really good deals, multiple picks, prospects.

(C) he plays like an absolute dog. no sign of Arenas of old. his stats are way down and hes bringing the team down with him. hes not meshing with Wall at all.

In outcome B (and even A if he shows signs of getting better every game) we have to think to ourselves; should we actually trade him? is what we are getting back in the deal worth what we are giving up? but does keeping him fit with the team plan, or not at all?

If outcome C eventuates, hes untradeable. We are stuck with a broken player on a huge deal. Maybe a team takes a flier and gives us a big expiring, doubtful. We would have to take back another bad contact in oder to move him.

I think we should let it ride until the deadline and see what we have. More than likely we get something like a mix of outcome A&B, and his value increases so we arent just trading him for a team's washing machine.

[Dat2U]

Even if we trade Gil for Vince, I'm not so certain that Vince would ever wear a Wizards uniform. I'm not going to put one ahead of the other as far as who's the better teammate because they both have questionable reps around the league. Gil's issues only stand out more right now b/c of the media fiasco surrounding it (thanks Peter Vescey!). I think it would be a very hard pill to swallow for VC to be dumped by his contending hometown team and sent to the Wizards. I don't think anyone can say for certain how he would handle it. Yeah, I guess it could motivate him to put his best foot forward in a contract year, but he also might demand a trade, pout or mail it like he did for many nights on a struggling NJ team in 08-09.

Basketball wise, there's no contest. Gil is the far superior player and still a legit 1st option is this league. At best VC is a 3rd, maybe 4th option at this stage of his career.

[Dat2U]

You know in theory it makes a ton of sense.

We've already got one super power in our own division. Why not help create a 2nd one? Yeah, lets give Orlando our best player for their washed up vet so we can see Miami & Orlando battle it out for the next few years and we can continue to be the bridesmade we've all grown accustomed to being.

More importantly dumping Gil frees up a starting spot for Nick Young. And isn't that truly what we have all been waiting for?

[Dat2U]

I posted this in the Gil/Vince thread as well:


Benjammin wrote:
But it makes for good conversation, with compelling arguments on both sides.

Hoopalotta wrote:
That's true, but for the sake of J-Wiz's stomach pit, I figured I'd needle the soap bubble.

I think the majority of the advocates and detractors of a Gil trade are at a disconnect based on arguing from entirely different views in their evaluations of what sort of thing constitutes a tangible advantage.



That's probably true that there is a disconnect. I know for me that the emotional attachment to Gil makes evaluating the decision more difficult. For example, knowing everything we know right now about Gil and his recent years, should the Wizards sign Gil to a 4 year 80 million dollar contract, because that's what is left on his deal. Now we can argue that taking on a year of Vince Carter at 17.3 million plus a four million dollar buyout also needs to be put into the equation. Finally, some might argue if not Gil at this money, then who?

So fellow Wizards fans, would you sign Gil to a four year 80 million dollar contract if he were a free agent and everything else was identical?

What's done is done. We can't go back and undo that signing.

The real question that should be asked is what player do you want to sign at $80 million or less to replace Gil? Marc Gasol? Kendrick Perkins (whose got his own health issues)? Outside of Carmelo who else is even on the horizon?

[nate33]

What's done is done. We can't go back and undo that signing.

That's my point. We CAN undo that signing. That's what this trade does.

[Dat2U]

Everyone wants to trade a legit 1st option but does anyone have any real concrete ideas on how to replace him? We all know about the Melo dream scenario but if starting Nick Young & overpaying Marc Gasol next off-season is the best idea folks can come with, well I'd say I'd rather just keep Gil.

No one other than Krizko is saying let's keep him for all 4 yrs. I think most of us are saying let's give this thing a shot. See where we are in 6 months and go from there. To me, the risk of injury is a legitimate concern and I can understand not wanting to take that risk but the concerns about not being a good fit with Wall or being a huge lockerroom problem seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

[nate33]

In 2011:
We could acquire Melo.
We could acquire Marc Gasol, Kendrick Perkins, or Al Horford.
We could make 2 BOYD deals for picks and 2012 contracts.

In 2012:
We could acquire Dwight Howard
We could take incentive to help position someone else to acquire Chris Paul
We could scoop up any of the overpaid players who were dumped with the new Allan Houston rule.
We could make 2 more BOYD deals for picks and 2013 contracts.

[verbal8]

Everyone wants to trade a legit 1st option but does anyone have any real concrete ideas on how to replace him? We all know about the Melo dream scenario but if starting Nick Young & overpaying Marc Gasol next off-season is the best idea folks can come with, well I'd say I'd rather just keep Gil.

No one other than Krizko is saying let's keep him for all 4 yrs. I think most of us are saying let's give this thing a shot. See where we are in 6 months and go from there. To me, the risk of injury is a legitimate concern and I can understand not wanting to take that risk but the concerns about not being a good fit with Wall or being a huge lockerroom problem seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

We have only seen Wall in Summer League, but from the looks of things he is ready to contribute right now. Unless there is a strong incentive to deal Arenas, I don't see the Wizards in a situation that they have to move Arenas.

If Wall was a situation like Favors where he seems to need some time to develop, I would say the Wizards should ship Arenas out, even if Eddy Curry was all that was coming back. I think having a scorer like Arenas will help Wall focus on being a point guard, rather than getting into a situation of having to do it all himself. Also not having to focus on scoring means Wall can focus energy on being disruptive on the defensive end.

Short of injury I see potential trading partners becoming more desperate rather than the Wizards.

[rockymac52]

In 2011:
We could acquire Melo.
We could acquire Marc Gasol, Kendrick Perkins, or Al Horford.
We could make 2 BOYD deals for picks and 2012 contracts.

In 2012:
We could acquire Dwight Howard
We could take incentive to help position someone else to acquire Chris Paul
We could scoop up any of the overpaid players who were dumped with the new Allan Houston rule.
We could make 2 more BOYD deals for picks and 2013 contracts.

1. Acquiring Melo via trade or free agency would be great. I don't think anyone is against that. Although probably not that likely, given how much competition we'll have.

2. All three are valuable players, Gasol and Horford more than Perkins, but I think all three will cost much more than what they're worth. Perkins is an awesome role player, but he's going to get paid $8-9 million a la Brendan Haywood IMO. Gasol and Horford will both cost $10-12 million IMO. I'd rather have one of those two for that price than 3 more years of Arenas at about $20 million. However, again, lots of teams will still have cap space and will be going all out for the best free agents available, just like this year, so these guys could very easily become overpaid (although if you think about it, unless a player sacrifices money to go to a particular team, he's going to be on the team that was willing to pay more money for him than the rest of the league in theory).

3. This is fine by me, because it allows us to think about going after top notch talent in free agency once again in 2012, and we can pick up some young legs and prospects in the process. But I'm not sure if that's worth giving up Arenas for.

4. Somehow, I doubt our ability to land Howard haha. I thin he's either staying in Orlando, or looking to go to an already top notch team that he can push over the top by creating his own "Miami Thrice". Only way he comes here is if Wall has established himself as an ELITE talent, and if another Wizard has significantly stepped their game up and we're already contenders. I just don't see that happening in the next 2 years.

5. I guess this is similar to the Hinrich/#17 trade, which I supported. But I'm still not thrilled with giving away Arenas for a shot at a deal like this.

6. I can't see this being much of an advantage.

7. BOYD's always good in my book, but again, worth giving up Arenas?


Also, with the using cap space to go after big name free agents, or younger, 2nd tier free agents (Gasol, Horford, etc.), I'm still not convinced Leonsis has any desire to do this. I know what you're thinking... if the Wizards already have grown their own talent and are improving and just need another top notch player on a reasonable contract to become contenders, then why not go about it through free agency? Well, that's not what Ted is preaching. I think some people are listening to what he's saying, but assuming that he's only talking about being patient this year or maybe the next two years, but then eventually entering the free agency bonanza. I think Ted's smarter than that. He has a vision of us developing our own talent, having a young, fast, and physical team, and avoiding overpaying for guys on the open market. Like I said earlier, free agency is all about spending more than every other team in the league. If Leonsis wanted to go after a free agent, he would have at least thrown in our name to a few of the guys this offseason. Like many here said, there's no harm in at least reaching out to LeBron to see if there's a shot. Maybe we did, maybe we didn't, but it really seems like we didn't even look into bringing in any of the potential max free agents from this offseason. If we didn't do it now, we're not going to do it in 2 years IMO.

[nate33]

4. Somehow, I doubt our ability to land Howard haha. I thin he's either staying in Orlando, or looking to go to an already top notch team that he can push over the top by creating his own "Miami Thrice". Only way he comes here is if Wall has established himself as an ELITE talent, and if another Wizard has significantly stepped their game up and we're already contenders. I just don't see that happening in the next 2 years.

I think there's a real chance of this scenario taking place. I think a team with Wall, Hinrich, Young, Blatche and McGee plus two more years of seasoning, a first round pick next year, and another BOYD first rounder will be a 45 win team in 2011/12. If Orlando proved to be woefully ineffective at beating Miami in the next years, Howard might start looking around for other teams with championship potential.

Basically, we could be the Chicago Bulls of this summer. A real good, young team with lots of cap room, in a major market, but in need of one more star to get to the next level. If not for the Miami coup, Chicago would have ended up with Lebron or Bosh and put themselves in the mix for perennial contention.

[rockymac52]

It's possible, I just don't see it happening. As a Wizards fan I can justify just about anything when it comes to promoting our team's upside, but I feel like Howard would feel differently.

Hell, before the Boozer signing and the possibility of this whole Miami Thrice thing, I honestly believed that it made sense for LeBron to go to DC. Wall >= Rose, Blatche > Noah, Arenas >>> whoever the Bulls' best SG is.

Just sayin'.