McGee #17 wrong Pick look at D.Jordan#35?

[WizarDynasty]

see here is the deal. Seraphin i believe will eventually force double teams when he post up on the block opening up wide open jumpshots for blatche. Blatche is a p/f and p/f traditionally are better on the perimeter than centers. Seraphin wants the ball in the post, McGee does not.

you start two bigmen with neither having perimeter skills. Dribbling and shooting out on the perimeter. Javale and Seraphin don't have perimeter skills.

Here is the problem, we like javale for his offensive ability but Javale can not a force a double on the block. No one respects javale as they shouldn't. he is the wink link on our offense because he can't do what a traditional center is expected to do. Go one on one in the post. Seraphin with time i believe will be able to force double teams and completely open up blatche for wide open jumpers.

Not the case for McGee..which is why D. jordan was probably the right pick if we needed a starting center. javal is decent speciality player coming off the bench but he can't provide you the essential that you need from a starting center. A center is suppose to be better in the post than a p/f. I see seraphin being a better on the block than javal because he is tough and like contact. McGee doesn't like contact--he isn't tough. a center is suppose to be Tougher than a p/f.

Javale will never be a starting p/f in this league--so if he isn't tough enough at center that means he is bench player.

[nate33]

CCJ, how many teams in the league start two big men who have no outside shot, no ball handling skills, no passing skills and are turnover machines whenever asked to make a decision?

The strength and length combo might work defensively (for a while until Seraphin fouls out), but it would be an abject disaster on offense. You need four effective offensive players on the floor if you want to score in this league.

Frankly, defense isn't our problem. With Arenas gone and Blatche playing a little better defensively, our team has been, dare I say, excellent on defense. In eight of our last ten games, we have held our opposition to a worse-than-average offensive efficiency. Our DRtg over the past 10 games is 98.5, which would rank 5th in the league. Take away the awful peformance last game in Philly and our DRtg would be 96.2 and we would lead the league!

Our problem is that we can't score.

Golden State swept the Wizards for a title with Clifford Ray and George Johnson. Philly won game one against perhaps the best modern-era Laker team starting Tyrone Hill and Dikembe Mutombo (or was it Theo Ratliff?). George Lynch had no offensive game to speak of. Serge Ibaka and Nick Collison finish games for OKC.

You say defense isn't the problem and I ask who does Blatche stop from penetrating and attacking the rim, especially in the fourth when Flip has him at C? How are Javale and McGee defensively?

With Seraphin how much sample space do you have to say how awful he would be offensively or with turnovers?

Is it possible McGee with Seraphin would create offense from their defense? Does Seraphin stop some bigs from entering the paint? Can't defense create offense?

C'mon CCJ. You can't be serious. You can't honestly believe that by swapping Seraphin for Blatche, our defense would be so much improved that we would generate enough fast break opportunities that it would actually be better offensively than having Blatche at PF - or Lewis, or even Yi.

Those successful teams that you mentioned took place in a different era. And even the Iverson Sixers had Matt Geiger at PF - a guy who could hit a 15 footer. Gieger is light years ahead of Seraphin on offense.

[Ed Wood]

Ugh, CCJ, the successful teams you're citing are from perhaps the two eras in the last forty years that were most conductive to a team being able to succeed without a whole lot of talent; the eastern conference in the early part of this decade and the NBA in general in the mid-to-late Seventies. Those are also two of the few teams that were able to be really really successful despite being incredibly reliant offensively on a single player, and the Wizards definitely do not have an Allen Iverson or Rick Barry on the roster.

Despite relying on the biggest jerk ever that Warriors team had a top five offensive and defensive rating. They also ran into a total of like two maybe two and a half really good big guys in the entire playoffs, Unseld, Spencer Haywood and Bob Love (eh), none of whom were really great, especially not offensively. The Bulls also had Chet Walker but I think he was more of a small forward. If anything, the Warriors were the only really good offensive team in the playoffs and beat a bunch of defense first teams of which only those Bullets were at top ten offensive team, suggesting that balance is important.

That Sixers team beat a Bucks team that was basically a worse version of the Nash Suns, with the immortal Irving "the other one" Johnson at center, and two forgettable teams (the Raptors, on which a young Vince Carter was far and away the best player and the Pacers, on which any of Jalen Rose, Reggie Miller or Jermaine O'Neal might have been the best player but none were especially good). Statistically those were the 8th, 13th and 18th best teams in the NBA that year. Plus that 01' Lakers team wasn't anything special either, Kobe, Shaq and a whole lot of mediocre-on-a-good-day. An ancient Horrace Grant was probably the third best player on the team. And the Sixers still lost pretty convincingly.

This is in addition to the fact that the current Wizards team is a shaky analog for either team and all that stuff Nate said.

Edit: So basically my point is that if you want to be really successful starting two big men who are really bad offensively you need a guy who can basically carry your entire offense (like AI, Barry, or LeBron on the recent Cavs teams) and you need the rest of the NBA and especially your conference to suck tremendously, and even then you probably need better offense than JaVale and Kevin can provide.

[hands11]

But McGee has always been a rail thin kid. He also has a big momma who has out shinned him.

But McGee has some determination. He also has some new muscles for the first time in his life.
He also is still just a baby at 22.

Haywood didn't toughen up at 22. It was more like 26

I still don't think McGee is a starting quality center right now. I would rather see Seraphin.

At 7-1 252 he is to thin. But once he gets to about 270, which he body an easily handle, and gets another year or more of experience, he will be starter quality.

The kid is still a freak athlete. How many 7-1 centers in year 3 make the NBA dunk contest ?

Seraphin has some good instincts, but let's not go overboard in our praise. Fact is, Seraphin posts a PER of 8.1. He shoots 38% from the floor and averages 3 turnovers and 9 fouls per 36 minutes while posting the worst on/off differential on our active roster.

I'm in favor if getting Seraphin more minutes here and there, but there's no way he should be a starter.

I have no doubt his PER would go up with more minutes as it already has. His PER used to be like -12. But it isn't even about that as much as his ability to set picks, move centers out of the middle, how active and definitive he moves on pick and rolls, etc.

But it sounds like in pregame for the NJ, McGee is going to get the start again. And get this, he was talking about getting film on Lopez. When did McGee start watching film ? And, who doesn't expect Lopez to get school him.

But first things first for Seraphin. Hopefully Flip starts to work him in more often.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

nate, you shot me down on this one below.

I didn't want to go back real world stuff and leave you hanging, but admit I got nothing,

I just think if Booker and Seraphin can play together I'd like to see McGee and Seraphin.

CCJ, how many teams in the league start two big men who have no outside shot, no ball handling skills, no passing skills and are turnover machines whenever asked to make a decision?

The strength and length combo might work defensively (for a while until Seraphin fouls out), but it would be an abject disaster on offense. You need four effective offensive players on the floor if you want to score in this league.

Frankly, defense isn't our problem. With Arenas gone and Blatche playing a little better defensively, our team has been, dare I say, excellent on defense. In eight of our last ten games, we have held our opposition to a worse-than-average offensive efficiency. Our DRtg over the past 10 games is 98.5, which would rank 5th in the league. Take away the awful peformance last game in Philly and our DRtg would be 96.2 and we would lead the league!

Our problem is that we can't score.

Golden State swept the Wizards for a title with Clifford Ray and George Johnson. Philly won game one against perhaps the best modern-era Laker team starting Tyrone Hill and Dikembe Mutombo (or was it Theo Ratliff?). George Lynch had no offensive game to speak of. Serge Ibaka and Nick Collison finish games for OKC.

You say defense isn't the problem and I ask who does Blatche stop from penetrating and attacking the rim, especially in the fourth when Flip has him at C? How are Javale and McGee defensively?

With Seraphin how much sample space do you have to say how awful he would be offensively or with turnovers?

Is it possible McGee with Seraphin would create offense from their defense? Does Seraphin stop some bigs from entering the paint? Can't defense create offense?

C'mon CCJ. You can't be serious. You can't honestly believe that by swapping Seraphin for Blatche, our defense would be so much improved that we would generate enough fast break opportunities that it would actually be better offensively than having Blatche at PF - or Lewis, or even Yi.

Those successful teams that you mentioned took place in a different era. And even the Iverson Sixers had Matt Geiger at PF - a guy who could hit a 15 footer. Gieger is light years ahead of Seraphin on offense.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Ed, great post. You even went old school on me.

Yes, the Wiz would need a superstar. Barry is/was polarizing for sure.

Ugh, CCJ, the successful teams you're citing are from perhaps the two eras in the last forty years that were most conductive to a team being able to succeed without a whole lot of talent; the eastern conference in the early part of this decade and the NBA in general in the mid-to-late Seventies. Those are also two of the few teams that were able to be really really successful despite being incredibly reliant offensively on a single player, and the Wizards definitely do not have an Allen Iverson or Rick Barry on the roster.

Despite relying on the biggest jerk ever that Warriors team had a top five offensive and defensive rating. They also ran into a total of like two maybe two and a half really good big guys in the entire playoffs, Unseld, Spencer Haywood and Bob Love (eh), none of whom were really great, especially not offensively. The Bulls also had Chet Walker but I think he was more of a small forward. If anything, the Warriors were the only really good offensive team in the playoffs and beat a bunch of defense first teams of which only those Bullets were at top ten offensive team, suggesting that balance is important.

That Sixers team beat a Bucks team that was basically a worse version of the Nash Suns, with the immortal Irving "the other one" Johnson at center, and two forgettable teams (the Raptors, on which a young Vince Carter was far and away the best player and the Pacers, on which any of Jalen Rose, Reggie Miller or Jermaine O'Neal might have been the best player but none were especially good). Statistically those were the 8th, 13th and 18th best teams in the NBA that year. Plus that 01' Lakers team wasn't anything special either, Kobe, Shaq and a whole lot of mediocre-on-a-good-day. An ancient Horrace Grant was probably the third best player on the team. And the Sixers still lost pretty convincingly.

This is in addition to the fact that the current Wizards team is a shaky analog for either team and all that stuff Nate said.

Edit: So basically my point is that if you want to be really successful starting two big men who are really bad offensively you need a guy who can basically carry your entire offense (like AI, Barry, or LeBron on the recent Cavs teams) and you need the rest of the NBA and especially your conference to suck tremendously, and even then you probably need better offense than JaVale and Kevin can provide.

[nate33]

nate, you shot me down on this one below.

I didn't want to go back real world stuff and leave you hanging, but admit I got nothing,

I just think if Booker and Seraphin can play together I'd like to see McGee and Seraphin.

[AXL2018]

ur a dumass lol

[WizarDynasty]

our starting center plays 25 minutes and gets one rebound. Again, D.Jordan picked 35 and I guarantee you that this would never happen with a true "tough" center. But 25 minutes. He can't count on him to score clutch shots in the post when you need it. that's what starting centers are suppose to do. A center's territory is closer to the basket than any of the other 4 positions on the court yet our center is extremely ineffective in the traditional "center scoring territory" when we need him to score clutch baskets. And when we needed him to grab boards for us on the road in 25 minutes, he could only grab 1.
This would never happen with D. JOrdan, did EG make another bad pick here when Jordan was available?
so yes 25 minutes 1 rebound, road game in charlotte.

[DaRealHibachi]

our starting center plays 25 minutes and gets one rebound. Again, D.Jordan picked 35 and I guarantee you that this would never happen with a true "tough" center. But 25 minutes. He can't count on him to score clutch shots in the post when you need it. that's what starting centers are suppose to do. A center's territory is closer to the basket than any of the other 4 positions on the court yet our center is extremely ineffective in the traditional "center scoring territory" when we need him to score clutch baskets. And when we needed him to grab boards for us on the road in 25 minutes, he could only grab 1.
This would never happen with D. JOrdan, did EG make another bad pick here when Jordan was available?
so yes 25 minutes 1 rebound, road game in charlotte.

Yeah, b/c 2 rebounds in 24,5 minutes at home is much more impressive right...???

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30LAC.html

Oh, and McGee played 23 minutes... Get your facts straight...

[WizarDynasty]

the whole point of this thread is that D.JOrdan looks to be a better starting center than Java. you are pulling up stats at the beginning of the season and comparing them to a regressing Java. There is no comparison. Java is given the starting position and look at his performance. When you have a comparable game where D.Jordan starts and regresses the way Java does, then your post will have relevance. Java is a non tough and has no business starting at center because he isn't qualified.

[Ed Wood]

Well I guess the point of everyone in the thread but you WD is that we disagree with that assertion and think that JaVale is a better center than Jordan now and has more room for future improvement than Jordan as well. And I don't know what the hell you're talking about when you mention regression. JaVale's strongest month of the season was December and January has probably been the second strongest to this point, or roughly on par with November at worst. JaVale had a lackluster outing yesterday, a regression of all of one game. You have no business arguing that he is regressing because your argument isn't qualified.

[pancakes3]

1 - they look pretty much identical to me, both in-game and statistically. Javale has an edge in blocked shots and "oh my gosh" plays.

2 - even if Deandre Jordan WAS a lot better... so what? we should bench mcgee? trade mcgee? fire EG for a minor draft mistake made 3 years ago? what should i do?

[WizarDynasty]

What you failed to realize is that i have touched upon a universal truth about the center position--center is suppose to be your toughest of your starting five--not the strongest just toughest. Our point guard is tougher than our center.
Java is not going to improve is toughness because toughness can't be improved upon.

The one consistent trait that Javale shows every game is that he isn't tough and that lack of toughness is going to put us at a major disadvantage every game where he starts. so just be prepared to have keep creating excuses for Javale is qualified to be a starting center even though he is the least tough starting center in the league.

Javale being the least tough starting center in the league is like slow rotting support beams of your build. No matter how fabulous the house looks on the outside, any wise person familiar with what an elite playoff center is composed of, knows that whenever they need to make a comeback in a game, all they need to do is play their power card and attacks McGee with tough players and he will fold like a house of cards.

Your starting center is the alpha male on the team. Yeah you had michael jordan and scottie pippen but you best believe that if a fight broke down...michael and scottie where looking for cartwright to protect. They might be dominant on teh court, but as far as man to man physical dominance, the centers on both teams are suppose to be the most dominant man to man.

The wizards and you fans want to ignore this fact but just because you ignore doesn't mean it doesn't have an demoralizing affect on the team during clutch moments of the game and your center shows just how "tough he is". Everyone on the team looks up to the center and respects his toughness because its one of the most physically demanding positions on a play to play basis.

The centers dominance completely opens up skilled players. A center is equivalent to an offense and defensive line in football. There is alot of grimy work that goes on but if it isn't done, your skilled position are put at a disadvantage every play. If your offensive line outperforms the defensive line, the people that shine are the wide receivers, running backs and quarter backs. If the offensive line can't pass block or protect the qb, rb, and wr all look really bad even if they are good.

McGee blocking shots is equivalent to a defensive back knocking down a pass from a quarterback. It looks nice and pretty on film, but its far more important for a defensive line to consistently put pressure on a qb to force him to make bad decisions. McGee as the center is open up driving lanes for his team just as an offensive line opens up running lanes for their running back. McGee is suppose to cut off any advantageous angles on defense that the offense creates close to rim.

That is a physical task that a starting center is expected to do just as nfl defensive or offensive line fights for on every play with no recognition. There are no stats for sacrificing a shot block and instead box out two players so that your team mate can get the rebound. Instead we have our starting center sprinting down the court hoping for a out let pass so that he can dunk from the free throw line. People, he is fine as our "Bird Man" but no matter how strong he gets, he is never going to be tough mentally. A center is far to important to a team success. Imagine if all the focus of the nfl defensive line was to get the sack..., the entire defense would break down because all the players would be focused on getting to the qb and could care less if he breaks open for a long scramble...or would care less if a running back runs right pass them because their opportunity for getting a block is gone. this is the mentality you see with Javale when he goal tends or chases in from teh free throw line hoping to catch a put back instead... of doing the grunt work that the offensive line doesn't get recognition for when they protect their qb for extra amount of time and this allows the qb to throw a touch down pass. the w/r is never running back and thanking the offensive line even though without them, nothing would be possible.


this is the case with Java. Without him doing the grunt work that is expected of a center===aka the offensive and defensive line in football=== none our skilled position will shine and we won't be able to execute a continous strategy. Much of football is won at the offensive line---is a battle of man to man toughness---who is able to maintain that same amount of toughness for 4th quarters normally wins. we don't see any stats for how many times a offensive linemen knocks his man into ground and allows for a running back to get a touchdown but if he didn't do it the team wouldn't not have one.

That's the case with Java starting, if he doesn't do the grunt work that a traditional center is suppose to do, we can't establish dominance when the other team knows our playbook. the deciding factor when another team knows your playbook...is which team is tougher...who wins the slug battle and shows more toughness. that's the team that wins and the center is the toughest and the small things he does don't show up in the stat sheet just as offensive linemen knocking there man backwords for a touchdown doesn't show in a boxscore but it was key to the play working.

we need a center that enjoys being successful and the tough aspect of the center position and understand just how important those small battles are. McGee could care less about the true and nature and importance of a being tough as a center which is why he shouldn't start and never should start as a center. He doesn't have toughness in his personality and you don't ask a line backer to play nose guard.
Its a grimy job and Java wants nothing to do with the grimy side of being a center but a center establishes the core identity of team when the game gets tough. McGee is not the center you want when the game gets tough on teh road.

[DaRealHibachi]

What you failed to realize is that i have touched upon a universal truth about the center position--center is suppose to be your toughest of your starting five--not the strongest just toughest. Our point guard is tougher than our center.
Java is not going to improve is toughness because toughness can't be improved upon.

The one consistent trait that Javale shows every game is that he isn't tough and that lack of toughness is going to put us at a major disadvantage every game where he starts. so just be prepared to have keep creating excuses for Javale is qualified to be a starting center even though he is the least tough starting center in the league.

Javale being the least tough starting center in the league is like slow rotting support beams of your build. No matter how fabulous the house looks on the outside, any wise person familiar with what an elite playoff center is composed of, knows that whenever they need to make a comeback in a game, all they need to do is play their power card and attacks McGee with tough players and he will fold like a house of cards.

WizD, what YOU fail to realize in EVERY SINGLE ONE of your arguments, is that there's no specific way to build a team, nor are there specific heights or weights, brains or strength that'll make you a winning team... Every time you present your arguments, they're shot down by posters who find that certain (in some cases even many) type/types of players that don't fit your description of a winning team...

In this case, not every team's C is toughest player... The Championship Lakers have Bynum as their C, and he isn't toughest on that team, far from it...

And yeah, McGee isn't tough... So what are you going to do about it...??? You always have something to say about the team, but never offer a solution... You never put yourself in the shoes of the GM at the time, or the coach or whatever... You always bring up things AFTER they happened... Yeah Jordan may be playing well right now, but who knew that would happen 3 years ago...??? There's a reason he dropped all the way to 35 you know...

[WizarDynasty]

Andrew Bynum "not toughed". Which laker big man is tougher than Bynum. Ok, moving on. Bynum is tough but i have more important things to discuss.

[Ed Wood]

I'm sure you do.

And the fact that Pau Gasol is not known for his physicality does't mean that Bynum is especially tough. If you're saying that a center need only be 'arder than the team's power forward then I guess we'd be cool if Andray was a little softer... like if he were mostly made out of baby butts instead of just butt.

Also three of the five greatest centers of all time were long thin athletes like JaVale (Olajuwon, Russell and Abdul Jabbar) and Bill Walton was also pretty rangy. Hell Jabbar was even considered to be a soft player, but he did almost beat Bruce Lee, so I guess you've got to give it to him over McGee.

[WizarDynasty]

Dennis Rodman was skinny but tough, Tyson Chandler is skinny but tough, Dikembe Mutumbo was skinny but tough, David Robinson was pretty skinny but tough, the list goes on and on. Kevin Garnett is skinny but tough. you don't need huge muscles or alot of body weight to be tough.

Javale McGee is not tough which is why he should never ever be our starting center. If he someone how got involved in a life altering event that made him tough...maybe a POW camp, or stranded on a an island and had to fight for his survival...but adding body weight is not going to make Javale tough.

Thin...has nothing to do with Javale being non tough. that is just who he is as a person. He is birdman of Denver and Birdman should never start regardless of how many shots he blocks, or the fact that he might grab ten plus rebounds every five games.

Our center is to our team what an nfl offensive and defensive line is for a football team. Center wins battles through sheer will power...not through schemes just as offensive and defensive lineman explode and grab each other like sumo wrestlers at the beginning of each play and whichever one is the most dominant gives an advantage for his skilled players. And many times the smaller sumo wrestler beats the bigger sumo wrestlers out of sheer will power heart and determination. WE have learned in 3 years that McGee what lies in McGee's heart and it definitely isn't battling for position so that you can open up a driving lane for your skilled team mate. His heart is an alleyhoop or dribbling from teh half court line for a free throw dunk. Don't get me wrong, McGee is part of our future, but he is apart of our bench future just a birdman and davis are for boston.
Javale has enough body weight to win battles physically he just doesn't have the toughness and he never will. Javale wants to dunk from the free throw line, not fight to maintain an advantageous spot in the post.

Coaching is not going to change his heart people, he doesn't like to fight to get an advantage, he will never be the tough starting center we need to win the grimy battles when another team knows exactly what we are going to do in our play and the only advantage we can get is mcgee beating his man at position on the floor and fighting to maintain that position until the entire play is executed.
The whole point is that McGee is not a fighter. Playing in the post in nothing but a fight especially when the team has you heavily scouted which is what is occuring now. the team knows what we are doing and the only way for us to get a particular advantage is for our big or offensive or defensive line to beat his man to a spot and hold that spot until a skilled player can execute. Javale doesn't not have the heart to continously battle to give his skilled player an opening. It's just not how McGee is built. Birdman bench player if we ever expect to go deep in the playoffs because his heart is not going to change.

[nate33]

I think McGee has a certain level of fearlessness in some aspects of the game. He certainly isn't shy about trying to throw down a dunk or block a shot in traffic even when he is unsure of where he's going to land. I don't know if he can harness and expand that fearlessness into a toughness that extends into other avenues of the game, but I think it's possible.

The bottom line is that, for now, we don't have any other guy on the roster who has any potential to be a starting center. McGee is all we've got so there's no use arguing about it. I have no problems with looking for another center to replace him - so long as it's a young guy who can grow with Wall. I do think we have higher priorities though. Right now, our PF situation is terrible unless Blatche has a miraculous turnaround.

[Wizards2Lottery]

McGee has a motor that you can't teach. I'd rather bank on a relentless motor like his and hope he gets it than stick with a loser like Blatche who has a feel for the game but doesn't care out there.