What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

From 1/24/12, after Flip Saunders was fired. NBC Sports

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... ds-tenure/

There was no development. For example, John Wall seems to have taken a step back this year, a year most people expected him to explode.

[tontoz]

Having doubts about Wall's game is a far cry from thinking the guy is going to be a bust. I have doubts myself, especially about his shot and to a much lesser extent his ability to reduce turnovers. I don't see the word bust anywhere in those links. They also don't address the lockout or the fact that many of last teams best shooters are gone, not to mention the stupidity of the players on this team.

Wall's current PER of 18.02 is better than 2nd year Westbrook and only marginally behind Rose's 2nd year 18.69. Bust? I think not.

And i don't think it is surprising that a second year player gets off to a slow start without having the benefit of summer league, training camp and a full preseason. A few weeks ago when everyone was dogging him i said that people were overreacting. I said they must be forgetting how well Wall played in the second half of last season.

Anyway i don't feel like i have much to add at this point. But i would suggest that you stick to posting your own opinions unless you have something more substantive backing you up. If you had just stuck to saying what you believed then i probably wouldn't have even said anything even though i remembered your posts from last season.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

From 1/5/12: One comment out of 182, (not all critical of Wall--some were quite supportive), to an article below:

I've been singing this tune since early last year. In fact, I saw nothing special in JW's game worthy of the 1 pick, and still don't. Many refer to his "immense talents" and I'm at a loss to what specific basketball talents they're referring to. Even in this article, Boswell refers to "creative passing" as one of his strengths. Really? I don't see it.

There are many things to like about John Wall as a person -- his general demeanor, charisma, politeness, respect, honesty... but it does him, the team and the organization no good, as this article suggests, to soft-peddle the obvious flaws in his game.

Tom Boswell, of the Washington Post had this to say about Wall:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wi ... story.html

Right now, the Washington Wizards have an enormous responsibility to Wall. They need to see him clearly and let him know that, despite his big contract, his No. 1 overall draft pick status, his face-of-franchise public relations role and his obvious talents, he is still not yet a good NBA player.

In two respects, he is actually one of the worst players in the league.

Last year, Wall was second in the NBA in turnovers per game among starting players. Everybody noticed, including Wall. It’s a hard stat to miss.

However, another number, slightly below the radar, but crucial in the NBA is “effective field goal percentage.” It’s the best measure of overall shooting ability, both from two-point and three-point range. (The formula is field goals plus half of made three-pointers divided by field goal attempts, according to basketball-reference.com). Last year, Wall tied with Travis Outlaw for the NBA’s lowest eFG percentage at .427 (minimum 1,600 minutes). Now, he’s fallen to .420 (career). He has no company at that level.

tontoz, when I said a lot of people were wondering if Wall is a bust, that is my own words. I stand corrected by you. You can read exactly what others were wondering. If he went number 1 overall, and was one of the worst at turnovers and shooting, that caused this writer to wonder.

tontoz, if you read some of the comments of others, they weren't at all very supportive of Wall throughout. Others wondered.

My whole point in entering in discussion at all about Wall, is that he is playing a whole lot better this past 5 weeks than at any point in his career. It has been very, very, very noticeable to me.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

John Wall is certainly more of a reason they are 0-6 than a solution to the problem at this point. Too much too soon?!? He is just not in the company of any elite PG right now. I agree with this article wholeheartedly. I thought coming into this season (stupidly based on the summer games) that Wall was going to be hitting 30 pt maybe 40 pt nights every half dozen games while hovering around 7/8 assists and quite a few boards for a PG. I really thought he was going to have explosive outputs. Shows you how much I know. I guess I bought into the same hype that I hope Wall is not buying into, but I am beginning to wonder.

[queridiculo]

Love the selective quoting and bold type facing, and what's the deal with quoting the comments section?

I know you're trying to make a point CCJ, but I would have expected better from you.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Love the selective quoting and bold type facing.

I know you're trying to make a point CCJ, but I would have expected better from you.

Nah, after tontoz tried to clown me for saying many people thought Wall was a bust, all I am doing is showing exactly what I thought and what others thought. It is impossible to engage in intelligent debate when people start mocking you, calling you a liar, posting jpgs and other stupidity because they disagree with you. hermitkid, you might be surprised and expect better from me because you rarely see me really get into with someone.

I have disagreed sharply with the people I respect the most on this site. Nivek, nate, Ruzious, Dat2U are among those I have differed with. Yet, it never gets stupid with those guys. tontoz and I just got into it and he insists I'm making up stuff or speaking for others. I don't think so.

I think Wall has turned the corner but for a long time he played very poorly. I think Wall has received benefit of a doubt time and again. He played bad basketball but couldn't be criticized in this forum for people like tontoz.

I don't know what selected quotes have to do with anything. I posted a quote from Preuti in an article where the very first thing the guy says is very much the opposite of what I said.

Bottom line is Wall is very polarizing. It is like you can't say ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM. IMO if John Wall had been better in the past, the Wizard's record would have been better. What saves Wall is he is 2 years younger than Jeremy Lin and leaps and bounds better physically. John Wall is worth the time and investment to build around. However, until he started hitting shots from 3-15 feet, and getting to the line more because he attacked the rim better, I wouldn't have said this.

Wall has gone from playing like a liability the first 15 or so games, to playing like a very good player the last 15 or so games.

Yesterday, if not for Ilyasova, Wall scored the game winner. He is all that you'd expect of a #1 pick, 21 years old, right now.

[tontoz]

Love the selective quoting and bold type facing, and what's the deal with quoting the comments section?

I know you're trying to make a point CCJ, but I would have expected better from you.

I like CCJ's posts for the most part. However he likes to make predictions and he spends a lot of time either:

1) reminding us of predictions he got right.
2) defending predictions which might not be right

I think this frequently clouds his judgement and leads him to post excessively on the same topic when the majority of the board disagrees with him.

[tontoz]

Love the selective quoting and bold type facing.

I know you're trying to make a point CCJ, but I would have expected better from you.

I think Wall has turned the corner but for a long time he played very poorly. I think Wall has received benefit of a doubt time and again. He played bad basketball but couldn't be criticized in this forum for people like tontoz.

I don't know what selected quotes have to do with anything. I posted a quote from Preuti in an article where the very first thing the guy says is very much the opposite of what I said.

Bottom line is Wall is very polarizing. It is like you can't say ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM. IMO if John Wall had been better in the past, the Wizard's record would have been better. .

First of all i was one of WAlls biggest critics about 13 months ago. Secondly that post i pulled from the end of last season has friends. Do you really want me to go digging again?

Saying other people have doubts about WAll is a far cry from saying that they think he will/might be a bust.

Saying Wall is playing like crap is different from saying he might be a bust. for some reason you constantly feel the need to make long term predictions. You are the one who has said Wall is a potential superstar, not me.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Love the selective quoting and bold type facing, and what's the deal with quoting the comments section?

I know you're trying to make a point CCJ, but I would have expected better from you.

I like CCJ's posts for the most part. However he likes to make predictions and he spends a lot of time either:

1) reminding us of predictions he got right.
2) defending predictions which might not be right

I think this frequently clouds his judgement and leads him to post excessively on the same topic when the majority of the board disagrees with him.

I agree.

Just bear in mind there have been times the rest of the board has been wrong. Cousins a team cancer? 22 and 18 in a win over Utah last night. I don't know. Wall better than Cousins? Yeah, I guess. But one guy's fourth in the league in rebounding, second if you go by percentage.

I post excessively on a lot of stuff. I do stick with my opinions until I am dead wrong. In my mind I think Morris Almond with license to shoot like Nick Young could be just as good. Most will definitely disagree with me, but I'm not giving up, yet.

I would really rather talk about guys like Reggie Hamilton, Ricardo Ratliff, and Will Barton -- underrated NBA prospects.

Last log on the Wall fire, for tontoz:

Why is it when you sort by 1 Year Adjusted +/- and by 1 Year Unadjusted overall rating, Shelvin Mack has a better rating than John Wall.

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=WAS

How is that possible?

[TGW]

Last log on the Wall fire, for tontoz:

Why is it when you sort by 1 Year Adjusted +/- and by 1 Year Unadjusted overall rating, Shelvin Mack has a better rating than John Wall.

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=WAS

How is that possible?

Geezus H. Krist, CCJ. Are you really going to use that link to prove your point? Look at the top 5 guys on that list. LOOK AT IT.

1. Ndiaye
2. Turiaf
3. Seraphin
4. Mack
5. Mason

Does that say anything to you at all?

I think you have valid points in regards to Wall on certain things (more specifically, too many turns), but this "statistic" you just posted is just gawd awful. We get it...you don't like Wall. But please stop reaching, bro.

[Nivek]

Without delving into the minute-by-minute lineup data, one possible reason for Mack having a better +/- score than Wall is that Wall plays a ton of minutes with a bunch of schlubs and has far fewer garbage minutes.

Another reason could be that the one-year +/- data is essentially meaningless. Look at the standard error for Wall and Mack -- HUGE. So big that the data should not be used to reach any conclusions about either guy.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Last log on the Wall fire, for tontoz:

Why is it when you sort by 1 Year Adjusted +/- and by 1 Year Unadjusted overall rating, Shelvin Mack has a better rating than John Wall.

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=WAS

How is that possible?

Geezus H. Krist, CCJ. Are you really going to use that link to prove your point? Look at the top 5 guys on that list. LOOK AT IT.

1. Ndiaye
2. Turiaf
3. Seraphin
4. Mack
5. Mason

Does that say anything to you at all?

I think you have valid points in regards to Wall on certain things (more specifically, too many turns), but this "statistic" you just posted is just gawd awful. We get it...you don't like Wall. But please stop reaching, bro.

You don't get it at all. I posted I do like Wall now. Repeatedly said the past 15 or so games he's turned it around. Repeated pointed out this is really about an argument over my credibility and something only between tontoz and me. Repeatedly pointed out that most of these post are from the time frame when I questioned whether he was a bust. Repeatedly have clarified, quantified, and directly quoted.

If you get it, you got that I said Wall has played dramatically better recently, TGW.

tontoz asked if Wall was playing like a superstar NOW and I did answer his post. That is the present. I have opinions which are strong, but I do keep track of what is going on NOW.

I also said I am not backing down from what I said that started this in the first place.

[Dat2U]

Just bear in mind there have been times the rest of the board has been wrong. Cousins a team cancer? 22 and 18 in a win over Utah last night. I don't know. Wall better than Cousins? Yeah, I guess. But one guy's fourth in the league in rebounding, second if you go by percentage.

And where were you when Cousins went 6-20 in DC? You can only post after Cousins has a good game?

And why in the hell does a talented C like Cousins have a TS% of .498. Which is lower than Wall's at .512.

[tontoz]

The +/- argument really needs to die. Wall plays 37 minutes per game, more on games that are tight at the end. That means Mack is frequently playing in garbage time. They aren't scoring more points when Mack plays they are just giving up less.

Somehow i doubt that short, slow footed Mack is a significantly better defender than Wall. I think it is more likely a case of the other teams having their scrubs in during garbage time.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Just bear in mind there have been times the rest of the board has been wrong. Cousins a team cancer? 22 and 18 in a win over Utah last night. I don't know. Wall better than Cousins? Yeah, I guess. But one guy's fourth in the league in rebounding, second if you go by percentage.

And where were you when Cousins went 6-20 in DC? You can only post after Cousins has a good game?

And why in the hell does a talented C like Cousins have a TS% of .498. Which is lower than Wall's at .512.

I am here when Cousins shoots poorly and I posted following the Wizards loss to Sacramento.

His TS is mighty low. His PER and his WS and WS/48 are higher than Wall's. I think Wall is obviously far better physically, Dat. Cousins leads the league in charges taken. Battier does things like that and he's not considered a team cancer--quite the opposite. He killed one coach, but did so along with Tyreke Evans playing as bad or worse.

Not to engage with you other than to say for all your posts where you repeatedly say Wall for Cousins and a pick is bad, I still disagree with you. You just can't say that with certainty IMO.

[TGW]

You don't get it at all. I posted I do like Wall now. Repeatedly said the past 15 or so games he's turned it around. Repeated pointed out this is really about an argument over my credibility and something only between tontoz and me. Repeatedly pointed out that most of these post are from the time frame when I questioned whether he was a bust. Repeatedly have clarified, quantified, and directly quoted.

If you get it, you got that I said Wall has played dramatically better recently, TGW.

tontoz asked if Wall was playing like a superstar NOW and I did answer his post. That is the present. I have opinions which are strong, but I do keep track of what is going on NOW.

I also said I am not backing down from what I said that started this in the first place.

No, I do get it...stop acting like a child. You don't like John Wall...just own up to it. Otherwise, you wouldn't have posted that horsedung of a link to try and prove a [biased] point. And just because you wrote "I like John Wall" after posting it doesn't mean a thing. If you're worried about credibility (and I don't know why—people respect your opinion on this board), posting a link like that is NOT going to raise it.

If I used those numbers to show that NDyaie and Turiaf were better than Cousins, I guarantee you would have a problem with that. Stop trying to hide your bias.

[tontoz]

Just went looking through some of my old posts. This was from Jan of last season which was pretty typical for me then.

Wall is just a garbage can. He has been the Thunder's 6th man.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1087856&start=180

Looking at Jan this season.

Wall is shooting 22% or worse from 3-9 feet, 10-15 feet and 16-23 feet. That is just horrible.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1152130&start=15

I am very concerned with his jumper which is putrid and realistically shouldn't be affected by the garbage cans around him. An open shot is an open shot and he isn't making them. many of them are missing by a lot.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1151224&start=315


It isn't like i have treated Wall with kid gloves.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

TGW, you are telling me what I like. You are saying I am acting like a child. YOU conclude, TODAY, I don't like Wall based on the past few posts I made.

It is like you overheard a conversation and caught the tail end of it and yet you think you caught all of it.

Here is exactly how I feel about John Hildred Wall, as of 2/28/12:

Whatever mental shift he made to his game starting around the beginning of February has made him far more effective. I assume it was a mental shift because since that time he has played more assertively. Wall has gotten to the line more. His midrange shot has improved statistically. He has force far fewer jumpers and he has played hero ball far less. He has made astute comments in the media that show patience and poise. He has thanked Steve Nash for giving him good advice. Sam Cassell said it is as if the light came ON with Wall. By Sam saying that, I know I am not the only one who thought the light was not on with Wall. I thought he played like a rocket man and I questioned his leadership ability. NOW, I think Wall is being a very good leader. He is playing patiently. He is sticking to his strengths and not forcing jump shots. Wall, since Mo Evans mentioned it following the Knicks game, has run the PnR well. I think Randy Wittman has put Wall in the best position to succeed, other than perhaps still playing John too many minutes.

I think Wall is maturing as we speak. I no longer think he is cocky and blames the rest of his team as if he has no weaknesses to his game. I see Wall playing with more discipline, a whole lot more confidence, and IMO with a chip. I am glad to see Wall angry about the Rising Stars challenge. Wall is playing even harder now than he used to IMO. I am noticing blocked shots where he runs down guys at the rim.

So, TGW, you can tell me what YOU THINK I LIKE. Or, you can take my word for it.

The past 5 weeks Wall has been a whole lot better.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall did not keep jacking. Wall does not blame the rest of his team. Wall has not pouted in the media. Wall has not tried to play hero ball time and again.

These things would make me say the guy is a bust or a very poor leader and a guy the Wizards should trade.

NO, John Wall has done the opposite.

His turnovers and shooting don't even bother me at all now. His leadership and his competitiveness is what I worried about. Lately he has silenced all my doubts and made me want to say I like him now.

[tontoz]

The past 5 weeks Wall has been a whole lot better.

Sounds a lot like what you were saying this time last season.

Apparently, healing from injuries and the clearing up of circumstances beyond Wall's have all made things better for the top pick.

It wasn't until the week before the break when Wall's game came around. He wasn't showing anywhere near what he's shown the past two weeks, with the exception of a handful of games early on in the season. He's really confident since getting MVP and the assist record last weekend.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1095890&start=255


From march last season

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/2011/
Check Wall's last few games. I click on Date of the Game Logs so it shows them in reverse order chronologically. By the far right, Game Score, Wall's been really good the last 15 or so games.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1081934&start=225