The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[fishercob]

This thread should be re-titled the amazingly sucky Phil Jackson thread. Or Red Auerbach, or Pat Riley, or Jerry Sloan. You could put them all at the helm of this team and they'd be what they are.

It's the players.

Read it again, this time say it out loud.

It's the players.

I only watched a little bit of the Minny game. What I did watch was with an old buddy with whom I learned a lot about the game. We did a decent amount of pausing, breaking down sets, mistakes, etc.

The Wizards defensive effort was ludicrously bad. There was on sequence where Butler got mismatched on a post player (I think Love, but maybe Al). Jamison was the closest defender. Inthat situation there are two options. First, and the far better option, is to double team HARD, and force the post guy to make a pass (and to rotate defensively). The second is to keep with your man, while stay playing good "help-side" principles (ball-you-man, etc). Jamison did neither. He just stood in no-man's land. Close enough to Butler so that he wasn't covering his own man, but nowhere near close to enough to be considered doubling the ball. That's not a scheme thing. I'd bet any amount of money that Saunders would vomit if he saw the tape of that sequence.

It's just Jamison's wiring -- he doesn't care about defense, but has convinced himself he has (sort of like the compulsive liar that believes his own BS). It's permeated the entire team as, not surprisingly, our two best scorers pay mere lip service to defense.

These types of threads existed in Boston before the KG and Allen deals a couple summers ago. Bill Simmons wrote multiple columns about how bad a coach Rivers was. Yet now he's a champion and may win another this year. It's the players -- who not only have the talent, but the desire and pride to win by any means necessary, even if it hurts, or isn't sexy or marketable. Eddie Jordan could have won a title with that team guys (gasp! But EJ's the coaching anti-christ, right??).

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go. Much as it pains me to say it, Gilbert probably needs to go too if we're ever going to compete for a title. Maybe he's young and talented enough that with the right guys around him he could change, but shidt, if he hasn't changed yet, then who are we kidding?

Ernie gave it a shot, but his formula didn't work. We need new leadership in the FO and new players if the culture is ever going to change here. I hate that I'm saying it, but I believe it now.

[LyricalRico]

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

This thread should be re-titled the amazingly sucky Phil Jackson thread. Or Red Auerbach, or Pat Riley, or Jerry Sloan. You could put them all at the helm of this team and they'd be what they are.

It's the players.

Read it again, this time say it out loud.

It's the players.

I only watched a little bit of the Minny game. What I did watch was with an old buddy with whom I learned a lot about the game. We did a decent amount of pausing, breaking down sets, mistakes, etc.

The Wizards defensive effort was ludicrously bad. There was on sequence where Butler got mismatched on a post player (I think Love, but maybe Al). Jamison was the closest defender. Inthat situation there are two options. First, and the far better option, is to double team HARD, and force the post guy to make a pass (and to rotate defensively). The second is to keep with your man, while stay playing good "help-side" principles (ball-you-man, etc). Jamison did neither. He just stood in no-man's land. Close enough to Butler so that he wasn't covering his own man, but nowhere near close to enough to be considered doubling the ball. That's not a scheme thing. I'd bet any amount of money that Saunders would vomit if he saw the tape of that sequence.

It's just Jamison's wiring -- he doesn't care about defense, but has convinced himself he has (sort of like the compulsive liar that believes his own BS). It's permeated the entire team as, not surprisingly, our two best scorers pay mere lip service to defense.

These types of threads existed in Boston before the KG and Allen deals a couple summers ago. Bill Simmons wrote multiple columns about how bad a coach Rivers was. Yet now he's a champion and may win another this year. It's the players -- who not only have the talent, but the desire and pride to win by any means necessary, even if it hurts, or isn't sexy or marketable. Eddie Jordan could have won a title with that team guys (gasp! But EJ's the coaching anti-christ, right??).

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go. Much as it pains me to say it, Gilbert probably needs to go too if we're ever going to compete for a title. Maybe he's young and talented enough that with the right guys around him he could change, but shidt, if he hasn't changed yet, then who are we kidding?

Ernie gave it a shot, but his formula didn't work. We need new leadership in the FO and new players if the culture is ever going to change here. I hate that I'm saying it, but I believe it now.

The coach played Jamison and Butler 40 minutes, including all the fourth.

Instead, he could sit Jamison down. Give him and Butler a 15 minute night. Bench them like FLip did just one time against Philly. When Flip's talking about shortening the rotation, but he continues to have Butler and Jamison on the floor together about 30-35 minutes instead of only 20 or so minutes, I think he's not that good.

It is the players, fisher, but the coach has no stones as far as I am concerned.

Phil Jackson took his lumps with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown logging heavy minutes. That team had Kobe and noone else. This Wizard team has a lot of talent on it. I wasn't great at statistics but I do know that Flip's got many permutations and combinations that he hasn't even considered.

The Butler/Jamison/Oberto/Stevenson approach that to me, along with the short bench notion, all hardwired into Flip's thinking just aren't the best ways to go with this team.

Now that Foye is back starting, the coach really needs to get McGee back in there with Blatche or Haywood. Heck, even Flip's "best post defender", Oberto, with Javale gives the team a different look.

Flip is very frustrating for me to watch. As much so as the players, because he's like a guy who has a sports car but really just needs a pickup truck. This roster doesn't suit him and he's not IMO fully cognizant of the way to get the best out of this team.

Neither were the other "coaches" before: Jordan and Tapscott. EJ did get offense and he made the playoffs without Gil. Taps was weak, but just a stop gap. IMO, a guy like Adelman would have the Wizards over .500.

[closg00]

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go.

I agree with Fish, the make-up of the roster is flawed and players need to be dealt. However, the coaches have ALL made the same line-up mistake by keeping the starters at their current positions.
Moving AJ to SF or SG and starting Blatche at PF to play along-side with Brendan should be tried, but Flip appears to want to just beat his head against the wall with the same group of guys with the same rotation.

I just hope that AJ get's dealt, otherwise nothing is going to change much. AJ is the one who MUST go.

[fishercob]

CCJ, that's a red herring in my opinion. It pre-supposes that that's an option for Saunders. Look at the recent examples around the league where highly paid stars are sat down or sent home -- T-Mac, Brand, Tinsley, Marbury, Eddy Curry. The common thread is that all of those coaches had organizational support -- which is something you need when you're sitting a multi-millionaire down. Flip doesn't have that.

Ernie thinks we can with with Jamison and Butler and that's what he wants to see. How is Flip supposed to play them 20 minutes a night? Further, if he does, and the team succeed, Ernie is going to get pennies on the dollar for them in a trade. It's just not a realistic option with this team as currently set up.

[fishercob]

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go.

I agree with Fish, the make-up of the roster is flawed and players need to be dealt. However, the coaches have ALL made the same line-up mistake by keeping the starters at their current positions.
Moving AJ to SF or SG and starting Blatche at PF to play along-side with Brendan should be tried, but Flip appears to want to just be his head against the wall with the same group of guys.

I just hope that AJ get's dealt, otherwise nothing is going to change much. AJ is the one who MUST go.

The Jamison at SF thing is another red herring. He doesn't become a more willing defender when moved to another position. And look at the 3's in the East alone that he'd be torched by. It would be an unmitigated disaster if he was a full-time (or starting and heavy-playing 3). Our best SF is Mike Miller.

The solution is to trade Jamison, and Butler, and probably Gilbert. It sucks because I like those guys.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, that's a red herring in my opinion. It pre-supposes that that's an option for Saunders. Look at the recent examples around the league where highly paid stars are sat down or sent home -- T-Mac, Brand, Tinsley, Marbury, Eddy Curry. The common thread is that all of those coaches had organizational support -- which is something you need when you're sitting a multi-millionaire down. Flip doesn't have that.

Ernie thinks we can with with Jamison and Butler and that's what he wants to see. How is Flip supposed to play them 20 minutes a night? Further, if he does, and the team succeed, Ernie is going to get pennies on the dollar for them in a trade. It's just not a realistic option with this team as currently set up.

Flip just signed a deal. I'm thinking Ernie's on the way out soon, if things don't change. Flip just needs to tell EG what he wants to do with those guys. That's not happening. Flip wants to keep doing what hasn't worked for years IMO.

Speaking of Curry and Marbury, nobody's saying always play Jamison or Butler 20.

Why does everyone read the extremes? Jamison can play 30, but he needs to be playing a lot of SF and much less with Butler. Butler can also play 30, but needs to play some SG. The 10 less minutes for both players would be 20 minutes that coud be split developing Blatche and McGee.

I think the Wizards would be better with Jamison at SF and Oberto at PF.

I hate the Butler/Jamison combo.

Before this season even started, when the Wizards hired Flip my thoughts were the players are sayinga all the right things. They like Flip. He's attentive to detail. But I thought they'd hate it when he sat one of Butler or Jamison down or that one would be traded when it became apparent they couldn't defend, rebound, or score in the paint in crunch time enough for the Wizards to ever be better than mediocre.

That hasn't happened. Flip is not the coach I thought he'd be. He's shortened the bench and exacerbated the problem by sinking or swimming with his jump shooting, non-passing veterans.

[Ruzious]

Good posts, fish. Btw, re the Jamison defensive play - Gilbert did the exact same thing - only worse - on another play. Minny had a 1 on 2 fast break - with Gil and I think Foye defending. Foye was defending near the foul line, and Gil was closer to the hoop. The Minny player went around Foye, and instead of Gil coming to pick him up as Minny went to the hoop, Gil slided out of the lane - as if he was covering someone on the baseline. But there wasn't anyone near the baseline. That's when I changed over to the Caps game. Gil and Jamison are exactly the same on defense. They don't get it, and at this point in their careers, there's no reason to believe they ever will.

[dandridge 10]

This thread should be re-titled the amazingly sucky Phil Jackson thread. Or Red Auerbach, or Pat Riley, or Jerry Sloan. You could put them all at the helm of this team and they'd be what they are.

It's the players.

Read it again, this time say it out loud.

It's the players.

I only watched a little bit of the Minny game. What I did watch was with an old buddy with whom I learned a lot about the game. We did a decent amount of pausing, breaking down sets, mistakes, etc.

The Wizards defensive effort was ludicrously bad. There was on sequence where Butler got mismatched on a post player (I think Love, but maybe Al). Jamison was the closest defender. Inthat situation there are two options. First, and the far better option, is to double team HARD, and force the post guy to make a pass (and to rotate defensively). The second is to keep with your man, while stay playing good "help-side" principles (ball-you-man, etc). Jamison did neither. He just stood in no-man's land. Close enough to Butler so that he wasn't covering his own man, but nowhere near close to enough to be considered doubling the ball. That's not a scheme thing. I'd bet any amount of money that Saunders would vomit if he saw the tape of that sequence.

It's just Jamison's wiring -- he doesn't care about defense, but has convinced himself he has (sort of like the compulsive liar that believes his own BS). It's permeated the entire team as, not surprisingly, our two best scorers pay mere lip service to defense.

These types of threads existed in Boston before the KG and Allen deals a couple summers ago. Bill Simmons wrote multiple columns about how bad a coach Rivers was. Yet now he's a champion and may win another this year. It's the players -- who not only have the talent, but the desire and pride to win by any means necessary, even if it hurts, or isn't sexy or marketable. Eddie Jordan could have won a title with that team guys (gasp! But EJ's the coaching anti-christ, right??).

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go. Much as it pains me to say it, Gilbert probably needs to go too if we're ever going to compete for a title. Maybe he's young and talented enough that with the right guys around him he could change, but shidt, if he hasn't changed yet, then who are we kidding?

Ernie gave it a shot, but his formula didn't work. We need new leadership in the FO and new players if the culture is ever going to change here. I hate that I'm saying it, but I believe it now.

Welcome aboard Fish! Excellent post.

BTW, I am currently reading the book, "When the Game was Ours", about Bird and Magic. As I read the book, all I can think about is that we don't have a single player on the Wizard's roster that even remotely has the leadership skills that Bird and Magic possessed. Those players challenged their teams to be the best. They never took a night off. They always played both ends of the court and if they felt as though their teammates were not giving the type of effort that was needed on either end, they would let them know about it. Heck, Bird called his teammates "sissies" once.

I've watched too many games when we are losing to a crappy team like Minnesota, the Pacers, etc., and I see Gil, Caron, or Jamison on the bench just staring into space. Bird and Magic would never do that...they would be in their teammates face challenging to play harder and better. So would other leaders like Kobe, Wade, Paul, Garnett, etc. The problem with the Wizards is that they don't have that type of player on the team that will garner the respect of the other players. Even if Arenas and Jamison tried to be that person, they wouldn't be credible. For example, would anyone take Gilbert or Jamison seriously if they challenged them to play harder on the defensive end?? Or criticized their teammates for taking bad shots. I know I wouldn't. I thought Caron had the potential to be that type of leader, but he obviously is not. Caron seems content to just go about his business and play nice in the sandbox. The bottom line is this team has individual talent, but no true leader on the court that is going to inspire the team to play hard on both ends of the court every night. The coach can't be that person alone. Just like Riley needed Magic to be that person, and Bill Fitch and K.C. Jones needed Bird to be that person, Flip needs that person on this team and I'm convinced he is never going to find that person in Arenas, Jamison or Butler.

[Pradamaster]

This thread should be re-titled the amazingly sucky Phil Jackson thread. Or Red Auerbach, or Pat Riley, or Jerry Sloan. You could put them all at the helm of this team and they'd be what they are.

It's the players.

Read it again, this time say it out loud.

It's the players.

I only watched a little bit of the Minny game. What I did watch was with an old buddy with whom I learned a lot about the game. We did a decent amount of pausing, breaking down sets, mistakes, etc.

The Wizards defensive effort was ludicrously bad. There was on sequence where Butler got mismatched on a post player (I think Love, but maybe Al). Jamison was the closest defender. Inthat situation there are two options. First, and the far better option, is to double team HARD, and force the post guy to make a pass (and to rotate defensively). The second is to keep with your man, while stay playing good "help-side" principles (ball-you-man, etc). Jamison did neither. He just stood in no-man's land. Close enough to Butler so that he wasn't covering his own man, but nowhere near close to enough to be considered doubling the ball. That's not a scheme thing. I'd bet any amount of money that Saunders would vomit if he saw the tape of that sequence.

It's just Jamison's wiring -- he doesn't care about defense, but has convinced himself he has (sort of like the compulsive liar that believes his own BS). It's permeated the entire team as, not surprisingly, our two best scorers pay mere lip service to defense.

These types of threads existed in Boston before the KG and Allen deals a couple summers ago. Bill Simmons wrote multiple columns about how bad a coach Rivers was. Yet now he's a champion and may win another this year. It's the players -- who not only have the talent, but the desire and pride to win by any means necessary, even if it hurts, or isn't sexy or marketable. Eddie Jordan could have won a title with that team guys (gasp! But EJ's the coaching anti-christ, right??).

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go. Much as it pains me to say it, Gilbert probably needs to go too if we're ever going to compete for a title. Maybe he's young and talented enough that with the right guys around him he could change, but shidt, if he hasn't changed yet, then who are we kidding?

Ernie gave it a shot, but his formula didn't work. We need new leadership in the FO and new players if the culture is ever going to change here. I hate that I'm saying it, but I believe it now.

Well said, Fish. Agree with every word. This is a roster construction problem. We've been through two completely different types of coaches and it just isn't working.

Those bashing Flip have to understand the situation he's come into. He's a head coach for a management group who has mandated he win right away. A management group who stubbornly believed this mix was worthy of competing for a championship. A management group who sent a clear message that their core was good enough and just needed a couple pieces to fill in alongside it. If we want to get really specific, we can break that management group down into an owner desperately trying to win a title while he could in his life and a team president that has a) been fired from two jobs already, meaning he'll do what his boss tells him because it means he still has a job, and b) has exactly zero long rebuilding jobs completed on his resume and has seen his tenure as GM here go the same way as it did elsewhere -- a startingly quick turnaround, a stall at a level below championship contender and a rebuilding job begun two years too late. Under those circumstances, you can't really blame Flip for trusting his vets (which I really don't think he's doing - other than McGee, all the young guys have had their chances and have been channeled into pretty specific roles) and not doing wacky stuff like playing McGee at power forward and playing Jamison or Butler for less than half the game. There's not a single coach ever who would do that under these circumstances.

If Flip should be blamed for anything, it should be bigger-picture stuff. His admission that he gave the players freedom initially and is only now taking it away is pretty bad - when you're a new coach integrating a new system, it should be the other way around. I also think he put a bit too much on Gilbert right away - if he knew Gilbert was going to take time to get back in rhythm, I wish he did some more to make that easier for him, rather than having him worry about getting back in rhythm, learning a completely new offense and playing a completely different way all at once. But I really think those blaming his rotations as if some tinkering with the group we have is going to change things fundamentally can't see the forest for the trees.

[dandridge 10]

This thread should be re-titled the amazingly sucky Phil Jackson thread. Or Red Auerbach, or Pat Riley, or Jerry Sloan. You could put them all at the helm of this team and they'd be what they are.

It's the players.

Read it again, this time say it out loud.

It's the players.

I only watched a little bit of the Minny game. What I did watch was with an old buddy with whom I learned a lot about the game. We did a decent amount of pausing, breaking down sets, mistakes, etc.

The Wizards defensive effort was ludicrously bad. There was on sequence where Butler got mismatched on a post player (I think Love, but maybe Al). Jamison was the closest defender. Inthat situation there are two options. First, and the far better option, is to double team HARD, and force the post guy to make a pass (and to rotate defensively). The second is to keep with your man, while stay playing good "help-side" principles (ball-you-man, etc). Jamison did neither. He just stood in no-man's land. Close enough to Butler so that he wasn't covering his own man, but nowhere near close to enough to be considered doubling the ball. That's not a scheme thing. I'd bet any amount of money that Saunders would vomit if he saw the tape of that sequence.

It's just Jamison's wiring -- he doesn't care about defense, but has convinced himself he has (sort of like the compulsive liar that believes his own BS). It's permeated the entire team as, not surprisingly, our two best scorers pay mere lip service to defense.

These types of threads existed in Boston before the KG and Allen deals a couple summers ago. Bill Simmons wrote multiple columns about how bad a coach Rivers was. Yet now he's a champion and may win another this year. It's the players -- who not only have the talent, but the desire and pride to win by any means necessary, even if it hurts, or isn't sexy or marketable. Eddie Jordan could have won a title with that team guys (gasp! But EJ's the coaching anti-christ, right??).

Coach after coach after coach has had the same problems with this team. It's not going away by swapping out minutes from this guy to that. Dat, sadly, has been right all along. Jamison MUST go. Much as it pains me to say it, Gilbert probably needs to go too if we're ever going to compete for a title. Maybe he's young and talented enough that with the right guys around him he could change, but shidt, if he hasn't changed yet, then who are we kidding?

Ernie gave it a shot, but his formula didn't work. We need new leadership in the FO and new players if the culture is ever going to change here. I hate that I'm saying it, but I believe it now.

Well said, Fish. Agree with every word. This is a roster construction problem. We've been through two completely different types of coaches and it just isn't working.

Those bashing Flip have to understand the situation he's come into. He's a head coach for a management group who has mandated he win right away. A management group who stubbornly believed this mix was worthy of competing for a championship. A management group who sent a clear message that their core was good enough and just needed a couple pieces to fill in alongside it. If we want to get really specific, we can break that management group down into an owner desperately trying to win a title while he could in his life and a team president that has a) been fired from two jobs already, meaning he'll do what his boss tells him because it means he still has a job, and b) has exactly zero long rebuilding jobs completed on his resume and has seen his tenure as GM here go the same way as it did elsewhere -- a startingly quick turnaround, a stall at a level below championship contender and a rebuilding job begun two years too late. Under those circumstances, you can't really blame Flip for trusting his vets (which I really don't think he's doing - other than McGee, all the young guys have had their chances and have been channeled into pretty specific roles) and not doing wacky stuff like playing McGee at power forward and playing Jamison or Butler for less than half the game. There's not a single coach ever who would do that under these circumstances.

If Flip should be blamed for anything, it should be bigger-picture stuff. His admission that he gave the players freedom initially and is only now taking it away is pretty bad - when you're a new coach integrating a new system, it should be the other way around. I also think he put a bit too much on Gilbert right away - if he knew Gilbert was going to take time to get back in rhythm, I wish he did some more to make that easier for him, rather than having him worry about getting back in rhythm, learning a completely new offense and playing a completely different way all at once. But I really think those blaming his rotations as if some tinkering with the group we have is going to change things fundamentally can't see the forest for the trees.

[LyricalRico]

But I really think those blaming his rotations as if some tinkering with the group we have is going to change things fundamentally can't see the forest for the trees.

+2

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Pradamaster, I think Bullets Forever is probably the single best site on the Wiz.

What you do there is really great.

But honestly, folks told me that I was wacky saying Marquis Daniels was better than Jarvis Hayes. Funny that years later the Cs think he's an integral part of their championship hopes. Folks told me that drafting Millsap over Shelden and Pecherov was wacky. That saying Boozer is better than Kwame was wacky. They told me years ago that say DO NOT RESIGN AN INJURED PLAYER THAT ONLY PLAYS ONE SIDE OF THE BALL for 127Mil (turned out to be be 111Mil) was wacky. I said he'd be reinjured, most likely. I also said let him and Jamison walk. Sign somebody like Sessions on the real cheap and have lots of money to go for FAs. Said this years ago, btw.

Wacky stuff beat the Celtics--Kaman with DeAndre Jordan. Wacky stuff is Pau with Bynum and Odom.

I am fairly certain McGee with Blatche or Haywood would be more effective in the long run than having Jamison jack shots, not defend, play with a sense of entitlement. But that's not even the point. The point is ONE OF ANTAWN OR CARON at SF with EITHER OF ANDRAY, FABRICIO, OR JAVALE at PF wih Haywood would be a better way to go. (And trade the other when Miller returns, good riddance, at this point).

Not play Jamison or Butler but 20 minutes? If this coach had done that a few times the Wizards would probably have 2 or 3 more wins.

I've seen a lot of my wackys turn out to be not so wacky after all ....

Now what I am 100% sure you know a whole lot more than I do, Pradamaster, about is the inner workings of the the Wizards. What Pollin wanted

Politics aside, I would think wins should be the goal in the short run (and I don't trust EG for trades right now-but Caron was a goo one).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I say take a chain saw to the forest when tinkering with the rotations.

Cut down the trees with root rot. (Waive)

Transplant some others. (Trade)

Prune others still. (Radically adjust the minutes based on right now merit. Not egos or perceived trade value).

Might have to actually scorch some ground or defoliate just to get started on new growth.

All that is to say win right now by any means necessary and make any feasible deal ASAP.

[Pradamaster]

Pradamaster, I think Bullets Forever is probably the single best site on the Wiz.

What you do there is really great.

But honestly, folks told me that I was wacky saying Marquis Daniels was better than Jarvis Hayes. Funny that years later the Cs think he's an integral part of their championship hopes. Folks told me that drafting Millsap over Shelden and Pecherov was wacky. That saying Boozer is better than Kwame was wacky. They told me years ago that say DO NOT RESIGN AN INJURED PLAYER THAT ONLY PLAYS ONE SIDE OF THE BALL for 127Mil (turned out to be be 111Mil) was wacky. I said he'd be reinjured, most likely. I also said let him and Jamison walk. Sign somebody like Sessions on the real cheap and have lots of money to go for FAs. Said this years ago, btw.

Wacky stuff beat the Celtics--Kaman with DeAndre Jordan. Wacky stuff is Pau with Bynum and Odom.

I am fairly certain McGee with Blatche or Haywood would be more effective in the long run than having Jamison jack shots, not defend, play with a sense of entitlement. But that's not even the point. The point is ONE OF ANTAWN OR CARON at SF with EITHER OF ANDRAY, FABRICIO, OR JAVALE at PF wih Haywood would be a better way to go. (And trade the other when Miller returns, good riddance, at this point).

Not play Jamison or Butler but 20 minutes? If this coach had done that a few times the Wizards would probably have 2 or 3 more wins.

I've seen a lot of my wackys turn out to be not so wacky after all ....

Now what I am 100% sure you know a whole lot more than I do, Pradamaster, about is the inner workings of the the Wizards. What Pollin wanted

Politics aside, I would think wins should be the goal in the short run (and I don't trust EG for trades right now-but Caron was a goo one).

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that none of that really matters as much as the big-picture issues surrounding the team.

I have no idea if you're right or wrong because Flip hasn't really tried that stuff yet.

[WizarDynasty]

Jamison needs to be let go quickly so that Blatche can develop. The quicker this is done, the quicker the healing can begin. Plain and simple. The longer Ernie takes to trade Jamison to Cleveland, so that they can suffer from his non defense, the better off we will be. Jamison is not going to make Cleveland contenders with his poor defense. He won't even be a starter because they had drew gooden, who is better than jamison rebounding and defense and jumpshooting and they still sucked. So hurry up and trade jamison for cap relief...or just resign Ernie.

[closg00]

Well said, Fish. Agree with every word. This is a roster construction problem. We've been through two completely different types of coaches and it just isn't working.

Those bashing Flip have to understand the situation he's come into. He's a head coach for a management group who has mandated he win right away. A management group who stubbornly believed this mix was worthy of competing for a championship. A management group who sent a clear message that their core was good enough and just needed a couple pieces to fill in alongside it. If we want to get really specific, we can break that management group down into an owner desperately trying to win a title while he could in his life and a team president that has a) been fired from two jobs already, meaning he'll do what his boss tells him because it means he still has a job, and b) has exactly zero long rebuilding jobs completed on his resume and has seen his tenure as GM here go the same way as it did elsewhere -- a startingly quick turnaround, a stall at a level below championship contender and a rebuilding job begun two years too late. Under those circumstances, you can't really blame Flip for trusting his vets (which I really don't think he's doing - other than McGee, all the young guys have had their chances and have been channeled into pretty specific roles) and not doing wacky stuff like playing McGee at power forward and playing Jamison or Butler for less than half the game. There's not a single coach ever who would do that under these circumstances.

If Flip should be blamed for anything, it should be bigger-picture stuff. His admission that he gave the players freedom initially and is only now taking it away is pretty bad - when you're a new coach integrating a new system, it should be the other way around. I also think he put a bit too much on Gilbert right away - if he knew Gilbert was going to take time to get back in rhythm, I wish he did some more to make that easier for him, rather than having him worry about getting back in rhythm, learning a completely new offense and playing a completely different way all at once. But I really think those blaming his rotations as if some tinkering with the group we have is going to change things fundamentally can't see the forest for the trees.

You call it "bashing", I call it disagreeing, is that still allowed here?

Until a trade happens, the roster is what it is and Flip HAS to work-with it. If something isn't working (and it isn't) then it is incumbent upon the coach to try alternatives, and that means considering and trying-out line-up changes.

Perhaps changing the lineup may or may not change things fundamentally..... but we'll never know because AJ appears to be untouchable at the PF position?

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

/quote]

I agree with Fish, the make-up of the roster is flawed and players need to be dealt. However, the coaches have ALL made the same line-up mistake by keeping the starters at their current positions.
Moving AJ to SF or SG and starting Blatche at PF to play along-side with Brendan should be tried, but Flip appears to want to just be his head against the wall with the same group of guys.

I just hope that AJ get's dealt, otherwise nothing is going to change much. AJ is the one who MUST go.

The Jamison at SF thing is another red herring. He doesn't become a more willing defender when moved to another position. And look at the 3's in the East alone that he'd be torched by. It would be an unmitigated disaster if he was a full-time (or starting and heavy-playing 3). Our best SF is Mike Miller.

The solution is to trade Jamison, and Butler, and probably Gilbert. It sucks because I like those guys.[/quote]


You know, I'm starting to come around on Gil. Mostly, his defensive effort has been good, he's slowly making better penetration/dish decisions and his athleticism is creeping back. I'd be willing to give him more time with Flip to see what could be recreated.

Caron has looked a bit better lately as well.

It's AJ that HAS to go. We are better on BOTH sides of the ball w/o him. He still has value and would be great in the right situation... PHO comes to mind. But, we have to trade him now.

[Pradamaster]

Well said, Fish. Agree with every word. This is a roster construction problem. We've been through two completely different types of coaches and it just isn't working.

Those bashing Flip have to understand the situation he's come into. He's a head coach for a management group who has mandated he win right away. A management group who stubbornly believed this mix was worthy of competing for a championship. A management group who sent a clear message that their core was good enough and just needed a couple pieces to fill in alongside it. If we want to get really specific, we can break that management group down into an owner desperately trying to win a title while he could in his life and a team president that has a) been fired from two jobs already, meaning he'll do what his boss tells him because it means he still has a job, and b) has exactly zero long rebuilding jobs completed on his resume and has seen his tenure as GM here go the same way as it did elsewhere -- a startingly quick turnaround, a stall at a level below championship contender and a rebuilding job begun two years too late. Under those circumstances, you can't really blame Flip for trusting his vets (which I really don't think he's doing - other than McGee, all the young guys have had their chances and have been channeled into pretty specific roles) and not doing wacky stuff like playing McGee at power forward and playing Jamison or Butler for less than half the game. There's not a single coach ever who would do that under these circumstances.

If Flip should be blamed for anything, it should be bigger-picture stuff. His admission that he gave the players freedom initially and is only now taking it away is pretty bad - when you're a new coach integrating a new system, it should be the other way around. I also think he put a bit too much on Gilbert right away - if he knew Gilbert was going to take time to get back in rhythm, I wish he did some more to make that easier for him, rather than having him worry about getting back in rhythm, learning a completely new offense and playing a completely different way all at once. But I really think those blaming his rotations as if some tinkering with the group we have is going to change things fundamentally can't see the forest for the trees.

You call it "bashing", I call it disagreeing, is that still allowed here?

Until a trade happens, the roster is what it is and Flip HAS to work-with it. If something isn't working (and it isn't) then it is incumbent upon the coach to try alternatives, and that means considering and trying-out line-up changes.

Perhaps changing the lineup may or may not change things fundamentally..... but we'll never know because AJ appears to be untouchable at the PF position?

Semantics aside...

Flip's tried a ton of alternatives, closg. We've had a hundred zillion different starting lineups this year (or, more accurately, 11, which I believe is the most in the league). We've seen Butler sat for crunch time before (Dallas). We've seen young guys like Young and McGuire go in, out and back into the rotation. We've seen Flip take out his entire starting lineup at once in the middle of a game, a completely unprecedented move that I haven't seen a single NBA coach do ever. He's tried encouraging his team to run and he's tried telling his team to slow down. He's tried playing Gilbert Arenas exclusively on the ball and he's tried playing Arenas off it. He's tried playing Randy Foye all of the time, some of the time or never. He's tried Foye at the 1 and the 2. He's tried playing Andray Blatche starters minutes and backup's minutes. He's even tried playing DeShawn Stevens-n (no O) in the starting lineup. Literally everyone has had a chance (except McGee, who deserves one). He's even tried a big lineup with Jamison, Blatche and Haywood together this year.

If anything, I think Flip can be blamed for trying too many different things and not settling on something. The real issue seems to be that some of you don't agree with the changes Flip has made, which is fine, but that's different than saying he's not doing anything.

[LyricalRico]

The real issue seems to be that some of you don't agree with the changes Flip has made, which is fine, but that's different than saying he's not doing anything.

Great point.