Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[montestewart]

I must be a really crappy fan of the Washington football team. I dislike the team name, and I've viewed the management as incompetent for the most of the last couple decades.

but at least you didn't jump ship and become a Plowboyz fan

ob EG factoid
3rd worst winning % during tenure
45 win peak season

Does that % take into account all of the unfortunate injuries to key players over the years, something that no GM has any control over? Just saying.

Sometimes it's hard to leave the comedy room, but some posts are just begging for a "Are you serious?"

[milellie111]

but at least you didn't jump ship and become a Plowboyz fan

ob EG factoid
3rd worst winning % during tenure
45 win peak season

Does that % take into account all of the unfortunate injuries to key players over the years, something that no GM has any control over? Just saying.

Sometimes it's hard to leave the comedy room, but some posts are just begging for a "Are you serious?"

That's the reply you give when you don't know the answer to a question. Grunfeld knew Arenas would blow out his knee. Sure.

[sashae]

He may not have, but he did give him a max contract WHILE HAVING ONLY PLAYED 8 GAMES AFTER (SORTA) RECOVERING FROM DEBILITATING KNEE SURGERY. Cause nothing says "great investment" like a guaranteed contract for a guy WHO CANNOT PLAY.

I am kicking myself for posting in this thread, as it is an epic, epic troll.

[hands11]

Any, lot of people here say EG have been about an average GM, depending on time frame used to evaluate.

No, most on this board want EG gone - only 4% want to keep him. And most think he has been a TURRIBLE GM.

I think the consensus is pretty accurate.

Saying he has been average and wanting him not be extended are not mutually exclusive.

As for what percentage wanted him gone over a year ago when the poll was taken, not sure where that fits in.

The poll is not active. It hasn't been for a long time.

[montestewart]

I must be a really crappy fan of the Washington football team. I dislike the team name, and I've viewed the management as incompetent for the most of the last couple decades.

but at least you didn't jump ship and become a Plowboyz fan

ob EG factoid
3rd worst winning % during tenure
45 win peak season

Does that % take into account all of the unfortunate injuries to key players over the years, something that no GM has any control over? Just saying.

Sometimes it's hard to leave the comedy room, but some posts are just begging for a "Are you serious?"

That's the reply you give when you don't know the answer to a question. Grunfeld knew Arenas would blow out his knee. Sure.

I assume that response is akin to your use of "no one," not to be taken literally, since you can't possibly know that I don't know the answer to the question. The short answer is: No. True Wizards fans know EG's winning percentage, where it ranks, and what his peak season here was. Being a true fan, I know all that information already, and can easily see there's no handicapped player handicap.

I'm sure multiple sources will provide you with the information you seek, but I don't have to check with them. All teams have injuries. Well-run teams respond well to injuries. The Bulls lost an MVP and were still very competitive. The Blazers have lost Oden and Roy to career ending injuries and remained competitive. The year Arenas went down (playing only 8 games) the team actually improved its record. As usual, EG did nothing about front court depth, and when Haywood went down the following year, Oberto was the backup, and the team bottomed out. Arenas would have missed far fewer games as a Wizard if he was not resigned. Check the reactions to the Nene and Okafor trades if you want to see dumb ass non-GMs predicting injury issues.

EG has resigned injured players, signed or traded for injury risk players, failed to provide depth in case of injured players, and otherwise responded poorly to injuries. So the long answer to your question is: Yes, but that doesn't change the percentage. Why would it?

[dckingsfan]

Any, lot of people here say EG have been about an average GM, depending on time frame used to evaluate.

No, most on this board want EG gone - only 4% want to keep him. And most think he has been a TURRIBLE GM.

I think the consensus is pretty accurate.

Saying he has been average and wanting him not be extended are not mutually exclusive.

As for what percentage wanted him gone over a year ago when the poll was taken, not sure where that fits in.

The poll is not active. It hasn't been for a long time.

EG isn't average - not even close - no matter how you obfuscate it he is horrible. And no matter how you slice it an incredibly vast majority on this board wanted him gone and still do. These are facts that are undeniable unless you put on rose colored glasses, bend over, stick your head in the sand and yell - not so one million times - and even then.

[tontoz]

Nobody has been hurt more by injuries over the years than Portland. They lost Roy (All-Star) and Oden (1st pick) permanently to injuries but they are still an elite team. They had a bunch of other injuries over the years.

Houston lost Tmac and Yao to injuries yet still won 50 games with their replacements. Then they completely dismantled the team and rebuilt it in 3 years and are a top team again. They have had a losing season only once in the last 12 years.

Chicago lost Rose for 2 seasons and had winning records on both. What happened to us when Wall was out?

[montestewart]

He may not have, but he did give him a max contract WHILE HAVING ONLY PLAYED 8 GAMES AFTER (SORTA) RECOVERING FROM DEBILITATING KNEE SURGERY. Cause nothing says "great investment" like a guaranteed contract for a guy WHO CANNOT PLAY.

I am kicking myself for posting in this thread, as it is an epic, epic troll.

Surrender to the dark side.

[Kanyewest]

Nobody has been hurt more by injuries over the years than Portland. They lost Roy (All-Star) and Oden (1st pick) permanently to injuries but they are still an elite team. They had a bunch of other injuries over the years.

Houston lost Tmac and Yao to injuries yet still won 50 games with their replacements. Then they completely dismantled the team and rebuilt it in 3 years and are a top team again. They have had a losing season only once in the last 12 years.

Chicago lost Rose for 2 seasons and had winning records on both. What happened to us when Wall was out?

No team is perfect either. The Blazers could have taken Kevin Durant over Greg Oden. Even if Oden was healthy, there is no doubt that Durant would have been the better player. IMO that's much worse than taking Vesely over Leonard.

Also did the Rockets really win 50+ games without Ming and McGrady, I don't remember that at all.

[tontoz]

Nobody has been hurt more by injuries over the years than Portland. They lost Roy (All-Star) and Oden (1st pick) permanently to injuries but they are still an elite team. They had a bunch of other injuries over the years.

Houston lost Tmac and Yao to injuries yet still won 50 games with their replacements. Then they completely dismantled the team and rebuilt it in 3 years and are a top team again. They have had a losing season only once in the last 12 years.

Chicago lost Rose for 2 seasons and had winning records on both. What happened to us when Wall was out?

No team is perfect either. The Blazers could have taken Kevin Durant over Greg Oden. Even if Oden was healthy, there is no doubt that Durant would have been the better player. IMO that's much worse than taking Vesely over Leonard.

Also did the Rockets really win 50+ games without Ming and McGrady, I don't remember that at all.

Houston didn't win 50 when Yao and Tmac missed all 82 games but they did win 50 3 straight years with one or both missing significant time. They won 55 games with those two missing a combined 43 games, 53 missing a combined 52 games, and 52 missing a combined 45 games. They also had winning records when both guys missed the whole season until the blew it up in 2011.

Oden was the consensus number 1 pick. Hard to fault Portland for that. I don't remember anyone saying Durant was the clear choice over Oden.

[montestewart]

Nobody has been hurt more by injuries over the years than Portland. They lost Roy (All-Star) and Oden (1st pick) permanently to injuries but they are still an elite team. They had a bunch of other injuries over the years.

Houston lost Tmac and Yao to injuries yet still won 50 games with their replacements. Then they completely dismantled the team and rebuilt it in 3 years and are a top team again. They have had a losing season only once in the last 12 years.

Chicago lost Rose for 2 seasons and had winning records on both. What happened to us when Wall was out?

No team is perfect either. The Blazers could have taken Kevin Durant over Greg Oden. Even if Oden was healthy, there is no doubt that Durant would have been the better player. IMO that's much worse than taking Vesely over Leonard.

Also did the Rockets really win 50+ games without Ming and McGrady, I don't remember that at all.

I don't either, although they always seemed to have a hard time having the two of them on the court together for very long. I think they even missed parts of that 20+ game winning streak.

Re Oden over Durant, even hobbled by injuries those first two years, Oden looked like he could easily become the best center in the league, but for the injuries. Whether that would have been as valuable as Durant, probably not, especially with the league style seeming to devalue such big men, but we'll never really know for sure if he could have been as good. I know there was some talk about injury concerns before the draft, but I don't recall how significant it was (obviously, it was prescient). In hindsight, Durant is obviously the better pick.

With all the limitations of foresight, I think the majority on the board was against picking Vesely, and the reason so many mock drafts predicted the Wizards picking Vesely is not because he was roundly thought of as the best available at #6 but because EG telegraphed the move to everyone (so much so that some people even thought he was bluffing). Many people felt Oden was the best player in the draft that year, and to me, Oden at #1 is much more justifiable than Vesely at #6. Even after all the injuries and with all the limitations on his play, Oden's still probably a better player than Vesely.

[Kanyewest]

Nobody has been hurt more by injuries over the years than Portland. They lost Roy (All-Star) and Oden (1st pick) permanently to injuries but they are still an elite team. They had a bunch of other injuries over the years.

Houston lost Tmac and Yao to injuries yet still won 50 games with their replacements. Then they completely dismantled the team and rebuilt it in 3 years and are a top team again. They have had a losing season only once in the last 12 years.

Chicago lost Rose for 2 seasons and had winning records on both. What happened to us when Wall was out?

No team is perfect either. The Blazers could have taken Kevin Durant over Greg Oden. Even if Oden was healthy, there is no doubt that Durant would have been the better player. IMO that's much worse than taking Vesely over Leonard.

Also did the Rockets really win 50+ games without Ming and McGrady, I don't remember that at all.

Houston didn't win 50 when Yao and Tmac missed all 82 games but they did win 50 3 straight years with one or both missing significant time. They won 55 games with those two missing a combined 43 games, 53 missing a combined 52 games, and 52 missing a combined 45 games. They also had winning records when both guys missed the whole season until the blew it up in 2011.

Oden was the consensus number 1 pick. Hard to fault Portland for that. I don't remember anyone saying Durant was the clear choice over Oden.

I remember the debate. Bill Simmons had it.

Bill Simmons selects: Kevin Durant, SF, Texas
If I'm Portland's GM, I just spent the last five weeks wondering about Greg Oden. What's his ceiling? Can he be better than Patrick Ewing? Alonzo Mourning? Can he become as dominant as Tim Duncan? Should I be worried about his surgically repaired wrist, or the fact that he might suffer back problems some day because his legs are different sizes? What about the fact that he likes basketball, but doesn't love it? The thing is, all these franchise centers are basically the same -- it just comes down to their inherent will to dominate a game. Hakeem had that will, Duncan has it, Moses had it, Shaq had it in 2000 and 2001 ... for whatever reason, Ewing didn't have it, and neither did Mourning or Robinson. Can you see Oden stepping onto a basketball court and saying, "There's no way we're losing this f-ing game. I'm destroying the other team tonight." For some reason, I can't.


Well, Durant plays that way every game. He's a cold-blooded killer. I hate pre-draft workouts, but didn't you find it interesting that Oden was nervous, awkward and apologetic during his workout in Portland, but a confident Durant strolled in there two days later and blew everyone away? You know what's funny about that? I knew that was going to happen. One guy plays basketball because he was created to play basketball; the other plays because he was bigger than everyone else and it seemed like the logical thing to do. If there was a pickup game and Oden was on one side, Durant was on the other, and your life depended on the game, you'd pick Durant. You would.


So if Portland takes Oden, it will happen because of conventional NBA logic (you always take the franchise center), because their fans are pushing for him (obviously, nobody watches college basketball in Portland) and because he's a personable, gregarious, likable big guy for a city that's desperately needed a personable, gregarious, likable big guy ever since Bill Walton ditched Portland for San Diego. I'm not saying those reasons are wrong. In fact, I understand them completely. But if I'm Portland's GM, I'm taking the guy with a legitimate chance to go down with Bird, Magic, MJ, Baylor, Oscar, West, Duncan, Pettit, Havlicek and every other great non-center who ever played in the National Basketball Association. I'm taking Kevin Durant.

Nobody has been hurt more by injuries over the years than Portland. They lost Roy (All-Star) and Oden (1st pick) permanently to injuries but they are still an elite team. They had a bunch of other injuries over the years.

Houston lost Tmac and Yao to injuries yet still won 50 games with their replacements. Then they completely dismantled the team and rebuilt it in 3 years and are a top team again. They have had a losing season only once in the last 12 years.

Chicago lost Rose for 2 seasons and had winning records on both. What happened to us when Wall was out?

No team is perfect either. The Blazers could have taken Kevin Durant over Greg Oden. Even if Oden was healthy, there is no doubt that Durant would have been the better player. IMO that's much worse than taking Vesely over Leonard.

Also did the Rockets really win 50+ games without Ming and McGrady, I don't remember that at all.

I don't either, although they always seemed to have a hard time having the two of them on the court together for very long. I think they even missed parts of that 20+ game winning streak.

Re Oden over Durant, even hobbled by injuries those first two years, Oden looked like he could easily become the best center in the league, but for the injuries. Whether that would have been as valuable as Durant, probably not, especially with the league style seeming to devalue such big men, but we'll never really know for sure if he could have been as good. I know there was some talk about injury concerns before the draft, but I don't recall how significant it was (obviously, it was prescient). In hindsight, Durant is obviously the better pick.

With all the limitations of foresight, I think the majority on the board was against picking Vesely, and the reason so many mock drafts predicted the Wizards picking Vesely is not because he was roundly thought of as the best available at #6 but because EG telegraphed the move to everyone (so much so that some people even thought he was bluffing). Many people felt Oden was the best player in the draft that year, and to me, Oden at #1 is much more justifiable than Vesely at #6. Even after all the injuries and with all the limitations on his play, Oden's still probably a better player than Vesely.

I agree that Oden is better than Vesely. I just think the gap between Durant and Oden is much larger than between Vesely and whatever player in the 2011 draft that the Wizards could have selected. BTW, I wonder if Oden with 1 arm and 1 leg is better than Vesely.

[montestewart]

I agree that Oden is better than Vesely. I just think the gap between Durant and Oden is much larger than between Vesely and whatever player in the 2011 draft that the Wizards could have selected. BTW, I wonder if Oden with 1 arm and 1 leg is better than Vesely.

1 on 1, I imagine most people would take Vesely, but the Heat just signed Oden. After all he's been through, he's still a better center than Vesely is a basketball player.

Oden injuries make it impossible to really measure the gap. He missed his entire first year due to injuries, and played 82 games total his 2nd and 3rd year. That's an awful lot of injury. Oden's 2nd and 3rd year numbers: pts/36: 15.3, rb/36: 11.9, BS/36: 2.3. Oden's and Durant's 2nd and 3rd years compared: PER: 19.5 vs. 23.6, WS/48: .180 vs. .188, TS%: .613 vs. .594. Definitely a gap, but it kind of looks to me like the injuries are the gap. Maybe Simmons was right about all those red flags, but they are focused more on his desire, which he never really got a chance to prove one way or the other. Oden was the consensus #1, and the clear evidence that it was the wrong pick is that injuries ended his career, while Durant became a superstar.

PS: I'm not defending from bias, as I personally preferred Durant, but I could see a very good case for choosing Oden. I never saw a good case for choosing Vesely.

[sashae]

I agree that Oden is better than Vesely. I just think the gap between Durant and Oden is much larger than between Vesely and whatever player in the 2011 draft that the Wizards could have selected. BTW, I wonder if Oden with 1 arm and 1 leg is better than Vesely.

In 3 years (~2000 minutes) of play, Greg Oden accumulated a total of 7.3 WS.

In 4 years (~2300 minutes) of play, Jan Vesely accumulated a total of 3.5 WS.

In other words, Greg Oden's crippled, hobbling, Methuselah-looking treebeard ass is twice the player that Jan "Really? REALLY?" Vesely is. With one arm and one leg.

[hands11]

I agree that Oden is better than Vesely. I just think the gap between Durant and Oden is much larger than between Vesely and whatever player in the 2011 draft that the Wizards could have selected. BTW, I wonder if Oden with 1 arm and 1 leg is better than Vesely.

1 on 1, I imagine most people would take Vesely, but the Heat just signed Oden. After all he's been through, he's still a better center than Vesely is a basketball player.

Oden injuries make it impossible to really measure the gap. He missed his entire first year due to injuries, and played 82 games total his 2nd and 3rd year. That's an awful lot of injury. Oden's 2nd and 3rd year numbers: pts/36: 15.3, rb/36: 11.9, BS/36: 2.3. Oden's and Durant's 2nd and 3rd years compared: PER: 19.5 vs. 23.6, WS/48: .180 vs. .188, TS%: .613 vs. .594. Definitely a gap, but it kind of looks to me like the injuries are the gap. Maybe Simmons was right about all those red flags, but they are focused more on his desire, which he never really got a chance to prove one way or the other. Oden was the consensus #1, and the clear evidence that it was the wrong pick is that injuries ended his career, while Durant became a superstar.

PS: I'm not defending from bias, as I personally preferred Durant, but I could see a very good case for choosing Oden. I never saw a good case for choosing Vesely.

This isn't a comparison yet since Ves has never been a FA.

And with all the talk of WTF with Randy regarding Otto and Kevin, lets not forget that he was in control of bringing Ves along as well. Ves is not cut from the same mold as Oden. Oden was strong power player, US born, etc. But I'm not counting Ves out just yet. I'm giving it two more years to see what opportunity, the right team, and good coaching can do with him. At a min he is a 6-11, young good utility transition player who can steal the ball and play good PnR defense.

He is getting minutes down the stretch in Denver. I hope he stays there with Lawson. I also think the Denver area is a good fit for him. And he and Faried run the floor well together. I like them as a combo and Faried even looks to set him up because Faried is that kind of a player.

If you are a team that gets out and run and you have and office design to feed cutter with player that can deliver the pass, I would defiantly have no problem with Ves on my roster. As a UFA, some team is going to want him. I suspect several.

Denver messed up taking McGee for that much for that long but Ves could come cheap. Going to be interesting to see who he sign with and for how much. Probably a small deal like one year with option I suspect.

[montestewart]

^
And while Vesely makes bad plays (a whole lot of them) he generally steers clear of Shaqtin the fool plays.

[Kanyewest]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I meant to say that it would only be close between Oden and Vesely if Oden literally had 1 leg and 1 arm. Oden is a much better prospect and player than Vesely.

[milellie111]

Doubt if ANY team would fire it's GM after making the playoffs.

[ptptpt]

Doubt if ANY team would fire it's GM after making the playoffs.

True.

Interesting thing about Ernie though: He got suspended from Knicks management during the 98-99 lockout season because the team started off slow. That team ended up making the Finals that year. They tried to give him his job back but he had already moved on by then to the Milwaukee Bucks.

[hands11]

Otto didn't look like any bust tonight.

Thats not going to hurt EGs case.

And without Noel playing this year, there isn't that hanging over his head.

Going to be interesting. Specially if they play well when Nene returns.

Gortat looked awesome tonight.