Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:06 pm
Wait until draft night when a young and improving PHX team, uses our lottery pick for the Gortat rental. The blood will boil again anew here.
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leswizards wrote:hands11 wrote:No Clogs. Its isn't and I explained why. Now if you want to ignore the facts and use your over simplified single data point, well then go ahead. But it hardly paints an accurate picture because it ignores all the most relevant information.
Considering that Charlotte has had multiple GMs with the most recent GM only taking over in the last year or so, while EG has been GM for around a decade or, you don't paint an entirely accurate picture either.
hands11 wrote:We were comparing franchises so I posted the franchise information.
TGW wrote:Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.
You would have taken Wall. Check.
You would have taken Beal. Check.
You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.
That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.
Dark Faze wrote:
I don't really care about the Ves pick. Major goof but Kawhi was a boring prospect at the time and we didn't want to get a pure shooter with the 6th overall.
My biggest issue is that Ernie didn't seem to have any plan concerning anything beyond the year in front of him. He constantly drafts for that years situation and that's it. He doesn't acknowledge the potential of certain players to leave the roster in coming years. Passes on Bledsoe and Vasquez in 2010 with the mindset that he's stocked with PG's already, then the very next year uses a 2nd on Shelvin Mack when Parsons was on the board. Drafting a defensive wing specialist over Faried and Tobias Harris was terrible.
The Booker pick was odd as well for a foundation piece. The Satoransky pick was a literal waste. Rice Jr over Jeff Withey was super odd as well given our wing depth.
And for years all we heard was " we need guys to run with John Wall" which is easily the dumbest thing I can possibly imagine hearing.
leswizards wrote:hands11 wrote:They still think Gortat for a mid first was to much. I disagree. Gortat has been amazingly valuable.
I have said it before, and I will say it again. There were 2 possibilities.
The first possibility is that the Wizards would not have made the playoffs without the Gortat trade. In that case, the Wizards traded what would have been a mid lottery pick in an extremely deep draft for a 1 year rental of a player who has helped them get what is currently the 7th seed in the playoffs. In that scenario, I can understand why some people might think the trade is worth it, as a playoff season is more enjoyable than a non playoff season, but to me, the cost is not worth it. I would rather have the long term asset.
The second possibility is the Wizards would have made the playoffs regardless of whether they traded for Gortat or not. In that case, the trade clearly was not worth it, as the Gortat trade really has added almost no value.
All things considered, I would have rather kept the first.
closg00 wrote:Wait until draft night when a young and improving PHX team, uses our lottery pick for the Gortat rental. The blood will boil again anew here.
TGW wrote:Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.
You would have taken Wall. Check.
You would have taken Beal. Check.
You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.
That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.
Dark Faze wrote:TGW wrote:Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.
You would have taken Wall. Check.
You would have taken Beal. Check.
You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.
That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.
I don't really care about the Ves pick. Major goof but Kawhi was a boring prospect at the time and we didn't want to get a pure shooter with the 6th overall.
My biggest issue is that Ernie didn't seem to have any plan concerning anything beyond the year in front of him. He constantly drafts for that years situation and that's it. He doesn't acknowledge the potential of certain players to leave the roster in coming years. Passes on Bledsoe and Vasquez in 2010 with the mindset that he's stocked with PG's already, then the very next year uses a 2nd on Shelvin Mack when Parsons was on the board. Drafting a defensive wing specialist over Faried and Tobias Harris was terrible.
The Booker pick was odd as well for a foundation piece. The Satoransky pick was a literal waste. Rice Jr over Jeff Withey was super odd as well given our wing depth.
And for years all we heard was " we need guys to run with John Wall" which is easily the dumbest thing I can possibly imagine hearing.
DCZards wrote:leswizards wrote:hands11 wrote:They still think Gortat for a mid first was to much. I disagree. Gortat has been amazingly valuable.
I have said it before, and I will say it again. There were 2 possibilities.
The first possibility is that the Wizards would not have made the playoffs without the Gortat trade. In that case, the Wizards traded what would have been a mid lottery pick in an extremely deep draft for a 1 year rental of a player who has helped them get what is currently the 7th seed in the playoffs. In that scenario, I can understand why some people might think the trade is worth it, as a playoff season is more enjoyable than a non playoff season, but to me, the cost is not worth it. I would rather have the long term asset.
The second possibility is the Wizards would have made the playoffs regardless of whether they traded for Gortat or not. In that case, the trade clearly was not worth it, as the Gortat trade really has added almost no value.
All things considered, I would have rather kept the first.
I agree that the benefit of trading for Gortat is short term---at least at this point. That could change, however, if the Zards can resign Marcin at the right price. The trade would then have a long-term benefit. (I expect it will be easier to resign Gortat now that he's already a Zard than it would have been to sign him if he had never been on the roster.)
If they resign Gortat, the Zards will have a proven starter at a key position, someone who has shown that he fits in well with the current roster.
I think making the playoffs was important for the franchise and the development of its youngins, and I'm not convinced that a mid- to late-lottery draft pick in this year's draft would have moved the needle a whole lot as far as the Zards being a championship contender.
montestewart wrote:Youheardme90 wrote:montestewart wrote:Youheardme90 just arrived here after a long trip. All this EG business is brand new.
Well, technically I`ve been reading these boards for 8 years. I had another account but I never posted as much with it, and eventually I forgot the name
So, I just made a new one.
There was this guy, Youheardme80. Any relation?
leswizards wrote:hands11 wrote:We were comparing franchises so I posted the franchise information.
And, an important part of the franchise information (IMO), is that Charlotte has replaced their GM, and finally has what appears to be a competent GM, who has Charlotte in the playoff within 1 season of taking over, while the Wizards have had EG for around a decade.
Dark Faze wrote:TGW wrote:Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.
You would have taken Wall. Check.
You would have taken Beal. Check.
You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.
That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.
I don't really care about the Ves pick. Major goof but Kawhi was a boring prospect at the time and we didn't want to get a pure shooter with the 6th overall.
My biggest issue is that Ernie didn't seem to have any plan concerning anything beyond the year in front of him. He constantly drafts for that years situation and that's it. He doesn't acknowledge the potential of certain players to leave the roster in coming years. Passes on Bledsoe and Vasquez in 2010 with the mindset that he's stocked with PG's already, then the very next year uses a 2nd on Shelvin Mack when Parsons was on the board. Drafting a defensive wing specialist over Faried and Tobias Harris was terrible.
The Booker pick was odd as well for a foundation piece. The Satoransky pick was a literal waste. Rice Jr over Jeff Withey was super odd as well given our wing depth.
And for years all we heard was " we need guys to run with John Wall" which is easily the dumbest thing I can possibly imagine hearing.
hands11 wrote:The claim was the CHA rebuild was faster than the Wizards. That isn't true. That was the topic. Them getting a new GM doesn't change that.
So the Cats took less time to return to the playoffs then the Wizards.
My fall-back position now is hoping for the Wizards to be decisively swept in the 1st. round, that is my only hope for change in the FO and coaching.
hands11 wrote:Nivek wrote:DCZards wrote:It's fascinating to read how some posters think they would have made ALL of the right draft and personnel decisions if they had only been GM instead of EG.
In general I agree, BUT in this case there have been folks saying at the time that Grunfeld was making mistakes. Many identified at the time moves that would have been preferable. The only "looking back" required is simply to remind ourselves what folks said at the time.
And those same people said they would miss the playoff this year and that trades that worked .. wouldn't and the sky was falling. There was no path forward. Well we talk about those paths forward all the time here.
hands11 wrote:Lots here hated TA and said he was worst ever and way over paid.
hands11 wrote:They still think Gortat for a mid first was to much. I disagree. Gortat has been amazingly valuable.
hands11 wrote:...My position is... Would I have done differently.. Yes.. Many things.
Do I think they did it things inefficiently.. yes
Would they have better players with my suggested draft picks.. yes