Woj: Nets trade Bogdanovic to Wizards

[leswizards]

The Wizards are 2-3 since the trade. Bogdanovic had 2 very good games, 1 average game, and 2 very bad games. Otto Porter's FG attempts are down. Jason Smith and Kelly Oubre are losing playing time when the Wizards really needed a player to reduce Sato and Burke's playing time. The early returns on this trade are not good.

[Mojo Amok]

The Wizards are 2-3 since the trade. Bogdanovic had 2 very good games, 1 average game, and 2 very bad games. Otto Porter's FG attempts are down. Jason Smith and Kelly Oubre are losing playing time when the Wizards really needed a player to reduce Sato and Burke's playing time. The early returns on this trade are not good.

I wouldn't really put the recent struggles on the trade. Porter, Morris, Gortat and Wall have all been shooting very poorly with Wall and Morris doing so on high volume. They're collectively shooting .40% from the field (97 of 242) and .312% on 3-pointers (15 of 48).

I'm sure there's plenty of other things we could point to as well, but only Beal scoring with efficiency that's at least equal to his season averages amongst starters would have a lot more to do with the struggles than bench disruptions when the bench already sucked to begin with. Regardless of anything else, they're not going to win much under these circumstances.

[J-Ves]

The Wizards are 2-3 since the trade. Bogdanovic had 2 very good games, 1 average game, and 2 very bad games. Otto Porter's FG attempts are down. Jason Smith and Kelly Oubre are losing playing time when the Wizards really needed a player to reduce Sato and Burke's playing time. The early returns on this trade are not good.

Oubre is a brick layer, him losing time is a good thing if the goal is to win games now. Jennings is taking the backup PG duties so Burke is losing time as well.

[Meliorus]

The Wizards are 2-3 since the trade. Bogdanovic had 2 very good games, 1 average game, and 2 very bad games. Otto Porter's FG attempts are down. Jason Smith and Kelly Oubre are losing playing time when the Wizards really needed a player to reduce Sato and Burke's playing time. The early returns on this trade are not good.

Oubre is a brick layer, him losing time is a good thing if the goal is to win games now. Jennings is taking the backup PG duties so Burke is losing time as well.

Problem with Bogdonavic is Brooks keeps playing him in crunch-time over Porter for a few more minutes than necessary. Also he's taking some of Oubre's minutes. It's counterproductive because the Wall-Beal-Otto-Oubre-Gortat lineup is one of our best. His defense makes him a liability when they target him on switches. Powell abused him, Toronto purposely got the DeRozan switch on that dagger 3. Did you see the distance between Bojan and DeMar??

[payitforward]

I've always disliked the American League -- can't stand the "designated hitter" rule. Grew up a Cubs fan, & I'm a NL fan down the line.

In basketball, when a guy is in the game you get everything he does -- all of it. There are no "designated scorers" -- not among the starters & not on the bench. Everybody does everything. It's also not possible to "hide" someone on defense. He's not hidden; he's right there.

Bogdanovic is a good shooter; he's bad at pretty much everything else. The idea that you could think having him on the floor for 20 minutes is more effective than having MK-G on the floor for 20 minutes -- "overall" meaning in the effect of his play on your chance to win the game, & "20 minutes" meaning any 20 minutes in the game whatsoever -- is pretty far out Zards, pretty far from defensible. & that is no matter who is teammates are. Nor is this much surprise, given MK-G having been the #2 pick in the draft. He's not much of a scorer. Every 40 minutes Bogdnovic scores @4.5 more points, that's more true. OTOH, MK-G gets literally twice as many rebounds, disrupts the opponent's offense, etc. etc. etc.

Not that I should be surprised by your response, good buddy, should I? Every trade the Wizards make is a good one in your book!

I'd love to see BojBog turn into a good player. But, he's going to be the player he was over almost 6000 minutes instead. Yup, he shot well last night. He also shot poorly vs. Philly & Utah. But I'm not worried about his shooting. I'm looking at his whole game, which is well below average for an NBA 3. Sorry!

PIF, in the NBA, like many sports, there are good all-around players and then there are important role players. Bojan is a role player for the Zards. That's why I asked this simple question, which you failed to answer: Who would you rather have coming off the bench to provide an offensive spark, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist or Bogdanovic?

Sorry for the delay -- I'm out of the country & what with one thing and another... and another... and another...

I meant to be answering your question by telling my AL story. In the simplest sense, basketball just isn't baseball. When I put in a pinch hitter, I am trying to get "an offensive spark." When I substitute a player in a basketball game, I get absolutely everything the guy does. I.e. I don't get "an offensive spark" -- I get some variation around his average shooting %s, his average rebounding numbers, his average steals & turnovers, etc. You understand what I mean.

In retrospect -- "wow Joe Blow came in and really gave us an offensive spark" -- it can look different on some occasions. But that is only in retrospect.

If I have the opportunity to substitute MK-G in any game situation (except lets say less than one possession left & we have the ball) I'm going to put him in over Bogdanovic every single time without hesitation.

Why? Because (using averages here, of course) he will help my team much much more than Bojan. Lets say we are talking about 48 minutes (just because I have those numbers handy & don't have to do math in my head).

In that time, Bojan will score 11 more points than MK-G. To do that, he'll use 8 more possessions than MK-G. In other words, with MK-G in the game instead of Bojan the other players have to be responsible for those 8 extra possessions, right? Ok, lets assume the rest of the team has approximately a .50 TS%. That means they get 8 points on those possessions. So, to this point Bojan looks like the better choice. Fair enough.

But in that same time, MK-G (on average) will have gotten 2.8 more offensive rebounds than Bojan. That give us 2.8 more possessions, and using that same .50 TS%, we've got 2.8 more points. Bojan is still looking like the better choice -- but it's getting pretty close.

Actually it's not close at all, because in those minutes Bojan has also turned the ball over 1.7 times more often than MK-G, and he's stolen the ball .7 fewer times. That's another 2.4 possessions to our team -- presumably another 2.4 points. Now MK-G is ahead in effectiveness, but there's more.

In those minutes, MK-G has also gotten us 3.5 more defensive rebounds than Bojan. Probably our team gets 50-60% of those anyway, but that's still another 1.5 possessions -- i.e. another 1.5 points.

Plus, MK-G has blocked 1.5 shots by our opponent that Bojan hasn't gotten to. Doesn't add points to our side, but likely takes something away from the other team's point total, which amounts to the same thing.

It's pretty decisive, the difference. Bojan closes it slightly by getting a slightly higher assist # & a slightly lower foul # than MK-G, but still there's really no comparison between the productiveness of these players. And framing it as "an offensive spark" off the bench doesn't change that. If you get an offensive spark b/c Bojan shoots better than MK-G, but your team has fewer chances to score, more turnovers, fewer steals, fewer defensive rebounds, fewer offensive rebounds, gives up more points, & so forth -- then you're more likely to lose.

Again, if you are deciding between two pinch hitters, pick the guy w/ the higher batting average. If you are deciding who's going to get 20 minutes off the bench tonight at the 3, go with the guy who is overall better considering all facets of the game.

There's no getting around it. Unlike the pinch hitter, that substitute 3 is going to have to play all facets of the game.

In short, your first sentence -- "in the NBA, like many sports, there are good all-around players and then there are important role players" -- is specifically & precisely wrong. Or, rather, yes there aren't enough good all-around players to fill every minute. For that reason, and that reason only, there are what you call "role players" -- which just means guys who are good at some stuff but not good at most stuff.

Of course you can be *so good* at something that no matter how bad you are at the other stuff you are still a monster. Hey, if Bojan scored 27 points on 12 shots & 4FTAs every night, as he did the other night, he'd be better than... just about anybody! We'd never lose again! But of course, he doesn't do that; he isn't that good. In fact, his scoring is above average for a 3, but it's not elite.

Bojan is a role player for the Zards. It's unfair to compare him to MK-G who, while a below average scorer, is way way way above average in everything else & a much better player.

[payitforward]

It's a small sample size, but Bogs looks like he could be a 6th Man of the Year Candidate.

I would go as far as to say he seems more in the mold of a guy who comes off the bench for championship teams and makes key 3-pointers. He seems more that then what I was expecting, which was a gunner who was putting up numbers on a bad team. I'm pleasantly surprised that Bogs actually scores his points within the offense and doesn't seem to force much.

I think there is probably a misconception that every player in the rotation has to be a defensive stallworth or even be above average defensively in order to compete. Bogs getting us 15ppg off the bench is basically catering to what our main weakness was, bench scoring. If he's doing that in a highly efficient manner I think that's going to be a big positive in our favor.

It's a small sample, but Bogs is shooting 100% from the FT line. I would go so far as to say that he looks like the greatest free throw shooter in the history of the game.

I think there is probably a misconception that if you are a bad defender the other team scores more points. Why would anyone think that?

As well, it's probably a misconception that sample size matters. Bogs has played 120 minutes for us. I mean... John Wall effect (even from the bench). Pay no attention to the other 5800 minutes of Bogs' career; they aren't going to tell us what we're likely to get from him.

In fact, why even look at all 120 minutes? Why not just look at the game he had the other night -- that's the true Bojan Bogdanovic! He scored 27 points on 12 shots and 4 FTAs. We got us a hall of fame player, guys!

[payitforward]

Just trying to help any way I can, guys!

Bogdanovic had a terrific game last night, b/c he had a great game shooting. If he can score 27 points on 12 shots & 3 FTAs every night, it's likely we never lose another game! Go BojBog!!

Also, if we had Randy Foye, & he scored 29 points every quarter (as he did once), we never lose again.

You might want to look at the rest of his 25-minute line to see where the problems w/ Bogdanovic are on nights when he doesn't shoot lights out. But... last night he did.

He, Smith & Gortat made it basically impossible to lose the game. Esp. Smith & Gortat -- in 28 combined minutes, those two guys went 10-12 and grabbed 13 rebounds! Great work by all 3 of them.

Lol you mean like 15 and 16 point game with a 50% shooting night 2 games in a row before this one, with a good defensive showing, or in the flow offense and ball distribution, but I guess those are just average numbers right? He really is a very bad player as you said. Just aweful. He should be sent to the D league! right? lmao

Not the D League, Bob -- the Hall of Fame. Really, he is 100% on FTs. You know anyone like that? He's shooting 50% on threes -- obviously better than Porter, which is great since we can't afford to max them both -- so max Bogdanovic, the better player. Those numbers from his previous 5880 minutes are fake news, Bob -- isn't it obvious?

[payitforward]

Just so I'm clear: I hope Bojan Bogdanovic knocks it out of the park for us. I hope he is a tremendous player for us. Plus, I wish him well in all facets of his life.

But... haven't we gone through stuff like this before? Guys play well for a few games or a few weeks & all of a sudden we have roosters crowing & puffing their feathers up. Then, the player returns to his mean (as is to be expected), & all those roosters stop strutting around.

Still -- it'd be great if Bojan Bogdanovic changes his game, if he's all that & more. I'm all for it.

[payitforward]

It's like I've been saying -- Bogdanovic to the HoF!!

27 points on 12 shots -- again!

[bobbeaver]

Just trying to help any way I can, guys!

Bogdanovic had a terrific game last night, b/c he had a great game shooting. If he can score 27 points on 12 shots & 3 FTAs every night, it's likely we never lose another game! Go BojBog!!

Also, if we had Randy Foye, & he scored 29 points every quarter (as he did once), we never lose again.

You might want to look at the rest of his 25-minute line to see where the problems w/ Bogdanovic are on nights when he doesn't shoot lights out. But... last night he did.

He, Smith & Gortat made it basically impossible to lose the game. Esp. Smith & Gortat -- in 28 combined minutes, those two guys went 10-12 and grabbed 13 rebounds! Great work by all 3 of them.

Lol you mean like 15 and 16 point game with a 50% shooting night 2 games in a row before this one, with a good defensive showing, or in the flow offense and ball distribution, but I guess those are just average numbers right? He really is a very bad player as you said. Just aweful. He should be sent to the D league! right? lmao

Not the D League, Bob -- the Hall of Fame. Really, he is 100% on FTs. You know anyone like that? He's shooting 50% on threes -- obviously better than Porter, which is great since we can't afford to max them both -- so max Bogdanovic, the better player. Those numbers from his previous 5880 minutes are fake news, Bob -- isn't it obvious?

Well pretty much thats true lol fake news You finally hit the nail on the head there pay remeber Wiz are a good team Nets baaaaddd team. Players play better (if good) on an good team. Makes sense no? like GSW ball movement make s easy shots and efficiency goes up, ask KD lol. That much so for Bogie. Well thing is you agree on all my points since you didnt actually say anything to contradict them lol. So glad we agree

[bobbeaver]

besides he did this kind of things for years, especially Olympics. TBH he is finally used right in the NBA, with a great PG and all the pressure is not on him to score. Thats why he is producing much more easily. He is a lights out shooter and has learned to attack the rim very well. Defense was the questionable part. But i did tell you he was clutch did i not?

[tontoz]

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Bojan is happy about the trade.

[Physhi]

If he keeps shooting like this he can take all the shots he wants.

[pepe1991]

I've always disliked the American League -- can't stand the "designated hitter" rule. Grew up a Cubs fan, & I'm a NL fan down the line.

In basketball, when a guy is in the game you get everything he does -- all of it. There are no "designated scorers" -- not among the starters & not on the bench. Everybody does everything. It's also not possible to "hide" someone on defense. He's not hidden; he's right there.

Bogdanovic is a good shooter; he's bad at pretty much everything else. The idea that you could think having him on the floor for 20 minutes is more effective than having MK-G on the floor for 20 minutes -- "overall" meaning in the effect of his play on your chance to win the game, & "20 minutes" meaning any 20 minutes in the game whatsoever -- is pretty far out Zards, pretty far from defensible. & that is no matter who is teammates are. Nor is this much surprise, given MK-G having been the #2 pick in the draft. He's not much of a scorer. Every 40 minutes Bogdnovic scores @4.5 more points, that's more true. OTOH, MK-G gets literally twice as many rebounds, disrupts the opponent's offense, etc. etc. etc.

Not that I should be surprised by your response, good buddy, should I? Every trade the Wizards make is a good one in your book!

I'd love to see BojBog turn into a good player. But, he's going to be the player he was over almost 6000 minutes instead. Yup, he shot well last night. He also shot poorly vs. Philly & Utah. But I'm not worried about his shooting. I'm looking at his whole game, which is well below average for an NBA 3. Sorry!

PIF, in the NBA, like many sports, there are good all-around players and then there are important role players. Bojan is a role player for the Zards. That's why I asked this simple question, which you failed to answer: Who would you rather have coming off the bench to provide an offensive spark, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist or Bogdanovic?

Sorry for the delay -- I'm out of the country & what with one thing and another... and another... and another...

I meant to be answering your question by telling my AL story. In the simplest sense, basketball just isn't baseball. When I put in a pinch hitter, I am trying to get "an offensive spark." When I substitute a player in a basketball game, I get absolutely everything the guy does. I.e. I don't get "an offensive spark" -- I get some variation around his average shooting %s, his average rebounding numbers, his average steals & turnovers, etc. You understand what I mean.

In retrospect -- "wow Joe Blow came in and really gave us an offensive spark" -- it can look different on some occasions. But that is only in retrospect.

If I have the opportunity to substitute MK-G in any game situation (except lets say less than one possession left & we have the ball) I'm going to put him in over Bogdanovic every single time without hesitation.

Why? Because (using averages here, of course) he will help my team much much more than Bojan. Lets say we are talking about 48 minutes (just because I have those numbers handy & don't have to do math in my head).

In that time, Bojan will score 11 more points than MK-G. To do that, he'll use 8 more possessions than MK-G. In other words, with MK-G in the game instead of Bojan the other players have to be responsible for those 8 extra possessions, right? Ok, lets assume the rest of the team has approximately a .50 TS%. That means they get 8 points on those possessions. So, to this point Bojan looks like the better choice. Fair enough.

But in that same time, MK-G (on average) will have gotten 2.8 more offensive rebounds than Bojan. That give us 2.8 more possessions, and using that same .50 TS%, we've got 2.8 more points. Bojan is still looking like the better choice -- but it's getting pretty close.

Actually it's not close at all, because in those minutes Bojan has also turned the ball over 1.7 times more often than MK-G, and he's stolen the ball .7 fewer times. That's another 2.4 possessions to our team -- presumably another 2.4 points. Now MK-G is ahead in effectiveness, but there's more.

In those minutes, MK-G has also gotten us 3.5 more defensive rebounds than Bojan. Probably our team gets 50-60% of those anyway, but that's still another 1.5 possessions -- i.e. another 1.5 points.

Plus, MK-G has blocked 1.5 shots by our opponent that Bojan hasn't gotten to. Doesn't add points to our side, but likely takes something away from the other team's point total, which amounts to the same thing.

It's pretty decisive, the difference. Bojan closes it slightly by getting a slightly higher assist # & a slightly lower foul # than MK-G, but still there's really no comparison between the productiveness of these players. And framing it as "an offensive spark" off the bench doesn't change that. If you get an offensive spark b/c Bojan shoots better than MK-G, but your team has fewer chances to score, more turnovers, fewer steals, fewer defensive rebounds, fewer offensive rebounds, gives up more points, & so forth -- then you're more likely to lose.

Again, if you are deciding between two pinch hitters, pick the guy w/ the higher batting average. If you are deciding who's going to get 20 minutes off the bench tonight at the 3, go with the guy who is overall better considering all facets of the game.

There's no getting around it. Unlike the pinch hitter, that substitute 3 is going to have to play all facets of the game.

In short, your first sentence -- "in the NBA, like many sports, there are good all-around players and then there are important role players" -- is specifically & precisely wrong. Or, rather, yes there aren't enough good all-around players to fill every minute. For that reason, and that reason only, there are what you call "role players" -- which just means guys who are good at some stuff but not good at most stuff.

Of course you can be *so good* at something that no matter how bad you are at the other stuff you are still a monster. Hey, if Bojan scored 27 points on 12 shots & 4FTAs every night, as he did the other night, he'd be better than... just about anybody! We'd never lose again! But of course, he doesn't do that; he isn't that good. In fact, his scoring is above average for a 3, but it's not elite.

.

Your post is laughable on so many level that it's even pointless to argue.

Another internet "coaching expert " making his claim by dancing around cherrypicked stats.

Fact: MKG is not just well below average for a starter, he is way below average player in nba. His TS% of 50,5 is full 4% lower than league average. He is good defender, sure, if he is not that he would be in China ( well not even there his broken shot could keep him on the floor ).

So his turnovers are low? What a shocker, player that his teammates avoid like a AIDS on offense has low turnover rate? Wow, ground breakinng . NOt only that he kills spacing,he is also pretty medicore passer. Guess who creates more potential assists, MKG in 30 mpg or Bojan in 25? Ofc it's Bojan. But ofc,cherrypicking stats helps make you your own case, for your own agenda

Bojan is a role player for the Zards. It's unfair to compare him to MK-G who, while a below average scorer, is way way way above average in everything else & a much better player

So: everything else you mean :rebounder and defender. And in same time he is one of most inneffective offensive players among starters in whole league, with fundamentally broken jumper that is laughing stock in nba for 4 years.
And Bojan, on other side, being medicore defender, still is way better passer, and elite offensive player in terms of efficiency.

Btw if MKG is really that good as you claim, why da hell half of his min are given to Marko Belineli? Oh i know why, you know why, but heey you can't answer it because it would hurt your agenda

[AFM]

PIF angered Based Boggy D with his trolling in this thread, and now He will smite him like the cockroach he is.

NEVER criticize The Gawd Boggy D, you FOOL!

You FOOL!!

[croat25]

That Meliorus hater got his mouth shut. Again. Me like.

[J-Ves]

Bogie going to get PAID

[FAH1223]

Bogie going to get PAID

And it's not going to be in DC.

We wasted a 1st round pick for 25 games plus postseason of Bojan.

Ernie Grunfeld sucks again.

[pepe1991]

Bogie going to get PAID

And it's not going to be in DC.

We wasted a 1st round pick for 25 games plus postseason of Bojan.

Ernie Grunfeld sucks again.

23-26 range pick that most of the time gives you bench warmer that ends up in China after third, sometimes even after second season. btw Nicholson was 19# pick, what a value

[FAH1223]

Bogie going to get PAID

And it's not going to be in DC.

We wasted a 1st round pick for 25 games plus postseason of Bojan.

Ernie Grunfeld sucks again.

23-26 range pick that most of the time gives you bench warmer that ends up in China after third, sometimes even after second season. btw Nicholson was 19# pick, what a value

And yet good teams that invest in scouting are able to hit on picks in the 23-26 range.

You hit on that pick and you have a cheap young talent on the books for 4 years at the rookie scale. In this age of the new salary cap, having as much cheap talent on the books for your bench is a good thing.

And now we won't have our pick or the player we traded it for after July.