Political Roundtable Part XXXI

[Zonkerbl]

Like, in that context, Trump totally has the right to take the 5th. But yeah, karma's funny

[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

Hm. If you abort a viable fetus after 24 weeks and it's not medically necessary... that's murder, right?

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[Zonkerbl]

BTW, Trump is no longer the POTUS. If the POTUS can classify and declassify on the fly, then BIDEN can reclassify the docs that Trump allegedly declassified. Checkmate, mfers

[pancakes3]

long, slow, sad read.

@popper - have yourself a go at it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/

[popper]

long, slow, sad read.

@popper - have yourself a go at it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/

Very sad indeed. What's your solution to the border crisis?

[Zonkerbl]

long, slow, sad read.

@popper - have yourself a go at it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/

Very sad indeed. What's your solution to the border crisis?

I'm so glad you asked, because I have answered this before!

The answer is to make it as difficult as you can to get here, but once people have made the terrifying trek to our border, to make it as easy as possible to get in, process their claims, and assimilate them into society as smoothly as possible so that we can harness their initiative and drive to create jobs for everybody else. We want to skim off the best and the brightest and most motivated and harness their job creating ability. This country is comprised almost entirely of immigrants. They are not the enemy. They are our future. The trick is helping them make the transition from penniless refugee (not their fault!) to productive contributor as quickly as possible.

[payitforward]

Hear hear!

[popper]

long, slow, sad read.

@popper - have yourself a go at it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/

Very sad indeed. What's your solution to the border crisis?

I'm so glad you asked, because I have answered this before!

The answer is to make it as difficult as you can to get here, but once people have made the terrifying trek to our border, to make it as easy as possible to get in, process their claims, and assimilate them into society as smoothly as possible so that we can harness their initiative and drive to create jobs for everybody else. We want to skim off the best and the brightest and most motivated and harness their job creating ability. This country is comprised almost entirely of immigrants. They are not the enemy. They are our future. The trick is helping them make the transition from penniless refugee (not their fault!) to productive contributor as quickly as possible.

What specific tweaks to the Biden administration policy would you recommend at this time?

[Zonkerbl]

Very sad indeed. What's your solution to the border crisis?

I'm so glad you asked, because I have answered this before!

The answer is to make it as difficult as you can to get here, but once people have made the terrifying trek to our border, to make it as easy as possible to get in, process their claims, and assimilate them into society as smoothly as possible so that we can harness their initiative and drive to create jobs for everybody else. We want to skim off the best and the brightest and most motivated and harness their job creating ability. This country is comprised almost entirely of immigrants. They are not the enemy. They are our future. The trick is helping them make the transition from penniless refugee (not their fault!) to productive contributor as quickly as possible.

What specific tweaks to the Biden administration policy would you recommend at this time?

At the extreme, I would eliminate ICE as an agency and build a completely new agency in its place with a completely different mandate, along the lines of what I described above.

On the other extreme, the smallest most incremental change is, Biden is extremely afraid to undo any of Trump's policies because he is afraid of the conservative backlash. Those policies should be eliminated.

Also we need to legalize marijuana and other drugs, so that lawless elements, who create economic situations that lead to refugees, do not continue to benefit from our short sighted prohibition of them.

[payitforward]

...What's your solution to the border crisis?

"Crisis" is a negative evaluative term, popper; it's not a descriptive term.

Can you say what you think needs to change and why it needs to change -- without using any evaluative terms?

I.e. no words like "crisis," "enormous," "illegal," "disastrous," "unfair," etc.

What is happening & no more. The actual events/conditions that you have in mind under the word "crisis."

The term "solution" is also an evaluative term, btw, a positive one -- in the sense that it requires there to be a negative in place. & it prejudges positively whatever actions it is calling a "solution."

Are you aware of any situations, here or anywhere, now or in the past, in which the word "solution" was used as a replacement for descriptive words -- words describing actions that very few people would have been willing to accept?

I rarely check in here, but I'll come back a bunch of times in hope of a response from you.

[pancakes3]

long, slow, sad read.

@popper - have yourself a go at it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/

Very sad indeed. What's your solution to the border crisis?

I think we have different definitions of border crisis, so we can't even start the conversation about solutions until you tell me what you think the border crisis is.

[Wizardspride]

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[popper]

...What's your solution to the border crisis?

"Crisis" is a negative evaluative term, popper; it's not a descriptive term.

Can you say what you think needs to change and why it needs to change -- without using any evaluative terms?

I.e. no words like "crisis," "enormous," "illegal," "disastrous," "unfair," etc.

What is happening & no more. The actual events/conditions that you have in mind under the word "crisis."

The term "solution" is also an evaluative term, btw, a positive one -- in the sense that it requires there to be a negative in place. & it prejudges positively whatever actions it is calling a "solution."

Are you aware of any situations, here or anywhere, now or in the past, in which the word "solution" was used as a replacement for descriptive words -- words describing actions that very few people would have been willing to accept?

I rarely check in here, but I'll come back a bunch of times in hope of a response from you.

It seems to me that current border policy has a hefty cost associated with it.
I read there were 600+ bodies found on the border so far this year. Who knows how many more were found 10 to 50 miles north or south of the border. I've read that thousands of women and girls are sexually assaulted on their way to the border. I read that 50 migrants perished in the back of an abandoned truck in south Texas this year. I've read about those who drown, sometimes with their children, trying to swim the Rio Grande. I've read that the cartels and other human traffickers are making hundreds of millions facilitating this migration. I've read that Fentanyl finding it's way across the border is causing the death of thousands of people. It seems to me that our current border policies might somehow be facilitating the aforementioned outcomes. Not sure but I think there must be a better way of handling the situation.

[popper]

long, slow, sad read.

@popper - have yourself a go at it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/

Very sad indeed. What's your solution to the border crisis?

I think we have different definitions of border crisis, so we can't even start the conversation about solutions until you tell me what you think the border crisis is.

See above response to PIF.

[doclinkin]

I forget if it was a Malcolm Gladwell piece, but I recall an article discussing how some part of the problem with illegal immigration is that the borders truly are pretty tightly closed. That is: used to be seasonal migration was common for the workers on our southern border. They would travel north for harvest season or during peak construction months, then return home. The more difficult it became to cross that border, the more likely they were to embed here and simply send money home. And then to import their families one by one to join them, by whatever means. Which adds an extra head count to social service needs, etc.

Republicans publicly complain, but the Businesses that send them checks also rely on these seasonal workers. Still, the fact that they are here in a clandestine way means they can be underpaid, without health benefits, un unionized, etc. SO there is profit motive in declaring them 'illegal' while using them for their labor.

Seems to me analogous to prostitution or drugs, that there is probably a better policy on how to handle a transaction between two willing parties that we currently label a 'crime'. Some kind of "Hamsterdam" solution that recognizes If people are going to do it anyway, make it legal, tax it, shine light on it, and you'll reduce the danger that comes with illegal nature of it. The Dutch legalized sex work and tax it heavily enough to provide for health care for sex workers, and retirement funds if they contract something in the course of their work. Likewise drugs, legal, taxed, and proceeds pay for rehab, clinics and therapy.

Not sure how the policy would work, but something whereby migrant workers can pass back and forth more freely, provided they have that return ticket and pay taxes or whatever. I suspect if their lives were less fugitive then they'd ultimately earn more competitive wages, which would give native-born workers an equal footing to earn those jobs.

Though yeah construction, restaurants, seasonal farm work, meat-packing, prices across the board would rise. Inflation and all. Unless we took it out of CEO's compensation or something I dunno. Just thinking aloud.

[Zonkerbl]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/08/11/robertson-jan6-sentence-rocky-mount-police/

[Zonkerbl]

ARGH

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[dckingsfan]

One also has to look at the numbers dying in the home country against those that make the journey. Only when you do a detailed analysis can you understand the cost/benefits to the potential immigrant. Otherwise it is all just anecdotal information. If you compare those numbers to the 45K gun deaths - it isn't that big. Or if you looked at the lifespan of a citizen in that particular country compared to the US...

One should note that lots of illegal arms are crossing our borders south - a partial cause the situation. Our demand for drugs is also part of the cause of the situation. Our being the leader of dumping CO2 into the atmosphere warming the climate (and contributing to hurricanes & torrential rains) is also part of the cause of the situation. Our contributing to the destabilization of many Central American Countries is also part of the cause of the situation. Our active employment by business of those immigrants is a large cause of the problem.

And then we move onto one last problem we have... those that make the journey are a small part of our illegal immigration "problem that isn't". Most fly here on a visa and then just never leave. It is only those without the means that come via a caravan.

I am waiting on the Rs to come down "hard" on businesses that use illegal immigrant labor... pretty much never going to happen. Those same farmers are their hardcore constituents.

[Wizardspride]

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