The Javale McGee Appreciation Thread

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

javale's gonna be just fine

[willbcocks]

I thought you wanted to create a system of evaluation by putting Blair up against players who others on the board would have drafted at #5. I listed the most common top 5 list, meaning people would have selected off the list whoever remained undrafted, namely Rubio or Curry. Blair vs. Rubio & Cury. That would have been going on a limb.

Vaguely saying you thought Blair was drafted too low and others did not--when almost everyone on Realgm said the same--that's not saying much. All I want to shoot down is the bragging and shifting goalposts. And so there's something baskeball related in my posts, I'm on the following limbs:

-we should trade Gil for capspace (will be hard to evaluate this one barring a disaster or triumph)
-we should have traded for Xavier Henry and Mo Pete instead of Booker/Seraphin
-we should trade McGee if he nets a top 10 pick (or in the last draft, Henry/Patterson/Davis)
-The wizards will not make the playoffs and will win ~30 games.

ETA: Of course if I fall off my limbs, I hope it is always upwards, the team's actual decisions besting mine.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Gil for capspace? Might not actually be a disaster, wb. You are on a limb, but I think wait for trade value to build and try to get a SF. The Carter+pick, hopefully, might materialize. I RESPECT your idea.

I agree on X Henry. Anotherr limb ... I like. I don't like what they did for Booker and didn't like what they did for Seraphin (but I'm biased by one tremendous first half of first game by Hinrich now).

McGee for a top-10 pick? I'm scared to. You could be right, but I don't know ....

30 games give or take a few? If they do I'll blame Flip. This team had BETTER win 44 games or more. Too much talent, wb. Blatche, Wall, Hinrich and scraps should get you 40 wins. Throw in Gil, McGee, and what looks to be a motivated Yi--I say the team will be closer to 50 wins than 30. (40 plus wins).

[F1uxCapacit0r]

ease up there captain jump the gun

[Ruzious]

While some folks here fretted over every single word Flip said to the media about Blatche last season, Blatche had a break-through season. So, I'm not sure how the conclusion is that Flip's honesty has been counter-productive.

Blatche was on the bench til the trade. He broke through over the summer before the season.

In fairness, much as I can't stand Flip's coaching, Blatche seems to be a big fan of Flip. I'll give you that.

Of course, there's nothing Flip can do to stop McGee from improving and there's always the chance that benching McGee makes him angry and more determined to work that much harder.

MY BELIEF is that it is no matter how good McGee actually is, no matter how much he improves, and no matter how much more skilled he gets; Flip won't respect him or his game. He'll dismiss it as style over substance, as do MOST who post here.

I remember years ago when only Dat and nate and a smitten of others thought Haywood was any good. I remember folks HATING BLATCHE and WANTING HIM TRADED for years.

Right now you have a 22-yr old freak of an athlete who, quite frankly, has a much higher upside than Andray Blatche, and folks are hating him for not being a banger. Flip needs to look at defensive rebounding percentage and rebounding rates and then talk about McGee's "style". He needs to see how many other 22-yr olds rebound as well as McGee. Then he needs to consider if this guy rebounds that well doing it all wrong, what the hell would he do as a player who gets 12-15 every night?

I just don't like knocking the player this early in the game.

I also don't like Hilton Armstrong starting. I rarely disagree with doclinkin, and when I do most of the time he's right and I'm wrong; but this feeling I have right now is the very same feeling I had when the Wizards acquired Fabricio Oberto. I just KNEW his presence meant less for both Blatche and McGee. Blatche broke through because of years and ability. McGee now has not only Armstrong but also Yi to compete against for minutes, as well as Seraphin.

This coach has too many other ways to go besides a guy who he flat doesn't believe in.

CCJ, tough love is still love, so I'm going to give you some of what Flip gave Blatche. I think you're the one arguing for the sake of arguing, because there is nobody here who wants HA to start. Who are you argueing with? And you lost me on your second sentence. You're not seriously saying that because Blatche broke out by playing well in 3 out of 4 summer league games (and nearly got thrown out of the other because he was embarrassing himself against guys who will never sniff the NBA). Are you? The fact is - he broke out after the trade. His stats - including PER were lousy before the trade, because he played lousy basketball, because - as he's basically admitted - he didn't take the game seriously enough. After the trade, those stats improved dramatically - because Flip tossed him the keys to the offense, and Flip did not stand for his bullspit. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how you can believe that Flip's honesty hurt Blatche - considering that his play improved. I just don't get your hypersensitivity over Flips' honest comments. Can you honestly say you've been consistently happy with the efforts given by Blatche and McGee throughout their careers?

And please stop with the "I said such and such was going to happen years ago and sure enough I was right." It doesn't matter to the discussion any more than the fact that you threw a fit when the Wiz picked the guy who now has a much higher upside than Blatche. Peace my friend.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Ruz, check 82games for +/- on/off stats the past 2 seasons for Andray Blatche. Defense considered, he has been the best Wizard PF for some time, with Jamison the starter ahead of him. We disagree about when the light turned on for Blatche.

As for arguing for the sake of arguing, I did react to Flip saying Hilton Armstrong had a better camp than Javale and that Javale's game is style over substance.

As far as the going on a limb and what does it have to do with now, all I will say is the trend is to alway give the general manager and the coach respect but to question the effort/character/drive of the young players. I think sometimes the coach should be held accountable.

Flip said what I responded to.

[queridiculo]

How many years did you want Haywood and/or Blatche gone for their lack of improvement/bad character?

Well, let's get this one out of the way first, I never wanted either gone. Straw man much?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that the consensus on Haywood had all along been that he did show consistent improvement but was not given a fair shake. The numbers bared it out, the play with him on the court did but unfortunately EJ was in some alternate universe where he didn't see it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

My main problem with Blatche had been his complete lack of professionalism. Given his favorable contract and upside however, I always thought keeping him was a no brainer. What I have always taken issue with is the idea that Blatche should be given major minutes on a playoff caliber team when he didn't appear to put in the work to deserve it.

What's amusing to me is that you're misrepresenting my position to make a point, when clearly, it's become rather obvious that everything that was ever said about Blatche was completely on point. Ironically it's under Saunders, that Blatche has finally been able to live up to some of his potential.

McGee's in his third season under his third coach, and this doesn't seem like the right system or coach for McGee. I hope you can tell what a lack of effort is better than what I perceive to be a genuine lack of faith in the coach and some genuine animus between the two.

I'm going to have to say that I am a bit confused here.

Flips message seems to be that everybody knows that McGee can run the floor and jump of the gym, but what he's looking for him to do is rebound and to provide a consistent interior defensive presence.

You tell me CCJ, on a team with a projected starting lineup of Wall, Arenas, <insert SF here> and Blatche is it unreasonable for the coach to expect the starting center of the team to contribute what teams are typically looking to get out of that position?

Precisely what system do you envision where a team can be competitive without getting that production from the 5 spot?

[hands11]

javale's gonna be just fine

Was interesting seeing him next to other NBA bodies.

McGee looked really built and strong. He has an NBA body now.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

How many years did you want Haywood and/or Blatche gone for their lack of improvement/bad character?

Well, let's get this one out of the way first, I never wanted either gone. Straw man much?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that the consensus on Haywood had all along been that he did show consistent improvement but was not given a fair shake. The numbers bared it out, the play with him on the court did but unfortunately EJ was in some alternate universe where he didn't see it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

My main problem with Blatche had been his complete lack of professionalism. Given his favorable contract and upside however, I always thought keeping him was a no brainer. What I have always taken issue with is the idea that Blatche should be given major minutes on a playoff caliber team when he didn't appear to put in the work to deserve it.

What's amusing to me is that you're misrepresenting my position to make a point, when clearly, it's become rather obvious that everything that was ever said about Blatche was completely on point. Ironically it's under Saunders, that Blatche has finally been able to live up to some of his potential.

McGee's in his third season under his third coach, and this doesn't seem like the right system or coach for McGee. I hope you can tell what a lack of effort is better than what I perceive to be a genuine lack of faith in the coach and some genuine animus between the two.

I'm going to have to say that I am a bit confused here.

Flips message seems to be that everybody knows that McGee can run the floor and jump of the gym, but what he's looking for him to do is rebound and to provide a consistent interior defensive presence.

You tell me CCJ, on a team with a projected starting lineup of Wall, Arenas, <insert SF here> and Blatche is it unreasonable for the coach to expect the starting center of the team to contribute what teams are typically looking to get out of that position?

Precisely what system do you envision where a team can be competitive without getting that production from the 5 spot?

hk, what I really want to do is just see what happens after a season of McGee starting and playing 25 or more minutes a night. Tonight's game was EXACTLY what I want throughout the season. Let McGee start. Turnovers early? No problem. Sit him after those or two quick fouls. But what was great is McGee got back in in the first quarter. Javale completely dominated at both ends tonight.

I just didn't want to see McGee sitting and Armstrong playing twice the minutes Javale gets as some sort of abject lesson about work ethic or defensive rebounding.

hermitkid, I'm not mad about a thing now. Flip did NOT start Armstrong.

[Hoopalotta]

javale's gonna be just fine

Was interesting seeing him next to other NBA bodies.

McGee looked really built and strong. He has an NBA body now.

Yeah - Tyson Chandler was kind of in a mode where he was going to cause some trouble for most anybody tonight too. I can smell the fat contract extension coming.

There were rough patches, but McGee manned up respectably well.

[Ruzious]

Ruz, check 82games for +/- on/off stats the past 2 seasons for Andray Blatche. Defense considered, he has been the best Wizard PF for some time, with Jamison the starter ahead of him. We disagree about when the light turned on for Blatche.

As for arguing for the sake of arguing, I did react to Flip saying Hilton Armstrong had a better camp than Javale and that Javale's game is style over substance.

As far as the going on a limb and what does it have to do with now, all I will say is the trend is to alway give the general manager and the coach respect but to question the effort/character/drive of the young players. I think sometimes the coach should be held accountable.

Flip said what I responded to.

You're smart enough to realize that with Jamison playing 40 minutes a game at PF, those +/- numbers don't mean anything. And anyway, you said before that the light came on for him in the Summer - not in previous seasons. His PER last season after the trade far exceeded anything he's done in the past.

Every single poster here wants McGee to play over Armstrong. Do you really think Flip is so foolish that he doesn't want that as well? As they say in the SNL skit - Really? Really?

And yes, as the coach should be and is held accountable, he should also get credit when credit is due - such as when an obvious problem child like Blatche makes a dramatic improvement.

[TheGreatWall]

javale's gonna be just fine

Was interesting seeing him next to other NBA bodies.

McGee looked really built and strong. He has an NBA body now.

He's definitely a little stronger and bigger than he was when he first came in the league. He was quite pathetic looking as a rook.

I just hope the effort on the boards continue, although he still missed some easy defensive boards last night.

[Nivek]

Right now you have a 22-yr old freak of an athlete who, quite frankly, has a much higher upside than Andray Blatche, and folks are hating him for not being a banger.

Straw man much? I don't see anyone "hating" McGee, especially not for being a banger. Many of us are wondering when McGee is going to start putting production with the potential. This is his third season. The team has basically cleared the deck at center to make sure he'll have the chance to play. And his response is to get outplayed in training camp by Hilton Armstrong.

NO ONE wants Armstrong starting ahead of McGee (except maybe Armstrong). I'm worried about McGee's work ethic and practice habits. If McGee was working hard, focusing on his assignments and doing what the coaches ask there'd be no way the coach could say he was getting outplayed.

As for this "banger" thing. If McGee can get the job done as a finesse center, I'd be happy. Most centers need to do some banging inside to accomplish the job, but maybe McGee can be different.

Flip needs to look at defensive rebounding percentage and rebounding rates and then talk about McGee's "style". He needs to see how many other 22-yr olds rebound as well as McGee. Then he needs to consider if this guy rebounds that well doing it all wrong, what the hell would he do as a player who gets 12-15 every night?

Last season, McGee ranked 13th in rebound rate among players 6-10 or taller and 23 years old or younger. There 26 players who met that criteria. He was 14th in defensive rebounding percentage; 10th in offensive rebounding percentage. Again, this was among only very young bigs. Of course, McGee has to compete against everyone -- not just youngsters. Add in the rest of the 6-10 guys and McGee falls to 44th (out of 82) overall; 52nd on the defensive boards; and 29th on the offensive boards.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like lots of guys rebound as well or better than McGee -- even guys his own age. Maybe McGee should be asking the coach how he can do bette.

I also don't like Hilton Armstrong starting. I rarely disagree with doclinkin, and when I do most of the time he's right and I'm wrong; but this feeling I have right now is the very same feeling I had when the Wizards acquired Fabricio Oberto. I just KNEW his presence meant less for both Blatche and McGee. Blatche broke through because of years and ability. McGee now has not only Armstrong but also Yi to compete against for minutes, as well as Seraphin.

This coach has too many other ways to go besides a guy who he flat doesn't believe in.

No one wants Armstrong starting. Not even Flip. And maybe Flip would believe in McGee if Javale would stop getting outplayed in practice by guys like Hilton Armstrong.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Right now you have a 22-yr old freak of an athlete who, quite frankly, has a much higher upside than Andray Blatche, and folks are hating him for not being a banger.

Straw man much? I don't see anyone "hating" McGee, especially not for being a banger. Many of us are wondering when McGee is going to start putting production with the potential. This is his third season. The team has basically cleared the deck at center to make sure he'll have the chance to play. And his response is to get outplayed in training camp by Hilton Armstrong.

NO ONE wants Armstrong starting ahead of McGee (except maybe Armstrong). I'm worried about McGee's work ethic and practice habits. If McGee was working hard, focusing on his assignments and doing what the coaches ask there'd be no way the coach could say he was getting outplayed.

As for this "banger" thing. If McGee can get the job done as a finesse center, I'd be happy. Most centers need to do some banging inside to accomplish the job, but maybe McGee can be different.

Flip needs to look at defensive rebounding percentage and rebounding rates and then talk about McGee's "style". He needs to see how many other 22-yr olds rebound as well as McGee. Then he needs to consider if this guy rebounds that well doing it all wrong, what the hell would he do as a player who gets 12-15 every night?

Last season, McGee ranked 13th in rebound rate among players 6-10 or taller and 23 years old or younger. There 26 players who met that criteria. He was 14th in defensive rebounding percentage; 10th in offensive rebounding percentage. Again, this was among only very young bigs. Of course, McGee has to compete against everyone -- not just youngsters. Add in the rest of the 6-10 guys and McGee falls to 44th (out of 82) overall; 52nd on the defensive boards; and 29th on the offensive boards.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like lots of guys rebound as well or better than McGee -- even guys his own age. Maybe McGee should be asking the coach how he can do bette.

I also don't like Hilton Armstrong starting. I rarely disagree with doclinkin, and when I do most of the time he's right and I'm wrong; but this feeling I have right now is the very same feeling I had when the Wizards acquired Fabricio Oberto. I just KNEW his presence meant less for both Blatche and McGee. Blatche broke through because of years and ability. McGee now has not only Armstrong but also Yi to compete against for minutes, as well as Seraphin.

This coach has too many other ways to go besides a guy who he flat doesn't believe in.

No one wants Armstrong starting. Not even Flip. And maybe Flip would believe in McGee if Javale would stop getting outplayed in practice by guys like Hilton Armstrong.

Regarding Javale putting production to potential: His career averages 14.9 points, 9.2 rebounds, 3.0 blocks per-36 minutes through 135 games played out of a possible 164.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eja01.html

I'd say that's productive in many respects. What his potential might be, considering he's 22 and still growing physically, I'd say he's got a lot of room to improve.

Last night, in 27 minutes played Javale had 13 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 blocks. He did that going against Haywood and Chandler. Those are two quality NBA Cs, but I think McGee was productive and a game changer.

As far as concerns about practice habits go, I'm not privy to what his practice habits are. I don't know how much subjectivity is involved in coming to the conclusion that Hilton Armstrong's outperformed McGee. I infer from what you and many others and the coaching staff have to say about his practice habits that the perception is he's lazy or uncoachable or is just not that good in practice. Is that perception reality?

Good research on the rebounding rate, Nivek. So, by your research McGee is right in the middle of the pack as a rebounder. Many guys rebound better, many worse. Javale was #1 in the league in block percentage. Nobody in the NBA rejected shots better than McGee. Also, he scored reasonably well pre-John Wall. Now that he and Wall have a chemistry, McGee is dunking or getting to the line a ton.

When I say I wonder when people will stop "hating" McGee and that I think Flip is a "hater" with McGee, I'm just concerned that he's seldom praised but often criticised. Nivek, you brought up this is his third season and when is he going to produce. I overstate and emote a bit with the word hater. Cynic or doubter might sound more palatable.

I've gone from being a McGee hater/cynic/doubter to believing he can really help if utilized correctly.

[Zonkerbl]

Why are you guys still talking about this? Armstrong didn't start.

[Nivek]

CCJ: I understand where you're coming from. That first rebounding look I did looked at all youngsters 6-10 or taller -- including PFs and tall SFs. Out of curiosity, I cut the list to centers. McGee ranks 7th out of 11 in total rebounding rate. 5th in orb%; 7th in drb%. Here are McGee's rebounding percentages vs. the average for the other 10 young centers and then vs. all centers who played at least 500 total minutes last season:

Code: Select all

PLAYER  ORB%    DRB%    TRB%
McGee   10.3    18.7    14.5
Youngs  10.9    21.2    16.0
All     10.7    22.4    16.6



So, while his ranking looks okay, his actual rates are all a bit below average.

His other measurables are a mixed bag. His ortg was 106 last season -- average for the young centers was 112.4. He was near the bottom in efg and TS%. His PER was 17.0 -- average for the young centers was 16.9. He does have an outstanding -- 8th best for a player with at least 500 total minutes since the league started tracking blocks.

I wouldn't even call myself a doubter regarding McGee. I'm a hoper. I'm hoping he'll "get it" this season. Third year is when NBA players usually make their biggest leap in production. It's just discouraging to hear the difficulty he's having accepting coaching.

[nate33]

Last season, McGee ranked 13th in rebound rate among players 6-10 or taller and 23 years old or younger. There 26 players who met that criteria. He was 14th in defensive rebounding percentage; 10th in offensive rebounding percentage. Again, this was among only very young bigs. Of course, McGee has to compete against everyone -- not just youngsters. Add in the rest of the 6-10 guys and McGee falls to 44th (out of 82) overall; 52nd on the defensive boards; and 29th on the offensive boards.

Good research on the rebounding rate, Nivek. So, by your research McGee is right in the middle of the pack as a rebounder. Many guys rebound better, many worse.

Just a small point:

Being a "middle of the pack" rebounder isn't a good thing. That "pack" includes a lot of end-of-the-bench scrubs. That list also includes a lot of tall small forwards.

If you weed out the end-of-the-bench scrubs by making the cutoff 900 minutes played, and if you weed out small forwards by ignoring all players with more than 1.5 3PA per 36 minutes, you are left with a list of 46 players 6-10 or taller. McGee ranks 33rd out of the 46 in total rebounding percentage.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... i?id=B3Ws2

[cdouglas]

Would anyone happen to know what Dwight Howard's true height. I notice the sight has him listed at 6'11. Also I notice last night that McGee is taller than Chandler and Chandler is listed at 7'1.

[Nivek]

Good stuff nate. And Blatche is 40th. Makes ya wonder where the rebounds will come from this season.

[Dat2U]

As far as concerns about practice habits go, I'm not privy to what his practice habits are. I don't know how much subjectivity is involved in coming to the conclusion that Hilton Armstrong's outperformed McGee. I infer from what you and many others and the coaching staff have to say about his practice habits that the perception is he's lazy or uncoachable or is just not that good in practice. Is that perception reality?

I find it very hard to believe that Armstrong ever 'outperformed" McGee. Maybe he outworked McGee and thusly was given some credit but unless McGee was doing the dougie non-stop the entire training camp, it would be damn near impossible for Hilton to beat out Javale. The talent disparity between the two is astonishingly wide, and that was made quite clear last night. It would take a fluke of enormous proportions or on-court insubordination by McGee for Hilton to outplay him for any length of time.

Like I said before, I think Flip was simply looking to motivate. Maybe McGee wasn't bringing it at 100% all the time and Flip wanted to push a button or two. McGee has the starting C job locked down IMO. The roster is constructed in such a way that he's the only true option at C. Armstrong shouldn't even be a rotation player much less a starter in this league.