The Javale McGee Appreciation Thread

[Nivek]

Here's something Dwight Howard did this offseason.

[crackhed]

javale's gonna be just fine

Was interesting seeing him next to other NBA bodies.

McGee looked really built and strong. He has an NBA body now.

yessir. he's getting there, and maybe he's starting to get it upstairs too.

[willbcocks]

As far as concerns about practice habits go, I'm not privy to what his practice habits are. I don't know how much subjectivity is involved in coming to the conclusion that Hilton Armstrong's outperformed McGee. I infer from what you and many others and the coaching staff have to say about his practice habits that the perception is he's lazy or uncoachable or is just not that good in practice. Is that perception reality?

I find it very hard to believe that Armstrong ever 'outperformed" McGee. Maybe he outworked McGee and thusly was given some credit but unless McGee was doing the dougie non-stop the entire training camp, it would be damn near impossible for Hilton to beat out Javale. The talent disparity between the two is astonishingly wide, and that was made quite clear last night. It would take a fluke of enormous proportions or on-court insubordination by McGee for Hilton to outplay him for any length of time.

Like I said before, I think Flip was simply looking to motivate. Maybe McGee wasn't bringing it at 100% all the time and Flip wanted to push a button or two. McGee has the starting C job locked down IMO. The roster is constructed in such a way that he's the only true option at C. Armstrong shouldn't even be a rotation player much less a starter in this league.

Yup, it was words of motivation. I think everyone realizes that McGee is the wildcard in how fast our team realizes success. If it turns on for Mcgee midway through this season, we are a deadly team, and everything, from FA, to drafting, to constructing a team, becomes much easier.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ: I understand where you're coming from. That first rebounding look I did looked at all youngsters 6-10 or taller -- including PFs and tall SFs. Out of curiosity, I cut the list to centers. McGee ranks 7th out of 11 in total rebounding rate. 5th in orb%; 7th in drb%. Here are McGee's rebounding percentages vs. the average for the other 10 young centers and then vs. all centers who played at least 500 total minutes last season:

Code: Select all

PLAYER  ORB%    DRB%    TRB%
McGee   10.3    18.7    14.5
Youngs  10.9    21.2    16.0
All     10.7    22.4    16.6



So, while his ranking looks okay, his actual rates are all a bit below average.

His other measurables are a mixed bag. His ortg was 106 last season -- average for the young centers was 112.4. He was near the bottom in efg and TS%. His PER was 17.0 -- average for the young centers was 16.9. He does have an outstanding -- 8th best for a player with at least 500 total minutes since the league started tracking blocks.

I wouldn't even call myself a doubter regarding McGee. I'm a hoper. I'm hoping he'll "get it" this season. Third year is when NBA players usually make their biggest leap in production. It's just discouraging to hear the difficulty he's having accepting coaching.

After all this discussion I see where we have more than a little bit of common ground, Nivek. I am also a hoper. I hope he responds well to both coaching and to the physical challenge night in and night out.

McGee not accepting coaching is a concern if that's the case. How does he relate to peers when they tell him he needs to do better? Is the kid defiant, slow, diffident, or does his attention span wane over time? Is he a spoiled brat, or is the dude just physically overmatched and tired a good bit of the time?

I just think McGee's a bit of a strange kid, in his own world. I'm satisfied that he seems to be goal oriented. I like that he's developing a hook shot. He's building his body. He wants to be more consistent.

So he's not very coachable? That being the case, I would focus on the better attributes. Freak athlete, goal-oriented, and wants to help himself and the team. That's where you meet him as a coach IMO. If I were Flip or whomever else, I'd pretty much funnel instructions to McGee through John Wall. He's got the carrot--the basketball--that Javale wants. He's got McGee's ear.

Alternatively, I like what Flip did the first preseason game. Just play McGee starter's minutes, but use the bench when he needs to sit.

[willbcocks]

If I were Flip or whomever else, I'd pretty much funnel instructions to McGee through John Wall. He's got the carrot--the basketball--that Javale wants. He's got McGee's ear.

I agree with this. If we had gotten anyone but John Wall in the last draft, I would be starting Trade McGee threads left and right (I'm still not sold, mind). But Wall has special leadership qualities and moving the ball on offense has an almost magical effect on both sides of the floor.

[hands11]

I would be awesome if Dray started to show some of the muscle that McGee is showing.

I have read some say it is just not his body type. That I don't really know.

What I do know is McGee looked like he is a lot stronger and in great shape.

He went from skinny kid body to man muscle body in one summer. Can't wait to see where he takes it from here.

And that Sky hook was sick. If he jumps and extends like he did, there isn't a player in the league who can come even close to blocking that.

That, as hard as it my be to get our heads around, give him potential that is very very high.

I dare say the name of the last player I saw with a sky hook that unstoppable.

It is his potential. That is something to be hopeful about. The kid is still only 22.

It's hard to get your head around our team upside future. We have

Wall - #1 pick - Rondo, AI, with leadership and maturity of McNabb
Dray - possibly on of the most versatile PFs in the league. 24 6-11 260
McGee - freak athletic coordinated 7-1 252 age 22 who starting to show a sky hook

Thats some serious young talent with upside right there.

Even this year I think they will be very good if things work out.

Two vet all-starts under 30 in Gil and J Howard. People think of Gils injury but that isn't what stopped him last year. When he played he scored 22 pts a game.

Plus Kirk and the new Yi. Yi looked pretty good last game. 10 rebounds with a smooth outside shot.
Yi is another 7-0 player. Age 22. 250

That's not a bad seven players. 4 young talents with 3 vets of which were All-Stars

[hands11]

willbcocks, I was talking about Blair at #5 being worth the pick. (Prior to the reports about knee concerns). I said he was better than most lottery picks. I talked about Blair being able to start at C. He would be a great STARTER for this team next Blatche. I said at the time of his draft I'd rather have Blair than Jamison. That's the extent to which I went on a limb.

Even a blind squirrel should have been able to see Dejuan as THE pick for the Wizards at 32 (or was it 33?). EVERYBODY wanted Blair in round two ... except EG.

Not worth it. I have been where you are.

You call someone or something. You either get crickets or statements about how you're crazy.

Your prediction comes true and... magically, everyone else thought the same thing.

I'm not sure if you were the only one thinking about Blair and were to get him but I do recall you being the most vocal and committed about it when it mattered most. Some prediction take years to come true so its hard to make the connections. Blair was not one of them.

[hands11]

javale's gonna be just fine

Was interesting seeing him next to other NBA bodies.

McGee looked really built and strong. He has an NBA body now.

He's definitely a little stronger and bigger than he was when he first came in the league. He was quite pathetic looking as a rook.

I just hope the effort on the boards continue, although he still missed some easy defensive boards last night.

I think with the added younger bigs in camp, he is going to get better.

The combination of him getting bigger and being a year older along with Yi, Dray, Armstrong, Seraphin and Hamady to practice against is going to help.

Who did he have to bang with before? When he had Haywood to go against, he didn't stand a chance because he was to thin and to inexperienced. If I was him, I would have moved outside also. I also would have planned on working out and getting stronger over the summer. We'll I think he did both.

I think McGee is going to start and get his minutes every game. That will only change if he isn't rebounding and how he is doing is neg. effecting the team AND someone else steps up. Only player I can currently see doing that right away is Yi. Longer term is could be Seraphin. But neither has the raw talent/athletism that McGee has. Armstrong would have to show a lot in order for it to be him. Armstrong is a back up not a starter.

But as I have said for awhile, what McGee becomes is still up in the air. The sky hoot shows me he is working on some post moves. That looks like a center on offense. But he works on his outside shot a lot also. If he keeps increasing his skills and learns to release his J higher, he could end up being able to play PF also. He can take it to the hoop from 10 feet out. If he could shoot also, that would be dangerous.

Having Dray, Yi and McGee is really interesting. I don't think there is a pure center in the group. ie there is not Haywood type. They are all hybrids. McGee is just the least developed so it is harder to see that is what he is/could be. In two years we will know what he is. Right now he is still to raw to see his total upside and potential skills.

I remember saying the same things about Dray. We only played him at center. He would take outside shots and people would freak. He would put the ball on the floor and people would do the same. I applauded him taking those shots and trying those moves. I could see he had that ability, he just needed to develop it. We see McGee doing the same stuff to a degree. To the post around the back. You say WTF and OMG all at the same time.

I would be majorly surprised if McGee doesn't see 20-25 mins a night. He averaged 16 MPG last year.

[hands11]

Right now you have a 22-yr old freak of an athlete who, quite frankly, has a much higher upside than Andray Blatche, and folks are hating him for not being a banger.

Straw man much? I don't see anyone "hating" McGee, especially not for being a banger. Many of us are wondering when McGee is going to start putting production with the potential. This is his third season. The team has basically cleared the deck at center to make sure he'll have the chance to play. And his response is to get outplayed in training camp by Hilton Armstrong.

NO ONE wants Armstrong starting ahead of McGee (except maybe Armstrong). I'm worried about McGee's work ethic and practice habits. If McGee was working hard, focusing on his assignments and doing what the coaches ask there'd be no way the coach could say he was getting outplayed.

As for this "banger" thing. If McGee can get the job done as a finesse center, I'd be happy. Most centers need to do some banging inside to accomplish the job, but maybe McGee can be different.

Flip needs to look at defensive rebounding percentage and rebounding rates and then talk about McGee's "style". He needs to see how many other 22-yr olds rebound as well as McGee. Then he needs to consider if this guy rebounds that well doing it all wrong, what the hell would he do as a player who gets 12-15 every night?

Last season, McGee ranked 13th in rebound rate among players 6-10 or taller and 23 years old or younger. There 26 players who met that criteria. He was 14th in defensive rebounding percentage; 10th in offensive rebounding percentage. Again, this was among only very young bigs. Of course, McGee has to compete against everyone -- not just youngsters. Add in the rest of the 6-10 guys and McGee falls to 44th (out of 82) overall; 52nd on the defensive boards; and 29th on the offensive boards.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like lots of guys rebound as well or better than McGee -- even guys his own age. Maybe McGee should be asking the coach how he can do bette.

I also don't like Hilton Armstrong starting. I rarely disagree with doclinkin, and when I do most of the time he's right and I'm wrong; but this feeling I have right now is the very same feeling I had when the Wizards acquired Fabricio Oberto. I just KNEW his presence meant less for both Blatche and McGee. Blatche broke through because of years and ability. McGee now has not only Armstrong but also Yi to compete against for minutes, as well as Seraphin.

This coach has too many other ways to go besides a guy who he flat doesn't believe in.

No one wants Armstrong starting. Not even Flip. And maybe Flip would believe in McGee if Javale would stop getting outplayed in practice by guys like Hilton Armstrong.

Just so you know, plenty people have talked about his lack of being physical and banging. Actually, most posters here have.

[hands11]

Good stuff nate. And Blatche is 40th. Makes ya wonder where the rebounds will come from this season.

And

B Lopez at 37

And my man Haywood at 14

Such a shame we didn't get to see Haywood and Dray

Dray is above Dirk.

The core could have been Haywood, Dray and McGee

[verbal8]

Good stuff nate. And Blatche is 40th. Makes ya wonder where the rebounds will come from this season.

And

B Lopez at 37

And my man Haywood at 14

Such a shame we didn't get to see Haywood and Dray

Dray is above Dirk.

The core could have been Haywood, Dray and McGee

But if the Wizards did not deal Haywood, they would still have Butler instead of Josh Howard. They probably could still have managed to get Yi, but probably would not have gotten Hinrich and Seraphin. I think they could have dumped Jamison without Gooden, but would not have gotten Thornton and maybe not the pick(eventually Booker).

So the roster looks like:

Wall
Arenas
Butler
Blatche
Haywood

McGee
Yi
Nick Young


Hilton Armstrong
Ammo
Hudson
C. Martin(?)

That looks good for now, but that is making a big assumption that Haywood stays without being overpaid. Without Haywood that team is probably not very good and has less long-term flexibility. For instance Blatche could not have his deal re-negotiated. With Haywood the short-term prospects are better, but the long-term salary situation is worse. It would require dumping Arenas to really rebuild.

[Dat2U]

willbcocks, I was talking about Blair at #5 being worth the pick. (Prior to the reports about knee concerns). I said he was better than most lottery picks. I talked about Blair being able to start at C. He would be a great STARTER for this team next Blatche. I said at the time of his draft I'd rather have Blair than Jamison. That's the extent to which I went on a limb.

Even a blind squirrel should have been able to see Dejuan as THE pick for the Wizards at 32 (or was it 33?). EVERYBODY wanted Blair in round two ... except EG.

I had Blair as a definite lottery pick in my rankings. Same with Ty Lawson. Predicted Thabeet would be a bust & Jordan Hill would disappoint. Totally missed on Jennings and had Tyreke & Curry as top 4 picks very early in the process before nearly everyone.

As far as playing nerf GM, the '09 draft would easily go down as my best.

[nate33]

Good stuff nate. And Blatche is 40th. Makes ya wonder where the rebounds will come from this season.

And

B Lopez at 37

And my man Haywood at 14

Such a shame we didn't get to see Haywood and Dray

Dray is above Dirk.

The core could have been Haywood, Dray and McGee

But if the Wizards did not deal Haywood, they would still have Butler instead of Josh Howard. They probably could still have managed to get Yi, but probably would not have gotten Hinrich and Seraphin. I think they could have dumped Jamison without Gooden, but would not have gotten Thornton and maybe not the pick(eventually Booker).

Cuban reportedly said that he would have done the trade without the Haywood/Gooden part. We definitely would still have been able to swap Butler for Howard. The real issue is that with Haywood on the roster for the final 30 games, we might have won a bit more and not landed John Wall.

A simpler way to look at would be to say that we should have tried to sign Haywood this summer as an unrestricted free agent. It would mean no Yi and no restructuring of Blatche's contract though. Ultimately, I think EG made the right choice for a time horizon 2-3 years in the future.

[Nivek]

Some stats guys had Blair ranked as The Best player in 2009 draft -- ahead of Griffin. I think lottery teams had reasonable concerns about Blair's knees (which someone with the Wiz described to me as "worse than Leon Powe's" -- and Powe has dealt with knee problems as a pro). But, what Ernie did in the 2nd round was a colossal blunder. Second round picks are The Time to take a chance on a guy like Blair. Minimum salary. Non-guaranteed contract. No signing bonus. No long-term commitment. Just an opportunity to get a lotto talent in the 2nd round.

At the time, I was sorta okay with selling the pick, but the more I've thought about it, the worse that move gets. And just because of Blair's play. If Blair blew out both knees the first day of training camp and never played a minute, picking him in the 2nd round still would have been the right move. He was arguably the most productive player in college basketball that season. To get someone that productive that late in the draft would have been a steal.

[pancakes3]

well, as long as we're derailing the JV talk,

let's not overrate blair here. he's no all-star. he's not even a full-time starter. he played all of 18mpg last season. who's to say that if that got bumped up to 28 or 36 that the concerns of his knees wouldn't become a reality?

OTOH he has had two 20/20 games already which is just insane. also, knee cartilege is important but not crucial for a pitbull power forward like blair (as opposed to someone like AI).

so bottom line, those who passed on him were wrong. dead wrong. however, CCJ, you were hardly the only person who crapped on the wizards for skipping on him. The entire board was in a uproar over it. Other boards with their versions of CCJ were in equal uproar.

2nd bottom line, blair is good, darn good. however, he's not "the best player in the 2009 draft" not by a longshot. Evans, Curry, and Jennings are hands down better players. even statistically speaking, evan's 20/5.3/5.8 on 45.8% shooting should blow all of blair's numbers out of the water even if you dig deep and pull out the pace-adjust/per 36 or PER. (PER is per-minute as it is)

[Nivek]

Blair's knee issues for the draft weren't specifically because of damaged cartilage. He doesn't have an ACL. In either knee.

Teams were concerned that he might tear up other ligaments without the stabilizing ACL, but that's a secondary concern. The bigger concern is that team docs think he's at greater risk for damage to the meniscus, and that he's at greater risk for osteoarthritis. Apparently, there was some evidence of that happening in predraft examinations. Still, I think you take the risk in the 2nd round.

And let's not underestimate Blair's rookie season either. Blair had the 2nd best rebounding rate for a 21-years old or younger rookie since the league began collecting the stats needed to calculate it. He had the 8th best rebounding rate for a rookie of any age. Include players of any experience, and he ranks 66th all time. A pretty good value for 2nd round pick without an ACL in either leg.

[Hoopalotta]

We should start a new thread so that this one can get back on topic. I suggest "Looking back on F-ing up" as the title.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

willbcocks, I was talking about Blair at #5 being worth the pick. (Prior to the reports about knee concerns). I said he was better than most lottery picks. I talked about Blair being able to start at C. He would be a great STARTER for this team next Blatche. I said at the time of his draft I'd rather have Blair than Jamison. That's the extent to which I went on a limb.

Even a blind squirrel should have been able to see Dejuan as THE pick for the Wizards at 32 (or was it 33?). EVERYBODY wanted Blair in round two ... except EG.

Not worth it. I have been where you are.

You call someone or something. You either get crickets or statements about how you're crazy.

Your prediction comes true and... magically, everyone else thought the same thing.

I'm not sure if you were the only one thinking about Blair and were to get him but I do recall you being the most vocal and committed about it when it mattered most. Some prediction take years to come true so its hard to make the connections. Blair was not one of them.

Whether it's worth it or not just depends on how you respond to crickets/crazy comments or liars jumping on the bandwagon, hands.

No doubt the stance is polarizing for sure. I can see it being not worth it, but that's my thing.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

willbcocks, I was talking about Blair at #5 being worth the pick. (Prior to the reports about knee concerns). I said he was better than most lottery picks. I talked about Blair being able to start at C. He would be a great STARTER for this team next Blatche. I said at the time of his draft I'd rather have Blair than Jamison. That's the extent to which I went on a limb.

Even a blind squirrel should have been able to see Dejuan as THE pick for the Wizards at 32 (or was it 33?). EVERYBODY wanted Blair in round two ... except EG.

I had Blair as a definite lottery pick in my rankings. Same with Ty Lawson. Predicted Thabeet would be a bust & Jordan Hill would disappoint. Totally missed on Jennings and had Tyreke & Curry as top 4 picks very early in the process before nearly everyone.

As far as playing nerf GM, the '09 draft would easily go down as my best.

Dat, you were clearly right about Evan Turner this past draft. You are the only person I recall saying what Collins said the other day, Turner is not good without the ball in his hands.

As far as I'm concerned, you are the draft guru of this site.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

well, as long as we're derailing the JV talk,

let's not overrate blair here. he's no all-star. he's not even a full-time starter. he played all of 18mpg last season. who's to say that if that got bumped up to 28 or 36 that the concerns of his knees wouldn't become a reality?

OTOH he has had two 20/20 games already which is just insane. also, knee cartilege is important but not crucial for a pitbull power forward like blair (as opposed to someone like AI).

so bottom line, those who passed on him were wrong. dead wrong. however, CCJ, you were hardly the only person who crapped on the wizards for skipping on him. The entire board was in a uproar over it. Other boards with their versions of CCJ were in equal uproar.

2nd bottom line, blair is good, darn good. however, he's not "the best player in the 2009 draft" not by a longshot. Evans, Curry, and Jennings are hands down better players. even statistically speaking, evan's 20/5.3/5.8 on 45.8% shooting should blow all of blair's numbers out of the water even if you dig deep and pull out the pace-adjust/per 36 or PER. (PER is per-minute as it is)

Folks were talking about Blair as a round two pick, which was a no brainer.

Blair's per-36 as a rookie: 15.4 points, 12.7 rebounds on 55.6% shooting. You're comparing guards to a PF/C pancakes. Still, can't see where they blew him out of the water. (If you want to make a comparison, see Blair's rookie numbers vs another great player's of similar ability/position, Kevin Love.)

Blair's PER: 17.7 His playoff PER: 24.0 with a rebound percentage of 23.9 in very limited minutes.

pancakes, if the Spurs surprise and win the NBA title this year I will be getting back to you on this, because Blair WILL be a big part of whatever that team does right.