Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI

[krii]

You can't keep Wall on this team by improving through future draft picks unless its an instant stud like Lillard/Kyrie. He's not gonna wait around--dude is going to be recruited by some great situations.

This team is going absolutely nowhere so at least a slight chance that makes John actually want to waste his career here with some new people around is worth trying.
If not than do a full tank mode and trade Wall after next season. He'll have another year on his contract before UFA and I'm pretty sure some teams would love to exchange his value/contract for something worth it.

It'd be great to have Wall/Beal/Otto trio fighting for champs or, at least, playoffs but it doesn't seem like a possible outcome anytime soon.

[Dark Faze]

Well look at how stubborn Sacramento has been with keeping Cousins--a player they have no hope of keeping and they don't even have the hint of hope like we have from the two 2nd round battles we had in the Wall era, and yet they continue to hold onto Cousins for dear life. They aren't even as attached to Cousins as Leonsis and Ernie are to John.

I don't think they'll trade him. Not even in his contract year--they'll try to appeal to him to stay and let him walk for nothing. That's a certainty with this GM/Ownership pair. If we get a new GM that proves to have a more team oriented outlook then I'll change my mind, but currently..no, John isn't being traded under any circumstance.

Honestly, I think it'll take at least two years of absolute **** play from Beal before these guys entertain trading him either.

[popper]

Stubborn mule Leonis needs to replace EG at least a month before the trade deadline in order to give a new GM the chance to offload Beal and others and get a head-start on the next rebuild.

[payitforward]

i like the idea of going after brandon knight. Put Brandon night at shooting guard on offense and then move wall to guarding the shooting guard on defense due to his size. This team is built on shooters getting the ball after a guard breaks down the offense. Scott thrives when russell and harden both facilitated. this offense only has one person capable of that -- Wall. We need another electric guard that break down the defense, be a threat from 3 point range--wall is not, and who can get to the line at will. I think Brandon Knight does that for us. He has injury history but he can't be worst than beal injury wise.

Brandon Knight??? Ugh. Nobody in the league displays a more natural instinct in freezing out teammates with his tunnel vision than Knight. He's consistently had terrible on/off numbers because he's a crap defender too. Only way I'd agree to a deal if it involves sending out Jason Smith & Andrew Nicholson.

Seems like a lot of people like a chucker. He's an awful player.

[Dat2U]

You can't keep Wall on this team by improving through future draft picks unless its an instant stud like Lillard/Kyrie. He's not gonna wait around--dude is going to be recruited by some great situations.

Nonsense. Wall & Porter are a very nice twosome. You tear down & rebuild in hopes of finding players like these two. In all honesty we need one more stud to battle for 2nd in the East. This draft is loaded. A quick retool on the fly means we can be better positioned as soon as next season to be a really good, young & upcoming team.

I think the most important thing is realizing the Beal mistake and selling him off before the mistake is in-correctable. I think at 23, with his supposed upside... a few teams will take a bite.

Secondly, we likely should deal one of our centers... this will ensure or help us in the acquisition of lottery balls organically without too much effort (because we'll be forced to play Smith, Nicholson or Ochefu there). Gortat makes the most sense due to his age. Getting a late first or modest prospect would be ideal.

Thirdly, let Oubre Jr & McClellan get all the burn they can handle. Let them learn at trial by fire (this will help the tank as well). This could hopefully establish one or both as cheap legit rotation options going forward.

[Illmatic12]

Wall and Porter is not a 'very nice' twosome lol. John will probably go to the Spurs when his FA hits and replace Parker over there.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

All I know about Jones is he made the Warriors roster. If Jerry West and others scouted him that should tell us something.

Actually... I don't see him on their roster! In fact, I don't see him anywhere in the league.

Who is this mystery man????

Watch on YouTube

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damian_Jones_(basketball)

[payitforward]

that depends on the quality of management

I don't see a lot of teams being savvy enough to have Otto on their radar for a big payday. If we wait and only pay the absolute most we have to I think we'll get a good deal.

First off, trading Otto Porter is a terrible idea. He's become our best player, he's still only 4400 minutes into his career, and he has a big upside.

Secondly, yes, FOs will target him, Otto is going to command a big salary in the off-season. And be worth it. We'd be nuts not to keep him.

Our single most important goal right now, given that this season is already down the drain, should be to get rid of Beal for the shortest salary obligation we can manage, no matter who the players are. We are going to be rebuilding, and it should be around Otto Porter.

Well I think it's becoming Wall & Otto's team. Wall's TO% have been bad but his TS% is up, his PER is up and his defense is better.

Wall is playing at the same level he played last year overall, and that's a tremendous credit to him, because he's having to do so much more. He's getting to the line 8.3 times per 40 minutes (it was 4.9 times last year), and he's shooting 83.6% from the line -- a big jump. His FGAs are also up.

John's 3 pt. % is marginally down, but his 2-pt. % is significantly up (he's hitting that shot no one wants him to take! ). His eFG% is at a career high -- and that's even with taking more shots. TS% also at a career high, with an even larger delta over other years. Were it not for the jump in TOs, he'd be at a higher level than any season in the past overall, despite his usage going up.

Gortat too is playing at the level of last year, maybe even a tiny bit better. And Porter is in an altogether new plane of productivity as well.

So why are we 3-8? Beal is just awful (Ernie just maxxed him). Morris is not very good at all (Ernie just gave up a #1 for him), and our bench is absolutely horrendous (Ernie just chose every player on that bench).

I.e. we are 3-8 because of Ernie.

[stevemcqueen1]

Wall and Porter is not a 'very nice' twosome lol. John will probably go to the Spurs when his FA hits and replace Parker over there.

I could see that, but not as Wall's first choice. Wall is a ball dominant player who I doubt will want to blend into a strict system like San Antonio's.

I think he's more ambitious than that anyway. I think he is going to try and form a big three with DeMarcus Cousins and Paul George. And I could see that coming together on the Lakers.

If we are going to have a chance at keeping Wall, we need to get DeMarcus Cousins here before the summer of 2018. And you have to figure that Sacramento will finally realize they have to deal Cousins before the trade deadline in February of 2018. If we can get a deal for Cousins with Sacramento to work this season, then we need to go ahead and pull the trigger. I think having both on the roster heading into that FA period gives you a very good chance at getting both to sign long term extensions.

[SizzlinSimms]

I'm all for Cousins, if that's trading Beal, Oubre, Mahimi, Gortat, and whoever besides Wall and then work around around Wall, Cousins and Porter.

[stevemcqueen1]

Porter would realistically have to be included in a Cousins trade. Unless we waited until close to the deadline next year, in which case Sacramento's asking price would have to be significantly lower.

[Dat2U]

Wall and Porter is not a 'very nice' twosome lol. John will probably go to the Spurs when his FA hits and replace Parker over there.

Weren't you the same one that suggested not too long ago the best we could do to avoid paying Otto is maybe the Clips offering Mbah A Moute and a 2nd rd pick because no one would ever consider giving up a 1st round pick for a marginal role player?

I know you've spent the entire summer bashing Otto on here and BF but at what point will you admit your wrong to doom a 22 yr old to scrub status?

[dckingsfan]

Trade possibilities for Omri Casspi?

[Illmatic12]

Wall and Porter is not a 'very nice' twosome lol. John will probably go to the Spurs when his FA hits and replace Parker over there.

Weren't you the same one that suggested not too long ago the best we could do to avoid paying Otto is maybe the Clips offering Mbah A Moute and a 2nd rd pick because no one would ever consider giving up a 1st round pick for a marginal role player?

I know you've spent the entire summer bashing Otto on here and BF but at what point will you admit your wrong to doom a 22 yr old to scrub status?

Mbah A Moute? Uhh no, lol.. I would love to know which poster you're talking about, because I'm certainly not the one who said that. Seriously please find that quote

I've never said Otto is a scrub. To take it further, I was one of his biggest vocal fans prior to last season and felt he had AS-potential, look at any of my posts throughout that time in the OP thread:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1382170&start=360#start_here

Tayshaun Prince wasn't as great as some are remembering him. Outside of a few good seasons he was overrated as a defender, and overall the lowest impact player in that Detroit starting five. Those other four guys were legitimate All-Stars, Prince was always a cut below.

The way he's going, I think Otto could develop a legitimate All-Star caliber game as he matures (not a starter, but the caliber of guys like Luol Deng, Caron Butler etc who would get in as reserves). You can see he has a lot of unlocked offensive ability, but he can't impose his will like he wants because of his frame and lack of strength.

Porter knows how to attack defenders on the move and get them off balance, and he's displayed (surprisingly) great touch on a variety of midrange shots and floaters. Just a matter of him gaining weight imo - which he has plenty of time to do, only 22yo. But it's going to be yeeears before he reaches his physical peak, not any time soon.

Over the course of last season, I personally soured on Otto's ceiling, not because I don't like him but because of his play. #1 reason was that I felt he could develop into a top tier perimeter defender after the playoffs earlier that yr (which looks like it may have just been a good matchup vs a younger less polished Derozan), and though he's been better this season it's a reality that Otto does not possess the high-end defensive ability myself and others thought he did.

#2 reason - I thought if he just added a little shot creation ability and ballhandling to complement his jumpshooting savvy, he'd be on his way to being an All-Starish offensive player. 4 seasons in, he hasn't done it and it's getting a bit too late in the game to expect that development. Despite his ability to thrive as a jumpshooter and offball player in some situations, he hasn't expanded his comfort zone on O. Porter still is very averse to putting the ball on the floor, his FT rate regressed and he hasn't figured out any way to draw fouls, and he hasn't developed any kind of aggressive dribble penetration ability which would help him to get to spots on the floor and create for others/himself. Now, those knocks don't mean he isn't still a stud role player, but it means his ceiling is probably lower than what I thought it was previously.

Otto seems like a great kid and I enjoy a lot of things about his game, but rather than projecting exponential improvement in his game I've shifted to taking a "wait and see" approach with him. My personal stance is that, since he's certainly not going to be a perimeter stopper who provides resistance against the LBJs, Paul George's, Derozans etc -- ie the types of wings who who have repeatedly tortured this team ever since Ariza left -- Otto's surplus value (at least, in the context of him being a longterm 'max' or near max player on the team)has to come on the offensive end. I wanted to see if he was the type of player who could consistently put in ~15-17+ppg every night and shoot a strong percentage from three to space the floor, basically if he could be a high-level complementary wing scorer.

So far, the early returns for OP are encouraging, and it warms my heart to see him come out of his shell and have some of these performances - but like I said, I'm firmly in the wait and see camp for the rest of the season. Otto plays for the one and only NBA team that I (am cursed to) root for, of course I want him to do well. If that makes me a 'hater' to you because I'm not constantly writing loving platitudes about the guy, then so be it.

[Illmatic12]

Wall and Porter is not a 'very nice' twosome lol. John will probably go to the Spurs when his FA hits and replace Parker over there.

I could see that, but not as Wall's first choice. Wall is a ball dominant player who I doubt will want to blend into a strict system like San Antonio's.

I think he's more ambitious than that anyway. I think he is going to try and form a big three with DeMarcus Cousins and Paul George. And I could see that coming together on the Lakers.

If we are going to have a chance at keeping Wall, we need to get DeMarcus Cousins here before the summer of 2018. And you have to figure that Sacramento will finally realize they have to deal Cousins before the trade deadline in February of 2018. If we can get a deal for Cousins with Sacramento to work this season, then we need to go ahead and pull the trigger. I think having both on the roster heading into that FA period gives you a very good chance at getting both to sign long term extensions.

The Spurs have always evolved to fit the talent they have. They've already moved away from that strict system last year after acquiring Aldridge, and with the development of Kawhi. Assuming Pop is still the coach I'm sure they'd know exactly how to utilize a talent like John.

I say that because when we play the Spurs, John always seems to drawn to Pop, you often see them talking after the game (granted, maybe he was just schmoozing to develop his connections for Team USA down the line)

Your scenario makes sense as well. I don't know if the timeline would work because PG and Cousins hit FA a year before Wall. PG and Cousins to the Lakers makes too much sense, especially with Walton developing a reputation as a fun coach to play for. That's why I didn't get the Lakers FO blowing their load on that 4yr Deng contract, they're gonna wish they didn't.

There's no doubt these guys all fraternize off the court and have discussions about teaming up together - may not seem like much now, but it's how the Wade/LBJ/Bosh Heat materialized. Or even KD to Golden State for that matter

[payitforward]

All I know about Jones is he made the Warriors roster. If Jerry West and others scouted him that should tell us something.

Actually... I don't see him on their roster! In fact, I don't see him anywhere in the league.

Who is this mystery man????

Watch on YouTube

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damian_Jones_(basketball)

Ahhhh -- I guess all I needed to do was look at this year's draft, huh?

He had surgery in mid June for a torn pectoral -- slow recovery -- which is why he's not on the squad right now.

[stevemcqueen1]

Wall and Porter is not a 'very nice' twosome lol. John will probably go to the Spurs when his FA hits and replace Parker over there.

I could see that, but not as Wall's first choice. Wall is a ball dominant player who I doubt will want to blend into a strict system like San Antonio's.

I think he's more ambitious than that anyway. I think he is going to try and form a big three with DeMarcus Cousins and Paul George. And I could see that coming together on the Lakers.

If we are going to have a chance at keeping Wall, we need to get DeMarcus Cousins here before the summer of 2018. And you have to figure that Sacramento will finally realize they have to deal Cousins before the trade deadline in February of 2018. If we can get a deal for Cousins with Sacramento to work this season, then we need to go ahead and pull the trigger. I think having both on the roster heading into that FA period gives you a very good chance at getting both to sign long term extensions.

The Spurs have always evolved to fit the talent they have. They've already moved away from that strict system last year after acquiring Aldridge, and with the development of Kawhi. Assuming Pop is still the coach I'm sure they'd know exactly how to utilize a talent like John.

I say that because when we play the Spurs, John always seems to drawn to Pop, you often see them talking after the game (granted, maybe he was just schmoozing to develop his connections for Team USA down the line)

Your scenario makes sense as well. I don't know if the timeline would work because PG and Cousins hit FA a year before Wall. PG and Cousins to the Lakers makes too much sense, especially with Walton developing a reputation as a fun coach to play for. That's why I didn't get the Lakers FO blowing their load on that 4yr Deng contract, they're gonna wish they didn't.

There's no doubt these guys all fraternize off the court and have discussions about teaming up together - may not seem like much now, but it's how the Wade/LBJ/Bosh Heat materialized. Or even KD to Golden State for that matter

You're right, I was totally confused about the time line and had been thinking Wall was a FA at the same time as them. That makes it very difficult for him to find his way onto the same team as Cousins and George if the two of them decide to pair up in 2018. I wonder what the circumstances of the negotiations were like that we got Wall on such a favorable deal compared to what Sacramento and Indy had to settle for? Having the 5th year with Wall gives us a massive advantage over Sacramento for courting Cousins if he hits FA in the summer of 2018.

As for the Spurs, if Wall is going to leave, the Spurs are who I'd like to see sign him. He deserves to play for a coach like Pop.

[nate33]

So why are we 3-8? Beal is just awful (Ernie just maxxed him). Morris is not very good at all (Ernie just gave up a #1 for him), and our bench is absolutely horrendous (Ernie just chose every player on that bench).

I.e. we are 3-8 because of Ernie.

I looked up Beal's numbers and was surprised to find that Beal has the highest ORtg of his career so far this season despite shooting terribly from 2P range and 3P range. He is doing so because of a significant jump in FTA's per game coupled with a drop in turnover rate. Overall, despite a horrific shooting slump, he is posting a PER in line with his career numbers, and a WS/48 only slightly below.

If he can get back to the mediocre shooting of his career norms (rather than the dreadful shooting of this season), he might put together a pretty strong season. Don't get me wrong. By "pretty strong", I don't mean that he'll be worth his contract by any stretch. But he might be able to average 21 points per 36 minutes with an ORtg at 107 or so. That would make him a top 10ish SG.

[stevemcqueen1]

I looked up Beal's numbers and was surprised to find that Beal has the highest ORtg of his career so far this season despite shooting terribly from 2P range and 3P range. He is doing so because of a significant jump in FTA's per game coupled with a drop in turnover rate. Overall, despite a horrific shooting slump, he is posting a PER in line with his career numbers, and a WS/48 only slightly below.

If he can get back to the mediocre shooting of his career norms (rather than the dreadful shooting of this season), he might put together a pretty strong season. Don't get me wrong. By "pretty strong", I don't mean that he'll be worth his contract by any stretch. But he might be able to average 21 points per 36 minutes with an ORtg at 107 or so. That would make him a top 10ish SG.

The offense has been running pretty smoothly for the starters. I think all of their ORtg's are up. The system encourages John and Brad to attack and work the ball into the paint and they've responded with much better scoring efficiency. And the system also encourages them to crash the offensive glass, creating a lot of good looks against unprepared defenses.

Brad's slashing ability has also improved quite a bit. Right now he's slumping hard from three point land, which is what's torpedoed his shooting percentages.

The only real issue with the offensive performance of the starters is that TOs have been up a bit and they're struggling to take and make enough threes. Better ball and player movement than Randy's stagnant system is going to naturally lead to increases in TOs, but there is also some unfamiliarity there. Wall has really struggled to limit his TOs as his usage has hit a very high level. He's got to play with more care. As for the threes, the issue has been acute because Beal slumped from behind the line and then got hurt, and he is our only knock down long range shooter on the team. It's started to get better now that he's back and Otto and John have found their confidence from deep. But we're always going to be pretty limited from three with John and Otto playing two of our three perimeter positions. They are so much more confident scoring from two point land.

The defense and the bench have been the main problems. The starters have so many defensive issues. They're unfamiliar with the scheme and you see a TON of breakdowns on the switches. They don't have it down. The perimeter defense has been crap. John is a liability when he's on the ball. He can't move laterally and so he can't stay in front of any body. He's forcing a ton of bad switches that are breaking down the defense as a result. Otto has very limited lateral speed too. He's top heavy and lanky and has to gather up his limbs to shift his weight and flip his hips. He actually does much better guarding strength than quickness, where he can use his length to recover through the contact but he still has trouble getting through screens away from the ball. Beal can fight through a screen but he isn't any kind of stopper either when he's on the ball. So you've got unfettered dribble penetration drawing Gortat away from the rim and Kieff is not a brilliant team defender that can help from the weak side and pull down those tough boards over multiple opposing jerseys. That's why it's fallen to Otto to take on that role.

And the bench has similar defensive issues PLUS their offense doesn't work. They've got no hope either with Thornton and Smith receiving major minutes. Sato at PG, Nicholson at PF, and Mahinmi at C could be a foundation for good pick and roll offense. But you still need a knock down shooter at SG that can also hold up on defense on the bench whom we don't currently have on the roster.

Mahinmi can't get back soon enough, Smith kills us. And I think Brooks has got to start staggering Beal's minutes so he plays with the bench and he's got to get Thornton out of the rotation.

[Dat2U]

Mbah A Moute? Uhh no, lol.. I would love to know which poster you're talking about, because I'm certainly not the one who said that. Seriously please find that quote

My bad Illmatic12... It wasn't you it was Dark Faze earlier in this thread. My apologies.

Hate to break it to you but you're not getting much for him without including a first

He's a free agent in the summer and he's not going to be some difference maker for a team looking to make a playoff push

Your letting your bias cloud your judgement with that outright nonsensical response.

I think you're now letting YOUR bias cloud your judgement.

Who on earth is going to make a trade for Otto Porter as a player to tip the scales in their favor to support a strong playoff run? Seriously? Would a team like the Clips give up any assets of value to upgrade from Mbah Moute for Porter? Sure, they'd love to make that swap, but when it comes down to it they wouldn't actually offer us anything good? Would they offer a first to secure him? Of course not.

You're going to get some meh roleplayer offers for him. Players like Ben McLemore, MCW--guys seen as not having much of a future.

You wouldn't actually get guys who are seen as having upside. You're not getting Crowder for him. You're not getting Norman Powell.

Like that's my legit unbiased take. What's your unbiased take on his value? I'm not being at all sarcastic about this. I want to know the sort of players you think he could fetch in a deal, which says something of his market value.