Political Roundtable Part XXV

[dckingsfan]

I think Beto will safely move toward the middle of the party. He will have plenty of funds to weather the first part of the campaign and get to the middle America vote. This campaign for the D nominee will (IMO) evolve to the "how". How do you fix things not just the idea of fixing them. There is a wide spectra of candidates and a long way to go... it will be interesting.

I would like it to evolve to the "how" but I'm not convinced it works that way. At most the "how" is going to be on a largely superficial level. Details don't play well in elections no matter how important. Where Beto benefits quite a bit is he's got quite a bit less competition for the middle party at this point than anyone else. All the others tend to lean certain directions, left or right on certain issues which stake them out certain grounds. And his lack of a defined policy, as much as it frustrates me with him, is probably to his advantage in the long run as it opens up flexibility to take different stands in general at different points in time while shielding him from any particular direct attacks. He's very good at organizing a campaign, which seems to be his biggest strength. I'm still not sure what I think of him as a candidate but he's definitely a contrast to the others out there at this stage and is probably going to continue to have strong financial backing the whole way through. In what will be an emotional set of primaries, I'm not sure how that will play, either.

This is where we disagree - at least at this election. People with the proposals will get pinned if they don't have the details.

For example, how are you going to get the GND implemented in the next 10 years - errrrrr

What is your version of M4A and how is it going to be implemented and paid for - errrrr

With a large field and everyone pointing at you - details will matter. And I think Beto will have a problem there - maybe not as big as some of the other candidates - but a problem none the less.

[Pointgod]

If you’re looking for policy, Elizabeth Warren has been a policy beast.

[Pointgod]

Fascinating Stuff.

How Cubans Live as Long as Americans at a Tenth of the Cost

Lessons of physical prosperity in a despotic regime

...in 1985, Bernie Sanders defended an element of Fidel Castro’s regime: It was rarely mentioned that Castro provided health care to his country. Sanders grumbled that the same could not be said of then-President Reagan.

When confronted with this quote in recent years, Sanders said he didn’t exactly remember the context for his comment (being 31 years ago) but that Cubans “do have a decent health-care system.”

Many consider it more than decent. After a visit to Havana in 2014, the director-general of the World Health Organization Margaret Chan called for other countries to follow Cuba’s example in health care. Years before, the World Health Organization’s ranking of countries with “the fairest mechanism for health-system finance” put Cuba first among Latin American and Caribbean countries (and far ahead of the United States).

Cuba has long had a nearly identical life expectancy to the United States, despite widespread poverty. The humanitarian-physician Paul Farmer notes in his book Pathologies of Power that there’s a saying in Cuba: “We live like poor people, but we die like rich people.”

It’s largely done, as the BBC has reported, through an innovative approach to primary care. Family doctors work in clinics and care for everyone in the surrounding neighborhood. At least once a year, the doctor knocks on your front door (or elsewhere, if you prefer) for a check-up. More than the standard American ritual of listening to your heart and lungs and asking if you’ve noticed any blood coming out of you abnormally, these check-ups involve extensive questions about jobs and social lives and environment—information that’s aided by being right there in a person’s home.

Then the doctors put patients into risk categories and determine how often they need to be seen in the future. Unlike the often fragmented U.S. system where people bounce around between specialists and hospitals, Cuba fosters a holistic approach centered around on a relationship with a primary-care physician.

Spoiler:

The system requires around twice as many primary-care doctors per capita as we have in the U.S., made possible because the country also invested in medical education, creating in 1998 what U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called “the world’s most advanced medical school.” Cuba has become known for training not just domestic doctors, but those from around the world—and sending its doctors to help other, wealthier countries when needed. During the recent Ebola crisis in Sierra Leone, more than 100 Cuban doctors and nurses were at the front lines.

The much wealthier U.S. also has vaccines and primary-care check-ups, of course. The key difference is that in Cuba, these things are mandatory. They’re seen as akin to doing routine maintenance on a car to keep the warranty valid.

The Atlantic

It’s pretty simple. Remove the profit motive out of Healthcare and focus on primary care and you get better results.

[I_Like_Dirt]

If you’re looking for policy, Elizabeth Warren has been a policy beast.

More to my point. Nobody is going to get pinned on the details. I wish it weren't so but the public doesn't care to know the details of every subject. A large section has one or two issues they might know some or even most of the issues on but those issues often overlap.

Beto isn't my favorite candidate but he's definitely onto something when he discusses issues giving general ideas that don't stir up controversy and allows himself to be against certain issues but not take on unwanted negative opinions from being forced to specify any particular position that can be attacked. It's annoying but DCK won't like Warren any more despite her running away from thr other candidates on actually putting policies forward. Realistically he has other issues that cast doubt on those things. And fair enough. Beto kind of reminds me of Canada's Justin Trudeau in that sense, if I were forced to pick a comparison.

[Jamaaliver]

How Cubans Live as Long as Americans at a Tenth of the Cost

Lessons of physical prosperity in a despotic regime

The Atlantic

It’s pretty simple. Remove the profit motive out of Healthcare and focus on primary care and you get better results.

bingo!

[Zonkerbl]

HRC had/has EXCELLENT policies. Beto's policies are a state secret. But Beto has what the young kids call CHARASMA and HRC just didn't/doesn't. Elizabeth Warren has charisma and I feel like Klobuchar does too. But they're not male like Beto is. I wish them all the luck in the world but I imagine Beto's going to get the Democratic nomination and you know what? F@#$ it. We have to get rid of Trump first, then utterly dismantle the GOP through prosecution and winning elections, and then the Dems can fraction into moderates and progressives all they/we want. But defeat Twitler first.

[TGW]

HRC had excellent policies.

Yep...turning Libya into an open slave market...that was great policy.

Clinton had "excellent" policies. That's pretty funny. I asked my mother, who gets a steady I.V. drip of CNN and MSNBC everyday, what HRC's policies were. She couldn't name one. So maybe Beto is doing the exact same thing. Public position and private position...yea that's a winning strategy!

[dckingsfan]

The Atlantic

It’s pretty simple. Remove the profit motive out of Healthcare and focus on primary care and you get better results.

bingo!

Except... they missed the point, no? Or paraphrasing Clinton, It's substance abuse, dummy.

http://fortune.com/2018/02/09/us-life-expectancy-dropped-again/

This is using the wrong example to prove the point...

[dckingsfan]

If you’re looking for policy, Elizabeth Warren has been a policy beast.

More to my point. Nobody is going to get pinned on the details. I wish it weren't so but the public doesn't care to know the details of every subject. A large section has one or two issues they might know some or even most of the issues on but those issues often overlap.

Beto isn't my favorite candidate but he's definitely onto something when he discusses issues giving general ideas that don't stir up controversy and allows himself to be against certain issues but not take on unwanted negative opinions from being forced to specify any particular position that can be attacked. It's annoying but DCK won't like Warren any more despite her running away from thr other candidates on actually putting policies forward. Realistically he has other issues that cast doubt on those things. And fair enough. Beto kind of reminds me of Canada's Justin Trudeau in that sense, if I were forced to pick a comparison.

But they are TERRIBLE ideas of how to implement her ideas. And she HAS provided details so they WILL be picked apart.

Her wealth tax as she has put it together is just awful... not bad, awful. I think she will fall off a cliff early in the season.

The Just Trudeau comparison is very good (both the good and bad).

[Zonkerbl]

HRC had excellent policies.

Yep...turning Libya into an open slave market...that was great policy.

Clinton had "excellent" policies. That's pretty funny. I asked my mother, who gets a steady I.V. drip of CNN and MSNBC everyday, what HRC's policies were. She couldn't name one. So maybe Beto is doing the exact same thing. Public position and private position...yea that's a winning strategy!

You ignorant slob. You didn't even read her website did you?

Tell me, why should I argue with someone who gets his news, apparently, from a twitter feed of Bernie bros?

[TGW]

HRC had excellent policies.

Yep...turning Libya into an open slave market...that was great policy.

Clinton had "excellent" policies. That's pretty funny. I asked my mother, who gets a steady I.V. drip of CNN and MSNBC everyday, what HRC's policies were. She couldn't name one. So maybe Beto is doing the exact same thing. Public position and private position...yea that's a winning strategy!

You ignorant slob. You didn't even read her website did you?

Tel me, why should I argue with someone who gets his news, apparently, from a twitter feed of Bernie bros?

I didn't need to read her website, you old sloppy goof. All I needed to do was look at her track record of terrible decisions, and her OWN EFFING WORDS.

"I have a public position, and a private position."

In other words, my followers are idiots and will believe anything I tell them. Why would I waste time looking up the policy positions of someone who openly admits they lie about their positions?

[Zonkerbl]

HRC had excellent policies.

Yep...turning Libya into an open slave market...that was great policy.

Clinton had "excellent" policies. That's pretty funny. I asked my mother, who gets a steady I.V. drip of CNN and MSNBC everyday, what HRC's policies were. She couldn't name one. So maybe Beto is doing the exact same thing. Public position and private position...yea that's a winning strategy!

You ignorant slob. You didn't even read her website did you?

Tel me, why should I argue with someone who gets his news, apparently, from a twitter feed of Bernie bros?

I didn't need to read her website, you old sloppy goof. All I needed to do was look at her track record of terrible decisions, and her OWN EFFING WORDS.

"I have a public position, and a private position."

In other words, my followers are idiots and will believe anything I tell them. Why would I waste time looking up the policy positions of someone who openly admits they lie about their positions?

Thank you for proving my point. You are intentionally ignorant.

[dckingsfan]

Thank you for proving my point. You are intentionally ignorant.

Wow. I thought only the Trump followers were this way. I kind of get Venezuela now...

[TGW]

You ignorant slob. You didn't even read her website did you?

Tel me, why should I argue with someone who gets his news, apparently, from a twitter feed of Bernie bros?

I didn't need to read her website, you old sloppy goof. All I needed to do was look at her track record of terrible decisions, and her OWN EFFING WORDS.

"I have a public position, and a private position."

In other words, my followers are idiots and will believe anything I tell them. Why would I waste time looking up the policy positions of someone who openly admits they lie about their positions?

Thank you for proving my point. You are intentionally ignorant.

Right, old man. So which of her policies were excellent? Please enlighten me. Was it turning Libya into a cesspool? Making Haiti redo it's elections because she didn't like the results, or forcing American companies to pay slave labor in other countries less than they agreed to pay? Or maybe supporting every crappy war in existence?

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2989040

https://reason.com/blog/2017/07/03/did-endless-war-cost-hillary-clinton-the

Again, I don't need to see what HRC claimed her positions were on a marketing website. What I can look at is how she voted in Congress and her actions as SOS. Both stints were terrible. But keep pushing the dream, bossman. HRC aint' running because she's garbage...even her handlers told her not to run.

[TGW]

Thank you for proving my point. You are intentionally ignorant.

Wow. I thought only the Trump followers were this way. I kind of get Venezuela now...

How's bloomberg's campaign working out? oh wait...

Spoiler:

[gtn130]

More to my point. Nobody is going to get pinned on the details. I wish it weren't so but the public doesn't care to know the details of every subject. A large section has one or two issues they might know some or even most of the issues on but those issues often overlap.

Beto isn't my favorite candidate but he's definitely onto something when he discusses issues giving general ideas that don't stir up controversy and allows himself to be against certain issues but not take on unwanted negative opinions from being forced to specify any particular position that can be attacked. It's annoying but DCK won't like Warren any more despite her running away from thr other candidates on actually putting policies forward. Realistically he has other issues that cast doubt on those things. And fair enough. Beto kind of reminds me of Canada's Justin Trudeau in that sense, if I were forced to pick a comparison.

This is good for winning general elections but it allows candidates to not be held accountable for ~anything. Beto isn't going to commit to any serious policy goals because he wants to win a popularity contest, which is a fine strategy for navigating a campaign, but I think we would all be much better off if politicians were forced to commit explicitly to what they're going to accomplish in office.

Allowing politicians like Beto, Obama and HRC to be technocratic incrementalists hiding under the veil of pragmatism serves who exactly?

[I_Like_Dirt]

But they are TERRIBLE ideas of how to implement her ideas. And she HAS provided details so they WILL be picked apart.

Her wealth tax as she has put it together is just awful... not bad, awful. I think she will fall off a cliff early in the season.

That's the idea, though. A lot of the ideas thrown out there HAVE only have troublesome ways to implement them. The ones that wind up being the most popular to those who claim to look at the costs involved tend to be the ones that can have hidden costs externalized somehow. For example, environmental costs that are essentially offloading the cost onto future generations 100-fold. It wouldn't have cost trillions to make environmental direction changes a couple decades ago and it will cost even more if we don't make changes now, not to make environmental changes but to adapt to a changing environment. The costs keep going up but don't get included in the calculations because it's hard to put a certain dollar value to them. Same goes for health care where human lives essentially get left off the ledger depending on how wealthy the client. It doesn't mean that there can't be both but stuff like that needs to be put out there so people realize that an awful idea might still be better than the alternatives until someone actually proposes a better one.

I don't hate all of Warren's ideas, either. Her concepts of daycare, maternity leave, etc. are quality ideas. She's taking heat, like you point out, and is likely going to fall off relatively early in the race - I agree. Bernie won't. Why? Because Bernie isn't putting out specifics to the same degree even though he's probably worse in that respect.

Beto, like I said, he takes it far further than Bernie in terms of being pinned down. He uses his lack of specifics to allow him to make statements to the effect that he wants to achieve universal health care but wants to tackle cost drivers first in order to allow for affordable universal health care. That's something that will resonate over time because there is nothing wrong with it, nothing to really attack, and he's very good on the campaign trail. Whether or not he would actually be effective is another matter but what he's doing works more often than not. And in an era where race and gender are suddenly huge dividing lines and we've seen how many voters won't support non-white or non-male candidates, he's going to benefit from that, too, regardless of how unfair it is. And yes, there is good and bad to Justin Trudeau. I don't even know if Beto would be better or worse or the same as him because it's hard to pin down exactly what he stands for. I do think he's one of the better Democratic candidates (not policy fiend but candidate) out there at this point, even though he isn't my favorite and a lot of it has to do with him not being able to be isolated on any particular issue. He has the potential to be a very good president that calms things down after the waves we've seen recently, though I'm not sure he will even be the Democratic candidate, let along win or be a good president.

[montestewart]

Thank you for proving my point. You are intentionally ignorant.

Wow. I thought only the Trump followers were this way. I kind of get Venezuela now...

Riot on the board and STD nowhere to be found. Just another day. Porter for 40 tonight?

[Ruzious]

Thank you for proving my point. You are intentionally ignorant.

Wow. I thought only the Trump followers were this way. I kind of get Venezuela now...

Riot on the board and STD nowhere to be found. Just another day. Porter for 40 tonight?

He's injured. Porter, not SD. Or could be both. Since they're both Chicaaaagoans now, maybe the fists flew over a deep dish or a Luv A Bull?

[Pointgod]

You ignorant slob. You didn't even read her website did you?

Tel me, why should I argue with someone who gets his news, apparently, from a twitter feed of Bernie bros?

I didn't need to read her website, you old sloppy goof. All I needed to do was look at her track record of terrible decisions, and her OWN EFFING WORDS.

"I have a public position, and a private position."

In other words, my followers are idiots and will believe anything I tell them. Why would I waste time looking up the policy positions of someone who openly admits they lie about their positions?

Thank you for proving my point. You are intentionally ignorant.

Haha I see you’re getting the full TGW experience. He’s an intellectually lazy and incredibly biased. For example Hillary Clinton’s comments that he jumped on were in reference to Lincoln.

https://www.vox.com/2016/10/7/13207286/clinton-speech-transcripts-wikileaks-email

The reason he won’t bother to adress Clinton’s policies is because they’re a lot of what he supports but he’s such a fanatic and Clinton hater that he’d rather let Trump win and get none of what he supports than support Clinton and get some of what he wants. See for yourself:

"For families making less than $125,000 a year, we will eliminate tuition" for in-state students at public colleges.

"Pass comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship that keeps families together."

"We will do everything we can to overturn Citizens United."

"Say no to attacks on working families and no to bad trade deals and unfair trade practices, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership."-this was actually a bad position

"I will not raise middle-class taxes."

"We’re going to increase the federal minimum wage."

"Clinton would increase federal infrastructure funding by $275 billion over a five-year period.”

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/jul/22/hillary-clintons-top-10-campaign-promises/

This part is just **** embarrassing. What the hell is wrong with Americans making this clown President?

Clinton's website has nearly 40 pages outlining policy positions plus additional fact sheets for every proposal. Trump, the billionaire who prefers to offer his ideas and vision with broad strokes, has a website with policies, too: It's seven pages.