Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

[Ruzious]

Here's a link to a fun thread on what people think of KAT's trade value: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1924446

One suggestion was Siakam+OG+2 unprotected 1st rounders for Towns. And it wasn't blasted!

[nate33]

I think a KAT trade would start at Beal + Bryant + our 2020 lotto pick. I'm not sure how much higher we would have to go because I don't think anyone else is really capable of offering two young superstar caliber assets. I think we would have one of the best offers on the table.

I don't think that means Minny would make the trade though. They have KAT locked up for 5 years. They have the ability to be patient and wait for a godfather offer.

[pcbothwel]

Something to keep an eye on - Towns has indicated unhappiness with Minnesota - and he's signed through 23/24. His stats are MVP-like - with a PER over 28, a ridiculous TS% helped by hitting over 41% of his 3's, he even excels defensively with a 1.7 DBPM, and he's developed into a good passer. There seems to be doubts that he's a winner, but it's more that his teammates (especially Wiggins) have been overrated. We have Beal, we have 2 young centers, and we have a high pick - so we have trade ammunition. Just sayin. And being from Kentucky, he'd probably be excited to play with Wall. Maybe that trade would be putting Beal in a tough place, but I think he's a big fan of Bryant - so include Bryant in the deal. Wiggins is showing signs of improvement.

No interest in moving Beal for Towns. Lateral move at best...

I don't know how you could possibly believe that.

...But what about:
Wall, Bryant, Rui, Top 3 2020 pick, Unprotected 2022 pick
for
KAT & Covington

This offseason we make the trade and keep cap hold on Bertans & McCrae along with 13.5M in cap room to sign FA PG (Dragic or Van Fleet)

Van Fleet / Ish / GP2
Beal / Brown / Matthews
Covington / Bonga / Brown
Bertans
KAT / Wagner


That said, Id be much more interested in what a team will pay to get Ball/Wiseman/Hampton in the top 3 should we get that pick.

Wow.... You're willing to completely strip all our future assets to get KAT, but no way will you trade Brad Beal. Plus what you'd really like, if we have a top 3 pick, is turn our back on that future value in order to... what?

I don't understand your thinking in this post at all. Brad is terrific, of course! But are you sure you're not over-valuing him? &, are you really willing to give up that many future assets for a team that's, essentially, Beal, KAT & nobody else?

edit: in truth, these are wild ideas & imaginative. So they're useful stabs at how to make big changes when our team is so hampered.

1) I didnt say Beal is as good as KAT... thats obvious. What Im saying is our team will be no better if we sub out Brad for KAT. Outside of one year with an elite Jimmy Butler and vastly underrated Rubio and Tyus Jones... KAT has led his team nowhere.

I worry about his leadership qualities and Butler has eluded to such.

2) I didnt say I would do the trade. I said this is what it would take to get him outside of Beal. Too many other teams have better packages/are in better positions to make the move for him.

[Ruzious]

Then again, Towns just turned 24 in November. Should he have been expected to carry his teams?

[gtn130]

No chance Minny would ever do that trade in a million years. Wall is a massively negative asset, the worst contract in the league by a huge margin, and the league doesn't value Bryant and Rui the way this board does.

The picks are good, but this package is just not enough of an offer for KAT alone. Covington is on a great contract and is likely the most movable and valued trade asset at this year's deadline, so throwing him into this trade is just laughable.

And even getting beyond the massive value differential here, it would require Minny to want to do a complete rebuild - moving KAT, RoCo (and presumably Wiggins as well) for young guys, picks, and...John Wall?!

Otherwise this is a great trade.

[Illmatic12]

Then again, Towns just turned 24 in November. Should he have been expected to carry his teams?

I’ve been a fan of Towns and feel he is on the path to being a generational offensive talent. However it’s disappointing that this is year 5 for KAT and his team is decisively better on defense when he is off the floor. For a backcourt player that may not be a huge deal but for a franchise center it’s everything.

I think it’s legitimately worth asking what the path is to getting past the 1st-2nd round of the playoffs in the modern game, if your team is built around a C who is so vulnerable on D. You basically need a Draymond-caliber defensive captain to pair with him plus several elite wings on Covington level or better. And the chances of assembling that kind of supporting cast are almost as slim as landing a KAT in the first place.


Not writing KAT off or anything but it’s an open question of whether he’s worth building around. One that the Wolves will probably have to ask themselves in earnest over the next few years.

[Ruzious]

No chance Minny would ever do that trade in a million years. Wall is a massively negative asset, the worst contract in the league by a huge margin, and the league doesn't value Bryant and Rui the way this board does.

The picks are good, but this package is just not enough of an offer for KAT alone. Covington is on a great contract and is likely the most movable and valued trade asset at this year's deadline, so throwing him into this trade is just laughable.

And even getting beyond the massive value differential here, it would require Minny to want to do a complete rebuild - moving KAT, RoCo (and presumably Wiggins as well) for young guys, picks, and...John Wall?!

Otherwise this is a great trade.

Covington used to be on a great contract - now he's making 12 to 13 mil a year - which makes sense.

How about this: Beal, Rui, Bryant, and an option for them to switch our 2020 pick for theirs (we'd still get a lotto pick, and they'd have a better chance to win a top 3 pick), for KAT and Covington? And they can then move Beal for more utes and picks - going for a true re-build. We use our 1st rounder on PF Paul Reed of DePaul (we'd need a PF who can rebound and defend bigs).

[Ruzious]

Then again, Towns just turned 24 in November. Should he have been expected to carry his teams?

I’ve been a fan of Towns and feel he is on the path to being a generational offensive talent. However it’s disappointing that this is year 5 for KAT and his team is decisively better on defense when he is off the floor. For a backcourt player that may not be a huge deal but for a franchise center it’s everything.

I think it’s legitimately worth asking what the path is to getting past the 1st-2nd round of the playoffs in the modern game, if your team is built around a C who is so vulnerable on D. You basically need a Draymond-caliber defensive captain to pair with him plus several elite wings on Covington level or better. And the chances of assembling that kind of supporting cast are almost as slim as landing a KAT in the first place.


Not writing KAT off or anything but it’s an open question of whether he’s worth building around. One that the Wolves will probably have to ask themselves in earnest over the next few years.

I think there are 2 reasons your stat could very well be leading to the wrong conclusion. One is - his backup -Dieng - is very good at one thing - Defense - and is far better at it than most backup centers - so that has a huge effect on your stat. Second, KAT has an excellent DBPM of 1.7. He had 2.0 last season. Having said that, I am no expert on defensive stats, but that reasoning is what makes sense to me.

[gtn130]

No chance Minny would ever do that trade in a million years. Wall is a massively negative asset, the worst contract in the league by a huge margin, and the league doesn't value Bryant and Rui the way this board does.

The picks are good, but this package is just not enough of an offer for KAT alone. Covington is on a great contract and is likely the most movable and valued trade asset at this year's deadline, so throwing him into this trade is just laughable.

And even getting beyond the massive value differential here, it would require Minny to want to do a complete rebuild - moving KAT, RoCo (and presumably Wiggins as well) for young guys, picks, and...John Wall?!

Otherwise this is a great trade.

Covington used to be on a great contract - now he's making 12 to 13 mil a year - which makes sense.

How about this: Beal, Rui, Bryant, and an option for them to switch our 2020 pick for theirs (we'd still get a lotto pick, and they'd have a better chance to win a top 3 pick), for KAT and Covington? And they can then move Beal for more utes and picks - going for a true re-build. We use our 1st rounder on PF Paul Reed of DePaul (we'd need a PF who can rebound and defend bigs).

There is a bottomless well of guys making more money than Covington who are far less valuable. How many legit 3/D wings are on $12m/year? Like zero? Covington makes Terrence Ross money. Washed Trevor Ariza signed with Phoenix last year for 1/$15m. Moe Harkless makes how much? Gary Harris? I could find at least 15 guys making more money than Covington who are much worse players. This is getting off topic, though.

Your trade sounds a lot more reasonable. Not sure I would do it because I think building around a center who isn't elite on defense is potentially impossible without having a Siakam or Kawhi type on the roster.

[Ruzious]

I brought that up because Philly had maybe the best contract in the NBA with Covington for a few years. Now, it's much more reasonable with Minnesota - regardless of whether or not he's a bit underpaid.

[nate33]

I've resisted trading Beal for two years now. But we are now up to two potentially gettable players for whom I'd trade Beal: Simmons and Towns.

I really think trading him for Simmons is the most plausible idea. All we really need is for Philly not to a win a title this year with the cause being an obvious lack of outside shooting and guard creation. If that happens, a straight up Simmons for Beal trade would be on the table.

If we end up drafting Anthony Edwards in the draft, we could finally have two young superstar-caliber talents to build around. Keep Bertans and roll with a rotation of:

PG Wall/Ish
SG Edwards/McRae/Mathews
SF Bertans/Brown
PF Simmons/Hachimura/Schofield
C Bryant/Wagner

[gambitx777]

I wouldn't want Simmons on my team as a free agent sign let alone trading assets for him. Dude can't shoot. Towns is interesting but I'm not selling the farm for him

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Here's a link to a fun thread on what people think of KAT's trade value: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1924446

One suggestion was Siakam+OG+2 unprotected 1st rounders for Towns. And it wasn't blasted!

When I looked up Basketball Reference Similarity Scores for KAT a lot of interesting names popped up:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

Similarity Scores
ExplanationPlayers with careers of similar quality and shape (thru 2018-19)
Thru 4 Years Win Shares (Best to Worst)
Player Sim 1 2 3 4
Karl-Anthony Towns 14.0 12.7 10.4 8.3
Bill Russell 93.0 13.8 12.9 11.3 6.2
Shaquille O'Neal 87.9 16.9 14.0 10.4 6.9
Wes Unseld 87.4 11.1 10.8 10.0 8.3
Nikola Jokić 84.6 11.8 10.7 9.7 6.7
Hakeem Olajuwon 84.4 10.9 10.7 10.2 9.5
Yao Ming 84.1 11.4 10.7 8.7 8.6
Dwight Howard 83.6 12.9 9.7 8.6 7.3
Dan Issel 83.5 15.8 13.8 13.5 10.7
Dave Cowens 82.6 12.0 10.4 9.3 6.4
Bob Lanier 82.5 14.4 10.6 8.4 5.2

Damn

THAT is a really good list for a 24-year old.

[Illmatic12]

Then again, Towns just turned 24 in November. Should he have been expected to carry his teams?

I’ve been a fan of Towns and feel he is on the path to being a generational offensive talent. However it’s disappointing that this is year 5 for KAT and his team is decisively better on defense when he is off the floor. For a backcourt player that may not be a huge deal but for a franchise center it’s everything.

I think it’s legitimately worth asking what the path is to getting past the 1st-2nd round of the playoffs in the modern game, if your team is built around a C who is so vulnerable on D. You basically need a Draymond-caliber defensive captain to pair with him plus several elite wings on Covington level or better. And the chances of assembling that kind of supporting cast are almost as slim as landing a KAT in the first place.


Not writing KAT off or anything but it’s an open question of whether he’s worth building around. One that the Wolves will probably have to ask themselves in earnest over the next few years.

I think there are 2 reasons your stat could very well be leading to the wrong conclusion. One is - his backup -Dieng - is very good at one thing - Defense - and is far better at it than most backup centers - so that has a huge effect on your stat. Second, KAT has an excellent DBPM of 1.7. He had 2.0 last season. Having said that, I am no expert on defensive stats, but that reasoning is what makes sense to me.

The Timberwolves have had a poor defense the whole time Towns has been there (even when they were coached by Thibs) so I think it's more than just blaming it on misleading numbers. A lot of the criticisms regarding his effort , body language, communication etc on the defensive end and shoddy leadership in general are less than inspiring.

This is from one of the more prominent Timberwolves writers:

Still, Towns has to do more on an individual level defensively. That’s just a fact. Without a commitment to improving on that end of the floor from their best player, the Wolves aren’t going anywhere this season, or ever. The next great Timberwolves team, if that ever materializes, features Towns playing great defense. That’s not an option in those greener pastures; it’s a requirement.

The whole piece breaks down Towns poor defensive instincts with video clips. Its.. not great.

https://zonecoverage.com/2020/timberwolves/with-karl-anthony-towns-sidelined-the-timberwolves-defense-is-thriving/


And tbf I think it's possible Towns can become at least an average defender in the regular season, but when you get into the playoffs the threshold for frontcourt defense is much higher .. and I'm not sure he's someone who can take you into the deeper rounds of the postseason.

[payitforward]

No interest in moving Beal for Towns. Lateral move at best...

I don't know how you could possibly believe that.

...But what about:
Wall, Bryant, Rui, Top 3 2020 pick, Unprotected 2022 pick
for
KAT & Covington

This offseason we make the trade and keep cap hold on Bertans & McCrae along with 13.5M in cap room to sign FA PG (Dragic or Van Fleet)

Van Fleet / Ish / GP2
Beal / Brown / Matthews
Covington / Bonga / Brown
Bertans
KAT / Wagner

That said, Id be much more interested in what a team will pay to get Ball/Wiseman/Hampton in the top 3 should we get that pick.

Wow.... You're willing to completely strip all our future assets to get KAT, but no way will you trade Brad Beal. Plus what you'd really like, if we have a top 3 pick, is turn our back on that future value in order to... what?

I don't understand your thinking in this post at all. Brad is terrific, of course! But are you sure you're not over-valuing him? &, are you really willing to give up that many future assets for a team that's, essentially, Beal, KAT & nobody else?

edit: in truth, these are wild ideas & imaginative. So they're useful stabs at how to make big changes when our team is so hampered.

1) I didnt say Beal is as good as KAT... thats obvious. What Im saying is our team will be no better if we sub out Brad for KAT. Outside of one year with an elite Jimmy Butler and vastly underrated Rubio and Tyus Jones... KAT has led his team nowhere.

I worry about his leadership qualities and Butler has eluded to such.

2) I didn't say I would do the trade. I said this is what it would take to get him outside of Beal. Too many other teams have better packages/are in better positions to make the move for him.

Fair enough on all counts. Not sure what I think of any of these ideas either, to tell the truth. Even if KAT would make us better, & I think he would, how much better?

Of course, any trade that includes Wall's contract is appealing simply b/c of the boat anchor it represents (this is independent of John and his play -- it's just too inflexible a situation). Leaving out that aspect of your suggested move, I just can't see moving a top 3 pick along with Bryant & an unprotected '22 pick (isn't that the first 1-n'-done draft?).

I guess that, for better or worse, I just want to go through the real rebuild; I don't see any royal road that makes us better quicker.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm sorry but I'd move Beal for Towns.

[youngWizzy]

Grab Gary Clark ASAP

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[gambitx777]

Hes 25 rebounds well and plays D. Can't shoot great but can score. Idk we have a lot of small 4s that can't shoot and unless we are going to clean house with the it and miles situations I don't see a reason to bring him in. But I wouldn't diss like it either.

Grab Gary Clark ASAP

Read on Twitter

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[gambitx777]

Word on the street is Denver is interested in bertains it sounds nuts but could we pull Michael Porter Jr away in a trade ? Doubtful. The Hawks ? Doubt the offer anything worth while? The Celtics might parts with that mem first this year and some young under preforming guys like Langford or one of the Williams . same with the 76ers Smith thybulle or bolden and the OKC first or those high seconds they have from NYC and Atlanta. ?

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[Illmatic12]

Word on the street is Denver is interested in bertains it sounds nuts but could we pull Michael Porter Jr away in a trade ? Doubtful. The Hawks ? Doubt the offer anything worth while? The Celtics might parts with that mem first this year and some young under preforming guys like Langford or one of the Williams . same with the 76ers Smith thybulle or bolden and the OKC first or those high seconds they have from NYC and Atlanta. ?

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I don’t think any of those teams would offer anything worthwhile . If Boston puts the Memphis pick in a package then obviously you’d have to look at that but can’t see that happening.

Think we should be looking at trades involving our other expirings like Mahinmi, Miles that allow us to take back salary in exchange for picks.