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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#681 » by payitforward » Sun Jan 6, 2019 4:22 pm

BigA wrote:
Induveca wrote:Well said PIF

Right, PIF's post above is a concise, clear-eyed overview of where the Wizards are talent-wise, and what we can expect. ...

Appreciate the praise, but really it's about as hard to see where we are as it is to read a large billboard at the side of the road.

I have no trouble understanding Zards or anyone who would prefer to look at the positive pieces of all this. It's not like there's nothing good to say about John Wall, Bradley Beal, Otto Porter, Troy Brown, Thomas Bryant, etc.

But because of all the salary issues, lost picks, etc., this is a different sort of mess. This is like you spilled ink in your glass of champagne. There's no way to get it out! You have to throw away what's in the glass, wash the glass, & start again.

That doesn't mean we look away from the few bargain assets we have: Sato, Brown, Bryant, Dekker (maybe), our R1 picks in upcoming drafts, etc. It doesn't even mean that we trade away all 3 of Wall, Beal & Otto.

All it really means, come to think of it, is that we fire Ernie, hire someone in his place who there's reason to think can be good -- & let that guy/gal do whatever he/she thinks are the right things to do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#682 » by payitforward » Sun Jan 6, 2019 4:50 pm

BigA wrote:...I agree with nate33 that they should just get out of the tax this year and tank as much as possible to improve their pick.

I wouldn't trade either Beal or Porter right now unless it was a really good offer. I'd prefer to keep Beal...

My expectation for Otto is that he'll be a solid starter but will never make an All-Star game, assuming he can stay healthy...

Absolutely get out of the tax & tank (inevitable in any case...).

I like Beal. He was the guy I wanted us to pick. I defended him when he got rough treatment here. I recognize that he turned the corner & has become a good player. But, he is not as good -- not nearly as good -- as people seem to think he is. Moreover, his career year depended on a level of scoring efficiency that would be hard for any guard to maintain.

Yet, he seems to be highly valued -- too highly valued, given his numbers -- by GMs around the league. That alone is a good enough reason to trade him -- it would be a good reason even if the Wizards were a successful team. If you can get more for a player than he's really worth, do it... every single time.

Building a team is not like painting a picture, where you need some red, some blue, a pleasing combination. It's not aesthetic or "complex" in that sense. Building a team is like building a bank account. Period. The better your players overall the better your team. The more player-value you control the better off you are. End of story.

As to Porter, both in 2016-17 & last year he was our best player. He was better than both Wall & Beal in their career years. & way way better than both of them last year. Even this year, in the minutes he's been able to play he's been more productive than either John or Brad.

Whether he ever makes an all star game is completely irrelevant. The all star game is a popularity contest followed by a sometimes entertaining exhibition game. Guys who score a lot of points (only number visible to the casual fan) have an insurmountable edge in the process of choosing players. Who is in the game is not an indication of who the best players in the league are -- even though the game often features many of those guys.

OTOH, whether Otto can stay healthy is another question. Who knows? Still, Otto is kind of the opposite of Beal in that his trade value is way below his actual value in helping a team win games (when healthy -- duh!). Never trade a guy like that unless you absolutely have to for financial reasons.

Note, what I've written above is not "opinion." We're not in an art gallery where you like one painting & I like another. What I've written above is just a set of facts based on a set of numbers.

Numbers are not what makes basketball a beautiful, compelling, incredibly entertaining sport. But, numbers are what determine wins & losses. Numbers & nothing but numbers. If "better team" means "team that wins more games, hence has a better shot at a title," then follow the numbers.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#683 » by dckingsfan » Sun Jan 6, 2019 4:56 pm

↑↑↑↑↑

A much more compelling reason to trade Beal than Porter. Kind of switches my mindset.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#684 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 6, 2019 6:29 pm

dckingsfan wrote:↑↑↑↑↑

A much more compelling reason to trade Beal than Porter. Kind of switches my mindset.

I agree with PIF that Beal is about the only Wizard who has a trade value potentially above his on-the-court value, so if any of the "Big Three" are traded, there's a compelling reason that it should be Beal.

I disagree with his belief that Porter is actually better than Beal, and I categorically reject the notion that he was better than Beal in Beal's career year two years ago. PIF's evaluation system overrates low-usage, high-efficiency players and does not fairly recognize the degree at which high-usage, moderate-efficiency guys make life easy for low-usage, high-efficiency players. Box score numbers do not capture everything. They don't capture the way a high-usage offensive threat draws defensive attention.

My preference would be to trade none of the "Big Three" unless Wall can somehow be dumped painlessly. I just don't see how trading Beal helps a team whose fortunes are tied to a 28-year-old John Wall under an untradeable 5-year contract. The only exception would be if you could trade him for an equivalent young star player like a Ben Simmons. I would not trade Beal for picks (other than sure-fire stars like Zion or Barrett) because you can't really rebuild a team while having $40M a year devoted to an aging, injury-prone, non-star who thinks he's a top 10 player. You only commit to rebuilding if you have a plan in place to unload Wall.

I think we're better off bring the team back together again next year, with a new coach and without Morris, and see how they play then. If it's not working out by the Trade Deadline, then you look at blowing things up.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#685 » by dangermouse » Mon Jan 7, 2019 2:11 am

Thibs just became available

Nows the chance to fire Brooks. And might as well fire EG while youre at it, Ted? Only have to write one press release then.
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NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#686 » by JWizmentality » Mon Jan 7, 2019 3:47 am

dangermouse wrote:Thibs just became available

Nows the chance to fire Brooks. And might as well fire EG while youre at it, Ted? Only have to write one press release then.


No thanks to Thibs.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#687 » by King Ken » Mon Jan 7, 2019 4:10 am

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:↑↑↑↑↑

A much more compelling reason to trade Beal than Porter. Kind of switches my mindset.

I agree with PIF that Beal is about the only Wizard who has a trade value potentially above his on-the-court value, so if any of the "Big Three" are traded, there's a compelling reason that it should be Beal.

I disagree with his belief that Porter is actually better than Beal, and I categorically reject the notion that he was better than Beal in Beal's career year two years ago. PIF's evaluation system overrates low-usage, high-efficiency players and does not fairly recognize the degree at which high-usage, moderate-efficiency guys make life easy for low-usage, high-efficiency players. Box score numbers do not capture everything. They don't capture the way a high-usage offensive threat draws defensive attention.

My preference would be to trade none of the "Big Three" unless Wall can somehow be dumped painlessly. I just don't see how trading Beal helps a team whose fortunes are tied to a 28-year-old John Wall under an untradeable 5-year contract. The only exception would be if you could trade him for an equivalent young star player like a Ben Simmons. I would not trade Beal for picks (other than sure-fire stars like Zion or Barrett) because you can't really rebuild a team while having $40M a year devoted to an aging, injury-prone, non-star who thinks he's a top 10 player. You only commit to rebuilding if you have a plan in place to unload Wall.

I think we're better off bring the team back together again next year, with a new coach and without Morris, and see how they play then. If it's not working out by the Trade Deadline, then you look at blowing things up.

I agree. I used to go to 15-20 Wiz games a year, I don't think you trade either player who are under good contracts unless you have to.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#688 » by Ruzious » Mon Jan 7, 2019 2:02 pm

JWizmentality wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Thibs just became available

Nows the chance to fire Brooks. And might as well fire EG while youre at it, Ted? Only have to write one press release then.


No thanks to Thibs.

On one hand, Thibs is a very competent coach. Otoh, he's bounced around so much that I wonder if he's able to simply get along with people, or he's too honest. I think at Minny, he was hampered by Butler's implosion this season, but they fire him right after a big win against the Lakers, and I think they were on the right track. So, I think it isn't just basketball reasons that get him in trouble. Hey, Rick Carlysle was fired by Detroit.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#689 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 2:37 pm

Ruzious wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Thibs just became available

Nows the chance to fire Brooks. And might as well fire EG while youre at it, Ted? Only have to write one press release then.


No thanks to Thibs.

On one hand, Thibs is a very competent coach. Otoh, he's bounced around so much that I wonder if he's able to simply get along with people, or he's too honest. I think at Minny, he was hampered by Butler's implosion this season, but they fire him right after a big win against the Lakers, and I think they were on the right track. So, I think it isn't just basketball reasons that get him in trouble. Hey, Rick Carlysle was fired by Detroit.

I haven't much evidence that Thibs has been an effective coach in the modern 4-out/5-out 3-point era. His defensive strategies seemed to be much more effective prior to the Stephen Curry revolution.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#690 » by Ruzious » Mon Jan 7, 2019 2:44 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
No thanks to Thibs.

On one hand, Thibs is a very competent coach. Otoh, he's bounced around so much that I wonder if he's able to simply get along with people, or he's too honest. I think at Minny, he was hampered by Butler's implosion this season, but they fire him right after a big win against the Lakers, and I think they were on the right track. So, I think it isn't just basketball reasons that get him in trouble. Hey, Rick Carlysle was fired by Detroit.

I haven't much evidence that Thibs has been an effective coach in the modern 4-out/5-out 3-point era. His defensive strategies seemed to be much more effective prior to the Stephen Curry revolution.

Minny was 47-35 last season - 16 more wins than the previous year. They were a franchise that won 16, 29, and 31 games before winning 47. They lost in the first round - but it was to a super-talented Houston team, 4-1. i don't think he got the credit he deserved for it, and I think Butler sabotaged this season's team.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#691 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 3:01 pm

Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:On one hand, Thibs is a very competent coach. Otoh, he's bounced around so much that I wonder if he's able to simply get along with people, or he's too honest. I think at Minny, he was hampered by Butler's implosion this season, but they fire him right after a big win against the Lakers, and I think they were on the right track. So, I think it isn't just basketball reasons that get him in trouble. Hey, Rick Carlysle was fired by Detroit.

I haven't much evidence that Thibs has been an effective coach in the modern 4-out/5-out 3-point era. His defensive strategies seemed to be much more effective prior to the Stephen Curry revolution.

Minny was 47-35 last season - 16 more wins than the previous year. They were a franchise that won 16, 29, and 31 games before winning 47. They lost in the first round - but it was to a super-talented Houston team, 4-1. i don't think he got the credit he deserved for it, and I think Butler sabotaged this season's team.

47 wins for a team that had KAT and Butler doesn't impress me that much. Butler was a top 10 player and KAT was top 20. They also had former All Star Jeff Teague, and the always solid Taj Gibson. I agree with you that Butler sabotaged this year.

Hmmm. After looking at his record, I may have to reconsider and agree with you. Thibs did incredible work with a not-so-good Bulls team. He won 62, 50, 45, 48 and 50 games featuring a team built around Deng, and Noah, plus one of Boozer/Gasol (at 35 years old) and Jimmy Butler (and Butler was a non-factor in those first two 50+ win seasons).

Your point about Rick Carlisle getting fired is poignant. Even really good coaches wear out their welcome sometimes. That doesn't mean they're not really good coaches.

And Lord knows this team could really use a hard-ass coach who forces the players to pay attention to detail.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#692 » by NatP4 » Mon Jan 7, 2019 3:26 pm

Dump Wall in any deal that frees up cap space going forward and gets us a solid young PG.

Re sign Bryant, Dekker, Satoransky.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#693 » by Ruzious » Mon Jan 7, 2019 3:34 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:I haven't much evidence that Thibs has been an effective coach in the modern 4-out/5-out 3-point era. His defensive strategies seemed to be much more effective prior to the Stephen Curry revolution.

Minny was 47-35 last season - 16 more wins than the previous year. They were a franchise that won 16, 29, and 31 games before winning 47. They lost in the first round - but it was to a super-talented Houston team, 4-1. i don't think he got the credit he deserved for it, and I think Butler sabotaged this season's team.

47 wins for a team that had KAT and Butler doesn't impress me that much. Butler was a top 10 player and KAT was top 20. They also had former All Star Jeff Teague, and the always solid Taj Gibson. I agree with you that Butler sabotaged this year.

Hmmm. After looking at his record, I may have to reconsider and agree with you. Thibs did incredible work with a not-so-good Bulls team. He won 62, 50, 45, 48 and 50 games featuring a team built around Deng, and Noah, plus one of Boozer/Gasol (at 35 years old) and Jimmy Butler (and Butler was a non-factor in those first two 50+ win seasons).

Your point about Rick Carlisle getting fired is poignant. Even really good coaches wear out their welcome sometimes. That doesn't mean they're not really good coaches.

And Lord knows this team could really use a hard-ass coach who forces the players to pay attention to detail.

And he probably deserves some credit for Butler's development - which made it sad that he didn't want to play for Minny. But apparently there was some off-court problems between teammates.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#694 » by dckingsfan » Mon Jan 7, 2019 4:11 pm

NatP4 wrote:Dump Wall in any deal that frees up cap space going forward and gets us a solid young PG.

Re sign Bryant, Dekker, Satoransky.

I would say that if we could move Wall and not get any assets back, that would fine. I just don't want to have to give up assets to move him.

Having our first (and actually playing him), Brown (and actually playing him), Bryant, Dekker and Satoransky would be pretty nice next to Wall/Porter.

But you know that EG is going to sign some vets and Brooks will play the vets (and Howard) and not play our first round pick next year (edit: wow, this is a pretty pessimistic view of Brooks that I am locked into).
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#695 » by gambitx777 » Tue Jan 8, 2019 10:19 am

Wiz get: Anderson and Troy Daniels.
Heat get: Wall and Howard.
Suns get: Dragic and Ellington.

Why the wiz do it. We over all next season save like 16-17 million bucks, We can just cut daniels for a spot or just let him ride the bench. Anderson if he can get to some sort of version of his former self is a useful player and you can use him and hes on a short term deal that is good for us and easier to move later on.

Why the heat do it. Wall is an upgrade over dragic when healthy howard when healthy helps that bench. They are tanking any way for the year dragic ain't healthy any way, they can use their pick this year, then come back with a better team and next year and by all account the heat and wall have a thing for each other so this might be sellable to them.

The suns are not in a place to need cap room and dragic is something they need, a starting PG, so swapping anderson, someone whos not playing, for dragic is a much better situation for them. and after next season and another high pick and some growth by the team cap rooms during that off season would benefit them.

secondary move,
Wiz get: Maclemore and Chriss and a first from the rockets
Rockets get : Ariza
kings get: knight and the protected 2019 second the wizards own and cash from the wiz and the rockets.

last move,
Wiz get: Lin and deadmon
Atl get: Ian and Morris and the first from the rockets we traded for and the rights to Sannon.

That would leave us with an open spot and
Lin, Tomas, Randle
Brad, Tomas, (Daniels, Maclemore, Mcrae) Who ever we do or don't end up cutting or who ever we sign
Otto, decker, brown, (robinson If we call him up)
Anderson, Chriss, Green
Bryant, deadmon, (sign a young cheep guy)

Should help us keep bryant, Chriss,and possibly tomas, maybe decker if we get creative. we add our first this summer and try to put a decent team under them. maybe Lin and deadmon wanna stay cuz they shouldn't be getting pay increases at this point. probably hopefully optimistic but and ill admit im not do as much math as i should have on the parts for next year , but i did my math on all the trades and they all work and get us under the tax.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#696 » by dangermouse » Tue Jan 8, 2019 10:43 am

Baker cut... move incoming?
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long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#697 » by truwizfan4evr » Tue Jan 8, 2019 12:42 pm

dangermouse wrote:Baker cut... move incoming?

we getting parson
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#698 » by dangermouse » Tue Jan 8, 2019 1:44 pm

truwizfan4evr wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Baker cut... move incoming?

we getting parson


Has he been released yet? He is still owed 25 million dollars next year, let alone the 24 million he is being paid this year. That would be some buyout. Makes the Wall situation actually look good.

Unless they trade him to us... for Wall? He'd be redundant with Conley there too. Can't see them going for that.
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long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#699 » by nate33 » Tue Jan 8, 2019 1:50 pm

truwizfan4evr wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Baker cut... move incoming?

we getting parson

Nah, it's just a money saving move. If Baker is on the roster past January 10th, they have to guarantee his salary for the rest of the year, and that will be added to the luxtax.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII 

Post#700 » by Ruzious » Tue Jan 8, 2019 4:06 pm

dangermouse wrote:
truwizfan4evr wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Baker cut... move incoming?

we getting parson


Has he been released yet? He is still owed 25 million dollars next year, let alone the 24 million he is being paid this year. That would be some buyout. Makes the Wall situation actually look good.

Unless they trade him to us... for Wall? He'd be redundant with Conley there too. Can't see them going for that.

The Grizz probably will work out some kind of buyout with Parsons. After that, perhaps he can be had for a relatively small amount.
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