Political Roundtable Part XXIX

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

I’ve got a proposition for Lebron.

If he really wants to make a difference, he should go campaign in Georgia. Tell everyone there that, if GA elects the two Democratic senators, he’ll sign with the Hawks.

It’ll turn out the vote in Atlanta and also persuade some fence sitters who are more Bball fans than politicos to vote blue.

[I_Like_Dirt]

It seems to be one of those things we will not know on how a progressive would have done i.e how Bernie/Warren would have done in a head to head election with Donald Trump. It is possible that Bernie could win- I personally know a fair number of Republican supporters who supported Bernie and may have done better with blue collar workers. Warren would have been a great debator. Then again, it is entirely possible that seem more people would have been scared of Socialism (although Trump may have successfully attached those terms in Florida). Even the polls had Bernie at a similar level of support head to head against Trump as Biden, but it's certainly clear now that those polls cannot readily be relied upon to make any predictions.

True, we will never know. I was doubtful myself beforehand but am convinced now, though: Biden was needed. Republicans aren't really moving to the Democrats in any numbers that matter - it's actually working the other way around. The Democrats stand to bleed middle ground support, even if a lot of it is just people staying home in order to bet on youth voter turnout and imaginary Republicans flipping. The anger definitely plays well and that's where Bernie is popular and people will like Bernie the person better but when it comes how they see things and how they'll vote... that's just different.

Honestly, this is the big challenge for progressives at this point. People talk about it can't hurt to try but it really can if you basically concede to both houses and the presidency being Republican to try.

The reality is that it isn't just Republicans against this stuff. To get it to work there are two ways to go about it; either an absolutely massive electoral wave that is nowhere close to existing (they couldn't even get Bernie through the Dem nomination, for example) or the trojan horse it with internal policy controls that people don't notice.

I'm not happy about this reality but it's clearly the way things are. If the Dems do manage to flip the senate (still a slim chance), Kamala is VP and people lime AOC and Katie Porter start taking on more prominent roles, that would be about as miraculous as it could have possibly been on the progressive front.


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I have the opposite take. Biden was supposed to persuade crossover Republicans. There weren't any. Fortunately looks like the progressives turned out anyway, but for sustainable progress you're going to need them and black voters.

Biden really brought out black voters, God knows why, so if you want to give him credit, its for that. But we need progressive white voters too.

Biden got more votes than anyone ever. I don't necessarily think it makes sense but I also don't think it's logical to completely dismiss him, either, just because you don't like him. Black voters in particular have been on the Biden train from the start and they're not exactly politically unaware. They needed Trump out and they seemed to mostly all come to the same conclusion.

To win, it needed to be someone who catches everyone. I think the progressive movement is getting closer but this idea that it would have gotten lots of votes involves all sorts of assumptions that I'm not at all convinced would have happened. Biden's movement has largely revolved around getting Trump out and the election results seem to show that Trump had way more support than people assumed. You needed everyone involved to be able to convince their communities to show up and vote and just because one message impassions many doesn't mean it's going to motivate everyone. It's not fair, or smart, or whatever, but figuring out how to get things done in the face of reality matters.

More white people went Trump and Biden still found all sorts of new votes. Assuming everyone would have done the same... I'm not so sure.

[Pointgod]

It seems to be one of those things we will not know on how a progressive would have done i.e how Bernie/Warren would have done in a head to head election with Donald Trump. It is possible that Bernie could win- I personally know a fair number of Republican supporters who supported Bernie and may have done better with blue collar workers. Warren would have been a great debator. Then again, it is entirely possible that seem more people would have been scared of Socialism (although Trump may have successfully attached those terms in Florida). Even the polls had Bernie at a similar level of support head to head against Trump as Biden, but it's certainly clear now that those polls cannot readily be relied upon to make any predictions.

True, we will never know. I was doubtful myself beforehand but am convinced now, though: Biden was needed. Republicans aren't really moving to the Democrats in any numbers that matter - it's actually working the other way around. The Democrats stand to bleed middle ground support, even if a lot of it is just people staying home in order to bet on youth voter turnout and imaginary Republicans flipping. The anger definitely plays well and that's where Bernie is popular and people will like Bernie the person better but when it comes how they see things and how they'll vote... that's just different.

Honestly, this is the big challenge for progressives at this point. People talk about it can't hurt to try but it really can if you basically concede to both houses and the presidency being Republican to try.

The reality is that it isn't just Republicans against this stuff. To get it to work there are two ways to go about it; either an absolutely massive electoral wave that is nowhere close to existing (they couldn't even get Bernie through the Dem nomination, for example) or the trojan horse it with internal policy controls that people don't notice.

I'm not happy about this reality but it's clearly the way things are. If the Dems do manage to flip the senate (still a slim chance), Kamala is VP and people lime AOC and Katie Porter start taking on more prominent roles, that would be about as miraculous as it could have possibly been on the progressive front.


Sent from my SM-G970W using RealGM mobile app

I have the opposite take. Biden was supposed to persuade crossover Republicans. There weren't any. Fortunately looks like the progressives turned out anyway, but for sustainable progress you're going to need them and black voters.

Biden really brought out black voters, God knows why, so if you want to give him credit, its for that. But we need progressive white voters too.

Biden did manage to flip some counties that went for Trump in 2016 back blue and he also reduced Trump’s margins in the suburbs. That was his value at the top of the ticket. Also don’t forget Arizona and Georgia are going blue.

I don’t think it was Biden that brought out black voters, it was a combination of fear of Trump, a ton of activism on the ground and having Harris as the VP certainly helped too. Biden had the right message at the top of bringing the country together and had a laser focus on the coronavirus. I don’t think many candidates could have pulled off that message discipline

[Zonkerbl]

Do they have paper ballots in Georgia? Probably not.

[Pointgod]

True, we will never know. I was doubtful myself beforehand but am convinced now, though: Biden was needed. Republicans aren't really moving to the Democrats in any numbers that matter - it's actually working the other way around. The Democrats stand to bleed middle ground support, even if a lot of it is just people staying home in order to bet on youth voter turnout and imaginary Republicans flipping. The anger definitely plays well and that's where Bernie is popular and people will like Bernie the person better but when it comes how they see things and how they'll vote... that's just different.

Honestly, this is the big challenge for progressives at this point. People talk about it can't hurt to try but it really can if you basically concede to both houses and the presidency being Republican to try.

The reality is that it isn't just Republicans against this stuff. To get it to work there are two ways to go about it; either an absolutely massive electoral wave that is nowhere close to existing (they couldn't even get Bernie through the Dem nomination, for example) or the trojan horse it with internal policy controls that people don't notice.

I'm not happy about this reality but it's clearly the way things are. If the Dems do manage to flip the senate (still a slim chance), Kamala is VP and people lime AOC and Katie Porter start taking on more prominent roles, that would be about as miraculous as it could have possibly been on the progressive front.


Sent from my SM-G970W using RealGM mobile app

I have the opposite take. Biden was supposed to persuade crossover Republicans. There weren't any. Fortunately looks like the progressives turned out anyway, but for sustainable progress you're going to need them and black voters.

Biden really brought out black voters, God knows why, so if you want to give him credit, its for that. But we need progressive white voters too.

Biden got more votes than anyone ever. I don't necessarily think it makes sense but I also don't think it's logical to completely dismiss him, either, just because you don't like him. Black voters in particular have been on the Biden train from the start and they're not exactly politically unaware. They needed Trump out and they seemed to mostly all come to the same conclusion.

To win, it needed to be someone who catches everyone. I think the progressive movement is getting closer but this idea that it would have gotten lots of votes involves all sorts of assumptions that I'm not at all convinced would have happened. Biden's movement has largely revolved around getting Trump out and the election results seem to show that Trump had way more support than people assumed. You needed everyone involved to be able to convince their communities to show up and vote and just because one message impassions many doesn't mean it's going to motivate everyone. It's not fair, or smart, or whatever, but figuring out how to get things done in the face of reality matters.

More white people went Trump and Biden still found all sorts of new votes. Assuming everyone would have done the same... I'm not so sure.

The Progressive movement (I hate that term can we find a better one) has serious blinders on because a majority of them are from firmly blue states in safe districts. California, New York, Massachusetts are vastly different from the mid west, south etc. So what plays there might not work in other states. And the Democratic Party needs to get away from the idea of stars. God bless AOC but she’s literally one person out of 200 that gets disproportionate media coverage. The Party needs to be the star and people need to feel good about being in the party. The Republicans tried to find a star after 2008 but failed miserably (lol @ Paul Ryan) but they remained in power and acquired more power. Why? Because their message is simple and they appeal to emotions instead of intellect. I think the Democratic Leadership needs to clean house from top to bottom.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I'm not sure I'd go that far. It's not parties creating stars, it's people. I mean yeah, Ryan is a dumbass but Trump had way more brand and star power. I'm not a huge fan of party over all, personally, though it can't be forgotten, either. At the foundation, it's still people.

Whatever you want to call it, there need to be a massive host of reforms in rather short order on environmental, social, technical, economic, etc. grounds. Getting mad at those that don't agree with you won't win elections. You need to build a collective and keep building. AOC seems to understand this even if not all her supporters do.

I do agree that Biden turned states that others probably wouldn't have. So work with Biden. He's one of the bigger political compromisers ever and a great opportunity to actually get some things done. The most important part is figuring out how to keep people together so we don't get another Trump if Republicans stall everything.

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[doclinkin]

Do they have paper ballots in Georgia? Probably not.

No they do not. Link.

A Ballot Marking Device gives you a printout receipt of how you think you voted, but does not keep a physical paper record of it. There is no physical verifiable check on your tabulated vote. In a state with GOP leadership that has profited from voter suppression gerrymandering and fraud. The electronic tally is not the real vote. Reality has a liberal bias, but: Ruthlessness wins. Manifest destiny, if you can get away with it, god loved you and you were meant to win. OR as they say in NASCAR "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying".

[Zonkerbl]

In 2004, Karl Rove basically won the election by manufacturing lies about gay marriage. Less than two decades later gay marriage was legal.

The red scare the Republicans used this time, imho, was "defund the police." I bet you dollars over doughnuts defunding the police will be accepted in the mainstream in a decade or so.

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

[Zonkerbl]

Boo hoo!!!!

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

[dckingsfan]

Read on Twitter

[dckingsfan]

In 2004, Karl Rove basically won the election by manufacturing lies about gay marriage. Less than two decades later gay marriage was legal.

The red scare the Republicans used this time, imho, was "defund the police." I bet you dollars over doughnuts defunding the police will be accepted in the mainstream in a decade or so.

Or reimagine... either way - it opens up the window to have a discussion.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Zonkerbl]

Agreed, Doc, and this is where I think we need to pay closer attention to what Elizabeth Warren seems to be trying to do. She's making noise and getting the message out there and normalize it but then drops back when push comes to shove. She played behind the scenes with Hillary and she's clearly doing it again with Biden.

Some of the most ardent progressives see that as weakness but it's really quite smart and not totally out of line with Sun Tzu. Democrats are a barrier of entry but they aren't the enemy and she keeps her eyes laser focused on the enemy while furthering her causes. Yeah, it would be nice to see a massive electoral wave sweep these kinds of needed reforms in, but denying the obvious and fighting the impossible fight in the style of Albert Camus won't change anything. Losing the battle to change the dynamics of the war is way smarter. It still might not work but at least it stands a chance.

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Agree, there are worse strategies than following Elizabeth Warren's lead

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

stupid onions

[dckingsfan]

stupid onions

[montestewart]

Big noisy party downtown

[payitforward]

You can't feel how heavy the burden until you put it down. I thank God to have allowed me to see this day.

[montestewart]

Second favorite story of the day

Trump Team Holds News Conference Outside Drab Landscaping Firm, Next to Adult Book Store

On Saturday morning, shortly before the AP and other news outlets called the election for Joe Biden, President Donald Trump took to Twitter to announce that his lawyers would be holding a “big press conference” in Philadelphia. But there seems to have been some major confusion about where it would be held. First Trump tweeted it would take place at the “Four Seasons, Philadelphia.” Trump later corrected himself and said that the news conference was going to be held at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping. And the Four Seasons Hotel sent out its own tweet, making sure everyone knew that the news conference would not be held there but rather at the landscaping business that has “no relation with the hotel.”

When journalists arrived at the site of the news conference, they were flabbergasted by the scene and many quickly speculated that someone in the Trump campaign made a serious mistake. After all, the parking lot of a landscaping business in the outskirts of the city in an industrial part of town was a drab backdrop for a news conference by a president who wanted to convince Americans he still had a chance of winning. And making matters even stranger, the landscaping business was between an adult bookstore and a cremation center. The location led to lots of mockery online, and many people were very happy with the scene that was ripe for mockery, and some saw as a poignant metaphor of the failure of the Trump campaign.