Official Trade Thread Part XLV

[9 and 20]

I'd do that New York or the Brooklyn trade. I've been waiting 12, maybe 15 years to hit that big red looney tunes detonate button. like the coyote with the tnt plunger. Just do it already!

[payitforward]

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Man, Ted rubs me the wrong way!
Never ever -- never! -- kick a guy you've just fired.

Tommy inherited an awful situation created by Ernie -- you hear Ted taking the blame on himself for the long leash Ernie had?

Tommy made some brilliant moves (getting Davis for literally nothing, the Wall trade, the Russ trade, the trade for KP....) & a bunch of mistakes as well.

The way you talk about him as an owner is to praise the great moves & just point out that the needle didn't move "for whatever reason," & so it became time to make a big change.

Then you repeat clearly & explicitly that "Tommy had a tough job & did some terrific things, but it didn't work out, which sometimes happens. We recognize him & wish him the best."

Ted just isn't equipped to handle this kind of thing correctly, I don't know why. Frankly, he didn't handle it right when he fired Ernie either (not to mention being unable to do it a whole lot earlier!).

[80sballboy]

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?s=20

[pcbothwel]

Who is giving up 2 first round picks for Kuzma?

The picks would mostly be compensation for taking on Simmons.

I did not realize he will be making 40M/year at the tail end of his contract. He has 2 more years left. Its an interesting idea, I wonder if new management would make a trade like this.

They really emphasized culture in the press conference and revere teams like the Heat. Simmons could bounce back, or he could be a huge drain on the team financially and culturally if hes damaged malcontent who doesn't appear to have his love for basketball match his natural gifts.

The other thing we need to keep in mind is the luxury tax. Whether we keep Beal, Kuz, and KP or trade them, they will account for over $100M next year (Beal at 47, KP at 32M, Kuz at 22M). We are right at the tax once you add in our other contracts and pick(s).
So we are going to need to figure out how to cut a few million in one of the trades.
If the offers for a SnT for Kuz arent good, I think you let him walk to save the salary so you can use the full MLE. Give me Delon Wright-Type for 10M over Kuz at 20M+ all day.

[nate33]

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?s=20

Hmmm.

I'd probably trade Morris for two of their 2RP's - particularly if they're a couple of years down the road as Durant declines.

[nate33]

The picks would mostly be compensation for taking on Simmons.

I did not realize he will be making 40M/year at the tail end of his contract. He has 2 more years left. Its an interesting idea, I wonder if new management would make a trade like this.

They really emphasized culture in the press conference and revere teams like the Heat. Simmons could bounce back, or he could be a huge drain on the team financially and culturally if hes damaged malcontent who doesn't appear to have his love for basketball match his natural gifts.

The other thing we need to keep in mind is the luxury tax. Whether we keep Beal, Kuz, and KP or trade them, they will account for over $100M next year (Beal at 47, KP at 32M, Kuz at 22M). We are right at the tax once you add in our other contracts and pick(s).
So we are going to need to figure out how to cut a few million in one of the trades.
If the offers for a SnT for Kuz arent good, I think you let him walk to save the salary so you can use the full MLE. Give me Delon Wright-Type for 10M over Kuz at 20M+ all day.

Agreed. I absolutely would not trade for Simmons unless Beal's contract was outgoing.

[gambitx777]

Who is giving up 2 first round picks for Kuzma?

New York might
Depending on several factors. They have our pick which isn't that valuable if we go into a tank because it's so heavily protected. The det pick which is more heavily protected. The dal pick that's going to be 20s cuz they can't afford to be bad this year. And a mil pick that they only get if it's higher than top 5 or something I think. Those don't hold a ton of value so they could give our pick and one or more of those not great picks for kuz and I'd take those.

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[Dat2U]

Read on Twitter

Man, Ted rubs me the wrong way!
Never ever -- never! -- kick a guy you've just fired.

Tommy inherited an awful situation created by Ernie -- you hear Ted taking the blame on himself for the long leash Ernie had?

Tommy made some brilliant moves (getting Davis for literally nothing, the Wall trade, the Russ trade, the trade for KP....) & a bunch of mistakes as well.

The way you talk about him as an owner is to praise the great moves & just point out that the needle didn't move "for whatever reason," & so it became time to make a big change.

Then you repeat clearly & explicitly that "Tommy had a tough job & did some terrific things, but it didn't work out, which sometimes happens. We recognize him & wish him the best."

Ted just isn't equipped to handle this kind of thing correctly, I don't know why. Frankly, he didn't handle it right when he fired Ernie either (not to mention being unable to do it a whole lot earlier!).

Tommy was terrible. Worse than the guy that mentored him. Busy around the edges but most of his 'good' moves were empty calories (and I said it at the time - making moves around the edges doesn't change anything). Props for the KP move. The Gaff trade got him a play-in birth but Gaff came back down to earth thereafter. Everything else was a sh*tshow. From the car salesman interviews, to the Beal lovefest, the annual screwing up of the draft to trading for modest vets to fit outsized roles in a desperate attempt to be all in for the play-in. Never once did he display a real plan. His next job should be for Eastern Motors, where your job is your credit. He needs to be selling 2016 Passat's & Altima's.

[NatP4]

That’s a bit harsh and unnecessary.

Westbrook trade was also really good.

[payitforward]

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?s=20

Hmmm.

I'd probably trade Morris for two of their 2RP's - particularly if they're a couple of years down the road as Durant declines.

Absolutely. Trade Monte -- or anyone on the roster -- for value in the form of picks.

I like Monte Morris a lot, as you know, but the strategy right now has to be to exchange current value for future value. Truth is... it doesn't matter who on the team we are talking about, if there's a good deal on the table the guy should be traded.

& it's not about "if he's good why don't we keep him?" If he's good, then make sure to get more for him in a trade.

E.g. let's say we traded KP for some combination of picks & a young player with what we think is a lot of potential. The result might be that instead of winning 33 games in '23-4 we win 28 games.

So what? You make the trade to get the future value -- the growth of that "young player" plus the guys you get with the picks that came to you in the trade. So, instead of KP's positive value in '23-24, you get the positive value down the road when -- if your FO has been executing well -- that positive value helps to drive you deep into the playoffs.

IOW, nate's "a couple of years down the road" preference should drive everything we do!

[nate33]

Read on Twitter

Man, Ted rubs me the wrong way!
Never ever -- never! -- kick a guy you've just fired.

Tommy inherited an awful situation created by Ernie -- you hear Ted taking the blame on himself for the long leash Ernie had?

Tommy made some brilliant moves (getting Davis for literally nothing, the Wall trade, the Russ trade, the trade for KP....) & a bunch of mistakes as well.

The way you talk about him as an owner is to praise the great moves & just point out that the needle didn't move "for whatever reason," & so it became time to make a big change.

Then you repeat clearly & explicitly that "Tommy had a tough job & did some terrific things, but it didn't work out, which sometimes happens. We recognize him & wish him the best."

Ted just isn't equipped to handle this kind of thing correctly, I don't know why. Frankly, he didn't handle it right when he fired Ernie either (not to mention being unable to do it a whole lot earlier!).

Tommy was terrible. Worse than the guy that mentored him. Busy around the edges but most of his 'good' moves were empty calories (and I said it at the time - making moves around the edges doesn't change anything). Props for the KP move. The Gaff trade got him a play-in birth but Gaff came back down to earth thereafter. Everything else was a sh*tshow. From the car salesman interviews, to the Beal lovefest, the annual screwing up of the draft to trading for modest vets to fit outsized roles in a desperate attempt to be all in for the play-in. Never once did he display a real plan. His next job should be for Eastern Motors, where your job is your credit. He needs to be selling 2016 Passat's & Altima's.

I think Tommy's tactics were fine. Not great, but not awful. He did a pretty good job of improving the talent level with trades. His strategy was the awful part. It looks like he really did believe that the team could be turned around on the fly, which means we never tanked and put ourselves in position to get real franchise-changing talent.

[gambitx777]

Something I was thinking about and there needs to be some maneuvering here.

If Kyle either roots in on a wink wink deal or the clips are cool with doing it and we work the picks out

Wiz :Kyle, Morris, Wright.
For
Clippers: M.Morris, and Gordon, 30, 48, and 2 seconds in 2024, a second in 2027 and second in 2029


Maybe Kyle really wants to be in LA. This sets the clippers up to re boot before they get really **** by penalties. They get big time upgrades over Gordon and the other Morris twin. Kuzma is amazing pg and Kawi insurance and a starting 5 of Morris, Kawi, pg, kuz and zubaic with the bench they have is nasty.


We get a first and a second for kuz
2 seconds for Morris
2 seconds for wright
That's about fair value.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

[nate33]

Something I was thinking about and there needs to be some maneuvering here.

If Kyle either roots in on a wink wink deal or the clips are cool with doing it and we work the picks out

Wiz :Kyle, Morris, Wright.
For
Clippers: M.Morris, and Gordon, 30, 48, and 2 seconds in 2024, a second in 2027 and second in 2029


Maybe Kyle really wants to be in LA. This sets the clippers up to re boot before they get really **** by penalties. They get big time upgrades over Gordon and the other Morris twin. Kuzma is amazing pg and Kawi insurance and a starting 5 of Morris, Kawi, pg, kuz and zubaic with the bench they have is nasty.


We get a first and a second for kuz
2 seconds for Morris
2 seconds for wright
That's about fair value.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

"Wink-wink deals" are a practical impossibility when dealing with any free agent who's price point is undetermined. It could conceivably work if you're talking about a max contract guy whom everyone knows will get the max on the open market, but that's not Kuzma's situation. Kuzma's agent would never agree to a contract on Draft Day without first seeing what the highest bidder is offering in free agency. And if the Clippers can't be sure to land Kuzma at a pre-defined price on Draft Day, they're not going to give up any picks.

Just get this idea out of your mind. We cannot trade Kuzma for 2023 draft picks. Period. End of discussion.

[gambitx777]

Something I was thinking about and there needs to be some maneuvering here.

If Kyle either roots in on a wink wink deal or the clips are cool with doing it and we work the picks out

Wiz :Kyle, Morris, Wright.
For
Clippers: M.Morris, and Gordon, 30, 48, and 2 seconds in 2024, a second in 2027 and second in 2029


Maybe Kyle really wants to be in LA. This sets the clippers up to re boot before they get really **** by penalties. They get big time upgrades over Gordon and the other Morris twin. Kuzma is amazing pg and Kawi insurance and a starting 5 of Morris, Kawi, pg, kuz and zubaic with the bench they have is nasty.


We get a first and a second for kuz
2 seconds for Morris
2 seconds for wright
That's about fair value.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

"Wink-wink deals" are a practical impossibility when dealing with any free agent who's price point is undetermined. It could conceivably work if you're talking about a max contract guy whom everyone knows will get the max on the open market, but that's not Kuzma's situation. Kuzma's agent would never agree to a contract on Draft Day without first seeing what the highest bidder is offering in free agency. And if the Clippers can't be sure to land Kuzma at a pre-defined price on Draft Day, they're not going to give up any picks.

Just get this idea out of your mind. We cannot trade Kuzma for 2023 draft picks. Period. End of discussion.

It's not the end of the discussion at all. The extension rules change this year that mean he can get more money off an extension and if the market for Kuzma isn't what he wants he could totally opt in and kuzma going to his agent and saying I'll opt in if they can get me to team 1,2,3, or 4 is a real possibility. Then we can trade him pretty easily.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

[nate33]

Something I was thinking about and there needs to be some maneuvering here.

If Kyle either roots in on a wink wink deal or the clips are cool with doing it and we work the picks out

Wiz :Kyle, Morris, Wright.
For
Clippers: M.Morris, and Gordon, 30, 48, and 2 seconds in 2024, a second in 2027 and second in 2029


Maybe Kyle really wants to be in LA. This sets the clippers up to re boot before they get really **** by penalties. They get big time upgrades over Gordon and the other Morris twin. Kuzma is amazing pg and Kawi insurance and a starting 5 of Morris, Kawi, pg, kuz and zubaic with the bench they have is nasty.


We get a first and a second for kuz
2 seconds for Morris
2 seconds for wright
That's about fair value.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

"Wink-wink deals" are a practical impossibility when dealing with any free agent who's price point is undetermined. It could conceivably work if you're talking about a max contract guy whom everyone knows will get the max on the open market, but that's not Kuzma's situation. Kuzma's agent would never agree to a contract on Draft Day without first seeing what the highest bidder is offering in free agency. And if the Clippers can't be sure to land Kuzma at a pre-defined price on Draft Day, they're not going to give up any picks.

Just get this idea out of your mind. We cannot trade Kuzma for 2023 draft picks. Period. End of discussion.

It's not the end of the discussion at all. The extension rules change this year that mean he can get more money off an extension and if the market for Kuzma isn't what he wants he could totally opt in and kuzma going to his agent and saying I'll opt in if they can get me to team 1,2,3, or 4 is a real possibility. Then we can trade him pretty easily.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

Kuzma's deadline for his player option is June 21st. He will opt out because the rules that exist on June 21st do not allow him to sign an extension for anything more than 120% of his current salary (which would be just $15.6M).

When Kuzma opts out, he is a free agent. There will be no extending him because he is not under contract anymore. We will have no advantage with him at all because he won't be "ours" anymore. All we will have is access to the Bird Rights cap exception, allowing us to offer him more than the MLE once free agency hits (which could obviously lead to a S&T).

[gambitx777]

"Wink-wink deals" are a practical impossibility when dealing with any free agent who's price point is undetermined. It could conceivably work if you're talking about a max contract guy whom everyone knows will get the max on the open market, but that's not Kuzma's situation. Kuzma's agent would never agree to a contract on Draft Day without first seeing what the highest bidder is offering in free agency. And if the Clippers can't be sure to land Kuzma at a pre-defined price on Draft Day, they're not going to give up any picks.

Just get this idea out of your mind. We cannot trade Kuzma for 2023 draft picks. Period. End of discussion.

It's not the end of the discussion at all. The extension rules change this year that mean he can get more money off an extension and if the market for Kuzma isn't what he wants he could totally opt in and kuzma going to his agent and saying I'll opt in if they can get me to team 1,2,3, or 4 is a real possibility. Then we can trade him pretty easily.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

Kuzma's deadline for his player option is June 21st. He will opt out because the rules that exist on June 21st do not allow him to sign an extension for anything more than 120% of his current salary (which would be just $15.6M).

When Kuzma opts out, he is a free agent. There will be no extending him because he is not under contract anymore. We will have no advantage with him at all because he won't be "ours" anymore. All we will have is access to the Bird Rights cap exception, allowing us to sign him for more than the MLE (which could obviously lead to a S&T).

All I'm saying it it can happen. If the clippers want him and know they can't afford him other wise. Kuzma might say if you trade me here I'll opt in and he can be traded before he opts out. The clippers might pay for that, it's possible. I'm not saying it's likely. the smart thing to do would be opt out and get the biggest deal you can but people do these things. Look at noel and schrouder.

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[nate33]

It's not the end of the discussion at all. The extension rules change this year that mean he can get more money off an extension and if the market for Kuzma isn't what he wants he could totally opt in and kuzma going to his agent and saying I'll opt in if they can get me to team 1,2,3, or 4 is a real possibility. Then we can trade him pretty easily.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

Kuzma's deadline for his player option is June 21st. He will opt out because the rules that exist on June 21st do not allow him to sign an extension for anything more than 120% of his current salary (which would be just $15.6M).

When Kuzma opts out, he is a free agent. There will be no extending him because he is not under contract anymore. We will have no advantage with him at all because he won't be "ours" anymore. All we will have is access to the Bird Rights cap exception, allowing us to sign him for more than the MLE (which could obviously lead to a S&T).

All I'm saying it it can happen. If the clippers want him and know they can't afford him other wise. Kuzma might say if you trade me here I'll opt in and he can be traded before he opts out. The clippers might pay for that, it's possible. I'm not saying it's likely. the smart thing to do would be opt out and get the biggest deal you can but people do these things. Look at noel and schrouder.

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Sorry. It's absolutely not happening. 100% certainty.

[payitforward]

Tommy was terrible. Worse than the guy that mentored him. Busy around the edges but most of his 'good' moves were empty calories (and I said it at the time - making moves around the edges doesn't change anything). Props for the KP move. The Gaff trade got him a play-in birth but Gaff came back down to earth thereafter. Everything else was a sh*tshow. From the car salesman interviews, to the Beal lovefest, the annual screwing up of the draft to trading for modest vets to fit outsized roles in a desperate attempt to be all in for the play-in. Never once did he display a real plan. His next job should be for Eastern Motors, where your job is your credit. He needs to be selling 2016 Passat's & Altima's.

Billshut. Pure & simple.
&, what's worse, mean-spirited too.

Especially the "around the edges" claim, which really makes no sense. The only guy he inherited whom he didn't get rid of was Beal, & I don't think you expressed any interest whatever in trading Beal until after the '21-22 season!

Here's a list of the guys on the team at the end of Ernie's last season:

Bradley Beal, Troy Brown, Thomas Bryant, Sam Dekker, Jeff Green, Dwight Howard, Wesley Johnson, Ian Mahinmi, Jordan McRae, Jabari Parker, Bobby Portis, Tomas Satoransky, Jason Smith, & John Wall.

8 of those 14 guys (Dekker, Green, Howard, Johnson, Mahinmi, Parker, Portis, & Smith) had zero value for one reason or another: i.e. we would neither want to keep them nor trade them for anything of any value whatever.

1 of the 14 (Bryant), suffered a subsequent injury that prevented us from getting any value from him (either as a player or in a trade).

The other five were Beal (who's still with us), Brown, McRae, Sato & Wall.
He got something for McRae who then fell out of the league immediately, & he got great value for Brown, Sato & Wall.

He made a bunch of clever moves to put a team on the floor for '19-20 season: Bertans for nothing, Wagner for nothing, GPII for nothing, Mathews for nothing, etc.

He made a series of brilliant trades: the Wall trade was outstanding, the Westbrook trade was even better, the Porzingis trade was beyond brilliant (especially for getting us out of one of his errors -- the long-term deal he'd given Bertans. A deal which you did not criticize, btw).

Tommy's problem wasn't that he lacked "a plan." It was that...

a. He bollixed up the 2019 draft -- only... you didn't disagree w/ him picking Rui. OTOH, you would certainly have taken Bol Bol over Admiral! That's true enough.

b. He didn't take the R1 pick he was offered for Bertans. I was apoplectic about that! I don't recall your take.

c. He re-signed Bertans to a ridiculous deal -- see above.

d. He didn't pick Haliburton in 2020 -- & in this case, you were absolutely on the money about the right thing to do!

e. He made an ok but probably sub-optimal R1 pick in 2021 (seems like Murphy or 1-2 other guys might have been better). Now, in that case (unlike 2020), you wrote that you would have picked Sharife Cooper w/ our #16 pick. The kid went at 48. I'm still waiting for the day when you write that it could be, just maybe, that you were wrong in that single instance!

f. His '22 draft was... pathetic.

Was Tommy a good GM? No, obviously he was not a good GM. That said, there is still no reason to kick him on the way out the door. No reason to be mean-spirited.

To do it on a Wizards board is just giving in to an impulse. For Ted to do it is a serious piece of bad behavior.

[nate33]

Tommy was terrible. Worse than the guy that mentored him. Busy around the edges but most of his 'good' moves were empty calories (and I said it at the time - making moves around the edges doesn't change anything). Props for the KP move. The Gaff trade got him a play-in birth but Gaff came back down to earth thereafter. Everything else was a sh*tshow. From the car salesman interviews, to the Beal lovefest, the annual screwing up of the draft to trading for modest vets to fit outsized roles in a desperate attempt to be all in for the play-in. Never once did he display a real plan. His next job should be for Eastern Motors, where your job is your credit. He needs to be selling 2016 Passat's & Altima's.

Billshut. Pure & simple.
&, what's worse, mean-spirited too.

Especially the "around the edges" claim, which really makes no sense. The only guy he inherited whom he didn't get rid of was Beal, & I don't think you expressed any interest whatever in trading Beal until after the '21-22 season!

Here's a list of the guys on the team at the end of Ernie's last season:

Bradley Beal, Troy Brown, Thomas Bryant, Sam Dekker, Jeff Green, Dwight Howard, Wesley Johnson, Ian Mahinmi, Jordan McRae, Jabari Parker, Bobby Portis, Tomas Satoransky, Jason Smith, & John Wall.

8 of those 14 guys (Dekker, Green, Howard, Johnson, Mahinmi, Parker, Portis, & Smith) had zero value for one reason or another: i.e. we would neither want to keep them nor trade them for anything of any value whatever.

1 of the 14 (Bryant), suffered a subsequent injury that prevented us from getting any value from him (either as a player or in a trade).

The other five were Beal (who's still with us), Brown, McRae, Sato & Wall.
He got something for McRae who then fell out of the league immediately, & he got great value for Brown, Sato & Wall.

He made a bunch of clever moves to put a team on the floor for '19-20 season: Bertans for nothing, Wagner for nothing, GPII for nothing, Mathews for nothing, etc.

He made a series of brilliant trades: the Wall trade was outstanding, the Westbrook trade was even better, the Porzingis trade was beyond brilliant (especially for getting us out of one of his errors -- the long-term deal he'd given Bertans. A deal which you did not criticize, btw).

Tommy's problem wasn't that he lacked "a plan." It was that...

a. He bollixed up the 2019 draft -- only... you didn't disagree w/ him picking Rui. OTOH, you would certainly have taken Bol Bol over Admiral! That's true enough.

b. He didn't take the R1 pick he was offered for Bertans. I was apoplectic about that! I don't recall your take.

c. He re-signed Bertans to a ridiculous deal -- see above.

d. He didn't pick Haliburton in 2020 -- & in this case, you were absolutely on the money about the right thing to do!

e. He made an ok but probably sub-optimal R1 pick in 2021 (seems like Murphy or 1-2 other guys might have been better). Now, in that case (unlike 2020), you wrote that you would have picked Sharife Cooper w/ our #16 pick. The kid went at 48. I'm still waiting for the day when you write that it could be, just maybe, that you were wrong in that single instance!

f. His '22 draft was... pathetic.

Was Tommy a good GM? No, obviously he was not a good GM. That said, there is still no reason to kick him on the way out the door. No reason to be mean-spirited.

To do it on a Wizards board is just giving in to an impulse. For Ted to do it is a serious piece of bad behavior.

If you think about it, things might look entirely different if not for the one crucial mistake of drafting Avdija over Haliburton.

If we drafted Haliburton, we also would not have made the KCP for Morris/Barton trade. So our team this year would have been:

PG Haliburton/Wright
SG Beal/KCP
SF KCP/Kispert
PF Kuzma/Rui
C Porzingis/Gafford

That's probably a .500 team.

And I'm getting into wild speculation here, but it's possible that Rui is a better player with Haliburton dropping him dimes and him not looking over his shoulder for Avdija to replace him whenever he makes a mistake. Could we have unlocked "LA Rui" a bit earlier? And with Haliburton as a top tier playmaker, maybe Kuzma settles down his shot selection a bit and becomes a more efficient player.

[payitforward]

@nate -- I love it! & I think that one difference alone makes us better than a .500 team.
Haliburton's performance in his 3d season has catapulted him into a true star -- a superstar if it continues!

Now think about this: what if we take Boston's offer of a late R1 pick in that same draft in return for Bertans -- & we pick Desmond Bane. Then we trade up for Tillman instead of letting Memphis do it!

We are the best young team in the league.
Instead of being fired, Tommy is NBA Executive of the year!