Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

[Benjammin]

I don't see Nene as anywhere near a 26 a game scorer but 18-20 is certainly possible at good efficiency which is pretty darn good for a big in today's NBA.

[Ruzious]

I would suggest you actually read a post before you quote it. You obviously are not following the conversation at all.

I just re-read the "conversation". You didn't get Ruzious's point the times he made it and you didn't get it when I made it either.

I was actually adding to his point, and I certainly believe the next reasonable point you make will be your first. Fortunately, I won't have to hold my breath for that to occur. It's like slowing down to see a car wreck, sometimes you can't help yourself even when you know you shouldn't.

He brought up Nick Young as an example, thinking that Nicks scoring increased after Gil got dealt. In reality the only thing that increased is his minutes. He was scoring at the same rate when Gil was here so the comparison doesn't work.

Since you decided to chime in let's hear what you think Nene will average if Melo gets dealt.

Billups had his career high scoring year playing next to Melo. Melo and Karl aren't the reason Nene averages only 1 made jumper per game.

Ben was obviously correct on all points.

[tontoz]

Ben was obviously correct on all points.

Why did you bring up Nick Young? What point were you trying to make there?

And when exactly has George Karl EVER held back a great scorer?

Here are some comments from other posters on the player comparison board.

Nene does not have the Amare's mobility and mid-range J as a scorer. Something that will not make Nene a 20ppg scorer in his NBA career.

Amar'e is clearly the better offensive player.

If we're talking about pure offense than Amare's an all time great.

Amare pretty easily. I like Nene though. I voted him as my western conference all-star C this year.


I'm starting to understand how efficiency stats work now. Nene is a mega-efficient player, but at a modest usage, at a modest volume, and in somewhat limited minutes. He's also only the second or third option on his team.

Stoudemire is simply an efficient player, but at a crazy usage, at elite volume, and in superstar minutes. He's the first option on his team. Obviously, Stoudemire is more valuable statistically.


This is why players like Horace Grant and Nene and Tyson Chandler have insanely good efficiency numbers such as offensive rating, offensive win shares, etc. They do their SIMPLE job at an elite level. The superstar offensive players like Jordan, Melo, and Nowitzki do a far more difficult job. Their main function is at a different level, as evidenced by their greater volume, usage, and overall responsibility (as seen from the eye test). Nene, Grant, and Chandler don't need to take the offensive risks that superstars take to carry their teams. The middle-job guys only need to play efficiently, stay within the scope of their skills, and play off the mega-stars.

Amare is a much better offensive player

Like what I said, if Nene is a capable night-in night-out 20 ppg scorer, he should have done it regardless of who the PG is.

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[Ruzious]

tontos, everyone has a talent. Your talent is the ability to either misunderstand or misrepresent other people's positions - or both. Either that or you are an idiot. I give you the benefit of the doubt there, but you seem obsessed enough to prove me wrong.

[TGW]

I actually agree with Tontoz -- Nene has a limited offensive game. More touches might get him more points, but with much worse efficiency. He's not a very talented offensive player, other than being a very good finisher around the rim. But he's not a guy you can feed the ball to in the post, and expect consistent points.

[Ruzious]

I actually agree with Tontoz -- Nene has a limited offensive game. More touches might get him more points, but with much worse efficiency. He's not a very talented offensive player, other than being a very good finisher around the rim. But he's not a guy you can feed the ball to in the post, and expect consistent points.

I'm not sure how you could watch Denver play and conclude he's not a talented offensive player, but you're entitled to your opinion. And I think we've gone a lot farther with this conversation than necessary. Time to move on.

[nate33]

This debate between Ruzious and tontoz is actually kinda funny. Both guys are knowledgable and bright posters, and both guys are stubborn as hell and cannot accept losing any arguments. This might go on forever

Looking back to where the Amare/Nene comparison started, I think it's worth noting that Ruzious never actually said that Nene can score as much as Amare. Ruzious said that he's efficient like Amare and implied that he could shoulder a greater portion of the scoring load than he does now. I don't really thing that tontoz disagrees. But tontoz has got it in his head that Ruzious has said that Nene is just as good of a scorer as Amare so he's trying to refute it.

Basically, both of you are right. Nene is a very good, very efficient scorer who can certainly score more than he is scoring now. But he isn't as good of a scorer as Amare. Amare happens to be the most prolific scoring big man in the game since prime Shaq.

[tontoz]

This debate between Ruzious and tontoz is actually kinda funny. Both guys are knowledgable and bright posters, and both guys are stubborn as hell and cannot accept losing any arguments. This might go on forever

Guilty as charged.

[Ruzious]

This debate between Ruzious and tontoz is actually kinda funny. Both guys are knowledgable and bright posters, and both guys are stubborn as hell and cannot accept losing any arguments. This might go on forever

Guilty as charged.

I agree.

[tontoz]

tontos, everyone has a talent. Your talent is the ability to either misunderstand or misrepresent other people's positions - or both. Either that or you are an idiot. I give you the benefit of the doubt there, but you seem obsessed enough to prove me wrong.

Here are your exact words.

The best way to answer your question is to reverse it. If Nene started his career with Phoenix and was now on New York, then yes - I think his stats would be very similar to what Amare has put up. Nene has not been given the opportunities that Amare has.

How exactly am i misrepresenting your position?


Nene might be able to average 20 in the DLeague but it will never happen in the NBA.

[Ruzious]

tontos, everyone has a talent. Your talent is the ability to either misunderstand or misrepresent other people's positions - or both. Either that or you are an idiot. I give you the benefit of the doubt there, but you seem obsessed enough to prove me wrong.

Here are your exact words.

The best way to answer your question is to reverse it. If Nene started his career with Phoenix and was now on New York, then yes - I think his stats would be very similar to what Amare has put up. Nene has not been given the opportunities that Amare has.

How exactly am i misrepresenting your position?


Nene might be able to average 20 in the DLeague but it will never happen in the NBA.

See Benjamin's series of posts in the last page.

tontoz, we disagree. I'm fine with that. That should end the conversation.

[tontoz]

Speaking of Benjamin i definitely agree with what he said here.

"I don't see Nene as anywhere near a 26 a game "

[Ruzious]

You mean this Benjamin post?

"I don't see Nene as anywhere near a 26 a game "

I definitely agree with that.

I don't either, tontoz. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the nubers of a typical Amare season - around 21 points a game, 9 rebounds, shooting 54% from the field, getting 8 FT attempts a game and making 75% of them, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 assist. That's about what I think he could get if he was the number 1 option on an average team.

[nate33]

Two part trade:

Trade 1:
Washington trades: Blatche + 2011 2nd
Indy trades: P.George + Posey

Indy adds a PF without hurting their cap space this summer.

Trade 2:
Washington trades: Yi + Thornton + Howard
LA Clippers trade: Kaman

The Clippers dump Kaman's $12.7M salary and allow Jordan to take over as full time center.

We dump Blatche while picking up a talented young swing man. We also get to rent Kaman for a year who can provide some beef in the paint and some better defense.

PG Wall/Hinrich
SG Young/Hinrich
SF George/Posey
PF Lewis/Booker
C Kaman/McGee/Seraphin

In the summer, we draft a PF (Sullinger, Williams or Kanter) and bump Lewis up to SF with George backing up both SG and SF. We actually end up clearing even more cap room in summer 2012 with Blatche off the books.

[tontoz]

You mean this Benjamin post?

"I don't see Nene as anywhere near a 26 a game "

I definitely agree with that.

I don't either, tontoz. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the nubers of a typical Amare season - around 21 points a game, 9 rebounds, shooting 54% from the field, getting 8 FT attempts a game and making 75% of them, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 assist. That's about what I think he could get if he was the number 1 option on an average team.

When you said put up numbers similar to Amare i naturally assumed that you were referring to his current production. This isn't the first time he has averagd 26 either.

Nene has been in the league 9 years with a career average of 12. If he had the ability to average 20 ppg he would have shown it by now. George Karl has over 1000 victories as a coach and he didn't get there by stiffling players offensive games.

If anything players numbers under Karl are inflated due to his run and gun style (just like the Suns, current NY and GS). Nene gets a lot of points on the break by outrunning opposing big men.

[Ruzious]

You mean this Benjamin post?

"I don't see Nene as anywhere near a 26 a game "

I definitely agree with that.

I don't either, tontoz. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the nubers of a typical Amare season - around 21 points a game, 9 rebounds, shooting 54% from the field, getting 8 FT attempts a game and making 75% of them, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 assist. That's about what I think he could get if he was the number 1 option on an average team.

When you said put up numbers similar to Amare i naturally assumed that you were referring to his current production. This isn't the first time he has averagd 26 either.

Nene has been in the league 9 years with a career average of 12. If he had the ability to average 20 ppg he would have shown it by now. George Karl has over 1000 victories as a coach and he didn't get there by stiffling players offensive games.

If anything players numbers under Karl are inflated due to his run and gun style (just like the Suns, current NY and GS). Nene gets a lot of points on the break by outrunning opposing big men.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, tontoz. I don't think Karl has held him back to the detriment of the team. It's about being the number 1 option in the offense.

[GhostsOfGil]

Two part trade:

Trade 1:
Washington trades: Blatche + 2011 2nd
Indy trades: P.George + Posey

Indy adds a PF without hurting their cap space this summer.

Trade 2:
Washington trades: Yi + Thornton + Howard
LA Clippers trade: Kaman

The Clippers dump Kaman's $12.7M salary and allow Jordan to take over as full time center.

We dump Blatche while picking up a talented young swing man. We also get to rent Kaman for a year who can provide some beef in the paint and some better defense.

PG Wall/Hinrich
SG Young/Hinrich
SF George/Posey
PF Lewis/Booker
C Kaman/McGee/Seraphin

In the summer, we draft a PF (Sullinger, Williams or Kanter) and bump Lewis up to SF with George backing up both SG and SF. We actually end up clearing even more cap room in summer 2012 with Blatche off the books.

one of the best trade scenarios ive seen all year. better yet move booker to starting pf next to kaman, allowing lewis to play sf.

[tontoz]

Coaches are going to give the number 1 option designation to the best offensive player. Amare is going to be the number 1 option on pretty much any team.

Anyway, no biggie.

The ironic thing is that i am a fan of Nene and i don't think Nene's strength has even been mentioned in this thread. I think he is one of the best man defenders in the league at the C spot. He is one of the few guys i would be comfortable with defending Dwight 1 on 1.

When Nene missed a season due to a knee injury the Hawks had the chance to trade Harrington for him straight up. This trade offer was confirmed in a season ticket holders meeting. Harrington was going to be a UFA that summer and I argued that the trade was a complete no brainer even though Nene was out hurt.

I felt that it was worth the risk. The Hawks would have had Nene's restricted rights. It didn't happen and i was seriously pissed. The Hawks ended up trading Harrington for a 1st round pick that turned into Acie Law. SMH

[20MexicanosIn1Van]

Two part trade:

Trade 1:
Washington trades: Blatche + 2011 2nd
Indy trades: P.George + Posey

Indy adds a PF without hurting their cap space this summer.

Trade 2:
Washington trades: Yi + Thornton + Howard
LA Clippers trade: Kaman

The Clippers dump Kaman's $12.7M salary and allow Jordan to take over as full time center.

We dump Blatche while picking up a talented young swing man. We also get to rent Kaman for a year who can provide some beef in the paint and some better defense.

PG Wall/Hinrich
SG Young/Hinrich
SF George/Posey
PF Lewis/Booker
C Kaman/McGee/Seraphin

In the summer, we draft a PF (Sullinger, Williams or Kanter) and bump Lewis up to SF with George backing up both SG and SF. We actually end up clearing even more cap room in summer 2012 with Blatche off the books.

I don't think the Clips nor the Pacers do those trades. Kaman is a borderline all-star and Indy is high on Paul George. If either team does accept, Washington needs to gobble those trades up.

[nate33]

Trade 1:
Washington trades: Blatche + 2011 2nd
Indy trades: P.George + Posey

Indy adds a PF without hurting their cap space this summer.

Trade 2:
Washington trades: Yi + Thornton + Howard
LA Clippers trade: Kaman

The Clippers dump Kaman's $12.7M salary and allow Jordan to take over as full time center.

I don't think the Clips nor the Pacers do those trades. Kaman is a borderline all-star and Indy is high on Paul George. If either team does accept, Washington needs to gobble those trades up.

You are probably right on the Indy trade. It's tough to see them parting with George just for Blatche. The only rationale I can think of is that there aren't any high quality PF's available in free agency this year, and that's the position Indy needs most. They might not find anybody better than Blatche. I tried to sweeten it a bit with our high 2nd rounder, but that's probably still not enough to get it done. If we had a first round pick in the mid 20's to trade, it might be about right.

I think that Clippers trade is feasible though. Kaman hasn't played all-star caliber ball in a few years now, and few teams are going to want to pay his salary with the new CBA looming.