Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing

[Kanyewest]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1743702-washington-wizards-10-worst-roster-moves-of-the-past-10-years?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=washington-wizards

What a terrible article. The author has no idea what he is talking about.

He ranks the Arenas for Lewis trade as the 3rd worst in EG's tenure. That's preposterous. Arenas did absolutely nothing during the last 3.5 seasons of his contract (post trade) while being paid $70M. By making the trade, we ended up paying roughly the same amount of money over the same period of time, but instead of a very small amount of horrific production from Arenas, we got 1.5 seasons of mediocre role-player production from Lewis plus 2 full seasons of quality, starting-caliber production out of Okafor and Ariza.

He ranks the Jamison for Ilguauskas trade as the 7th worst, when in fact, Jamison was horrible for Cleveland and Ernie saved $15M while tanking and landing Wall. That was maybe Ernie's 2nd best trade of his tenure.

He ranks the Eddie Jordan firing as the 5th worst when all Jordan did in the ensuing years was fail spectacularly as the head coach for Philly (turning a 41-win team into a 27-win team) and then fail as the offensive coordinator for the Lakers, leading them to miss the playoffs for the first time in the Kobe era.

He ranks the Vesely signing as merely the 12th worst move when it was most likely one of his top 3 worst moves. Vesely is a spectacular bust. Of the last 100 top 10 picks, I count just 10 guys who could be considered busts of the same magnitude (Rivers, W.Johnson, J.Alexander, Thabeet, Morrison, S.Williams, O'Bryant, Sene, Araujo, and J.Flynn).

He doesn't even mention other horrible moves like trading a future 1st for Crittenton, or trading away 2nd round pick for cash when Blair was on the board.

At least the author got #1 right.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Personally, I agree wholeheartedly on firing EJ as a bad move.

I finally started to criticize EJ at the very end for not playing Haywood (and even Blatche) when size and defense were needed in the playoffs. I thought he had a vendetta against Haywood and too much love for Etan Thomas. EJ was a really poor defensive coach. The dumbest thing I thought he did was to play Arenas over 40 minutes each of the first five games of the 2007-2008 season, after Arenas' second surgery. I wanted him to pace Arenas' minutes. (Ernie Grunfeld IMO was complicit and so was the Wizards' medical staff in speeding Gilbert's demise by not monitoring and limiting his minutes.) That said, I think EJ was a good coach. Eddie was calm under fire, a players' coach, loyal to his players, a gentleman on and off the court, and one helluva good offensive mind. He got the most out of very little talent. He had a way of coming back when he seemed to be down and out. I LIKE EJ. To this day I root for him to succeed.

Firing Jordan after a playoffs where the coach basically catered to Arenas and lost in 5 games, and then started the next season 1-11, after Arenas had his big contract was flat WRONG.

All the Wizards did was stink under Ed Tapscott and fail MISERABLY under Flip Saunders. EJ took the same guys to the playoffs that Flip went 26-56 with.

How Eddie Jordan failed in Philadelphia has NOTHING to do with his getting guys like Larry Hughes a huge contract after the Wizards. Roger Mason got paid by the Spurs after his success under EJ and the Wizards. Jamison and Butler played so many minutes and got so many points off of EJ/Arenas, that Eddie Jordan has to get some of the credit for them being all stars. Jordon almost coached an all star game (which meant the Wizards would have been at the top of the East or second with another coach who already coached the AS game). Injuries robbed him of that opportunity. Jordan even won a playoff series--something NOBODY HAS DONE IN DC IN 35 years. He won with Jared Jeffries starting, before Caron Butler became a Wizard.

EJ gets discredited and his success is often said to be because of Arenas. I think he EJ DID BEST COACHING WITHOUT ARENAS. I shout that because they made the playoffs the season Gil sat out. That was beautiful basketball. DeShawn Stevenson, Antonio Daniels, and Roger Mason Jr. were great together in the regular season. Jamison averaged 32 and 10 in a playoff series.

I think Grunfeld and Abe never had any defensive talent or ample bigs under EJs watch, aside from Haywood, Jeffries, Hughes, and Stevenson.

I think Eddie Jordan is a better coach than Ernie Grunfeld is a GM. Not even close.

Randy Wittman in some respects reminds me of EJ. He seems to have common sense. Wittman is defensive oriented. EJ was offensive oriented. I respect both coaches a lot. I do think Eddie had lost the team when he was fired but I remember some details. There were ALWAYS INJURIES UNDER EJ or his record would have been much better. Gil got hurt. Caron Butler was hurt, even in the playoffs. When he was fired, Javale McGee was STARTING C, way back in 2008.

Eddie Jordan gets talked about negatively in this forum but I think those of you who do are wrong. I don't care if he won 43 games, or 42--he was a darn sight better than Saunders as Wizards coach. He didn't throw players under the bus. He didn't cry about disrespect from players like Collins (who did have his hands pretty much tied by MJ). He wasn't the one who drafted (later) guys like Vesely instead of guys like Faried or Kawhi Leonard.

That guy is still GM, and a favorite of the owner.

[closg00]

CCJ - EJ did coach an all-star and the East lost that year

[nate33]

CCJ, I think it's fair to argue that EJ was better than (or not significantly worse than) Flip. But that's damning with faint praise. Flip was pretty bad here and was not cut out to coach a rebuilding team.

EJ definitely did his best work when the Wizards made the playoffs and took Cleveland to 6 without Arenas, but that was really a one-time thing. I don't think EJ was particularly good any other season, and whatever innovation he is credited for offensively is completely offset by his horrible defensive strategies (and overall attention to details).

I've said this before and I'll say it again, EJ never really impressed me with his offensive system. Yeah, he got the Wizards to score points, but the only way it really clicked was if he put at least 3 dynamic offensive threats on the floor. Dynamic offensive threats who are also good defenders are exceedingly rare, so any system that depends on playing 3 dynamic offensive players is likely to result in bad defense. I have much more respect for coaches who coax good defense out of having just one or two good offensive players but put in an offensive system that funnels the action through those one or two offensive players while putting the role players in a position to succeed. The championship Mavs are a great example. Or the San Antonio Spurs (who rarely have Parker, Ginobili and Duncan on the court together).

I like Randy Wittman much better than EJ. I think Wittman's defensive focus is going to build a team that is much more consistent and will prove to be more able to withstand injuries. Wall must stay healthy because he is the offensive catalyst, but everyone else is somewhat replaceable.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

nate, I respect your opinion about EJ's offense, because I've learned you've played PG yourself. A lot of people don't like the Princeton sets, which I am NOT an expert of. I know Dat hated what he called "weave and heave".

I think no matter who he trotted out on the court, EJ figured a way for them to score. Jeffries even played some SG. Coach Jordan was innovative IMO. What got the Wizards over during the "big three" era, besides Arenas' greatness, was their FT disparity. Those guys got to the line a ton. They basically used their sets and the way the game is officiated regarding "stars" to live at the FT line. That didn't work so well against the Cavs in the playoffs because of Lebron being on the other side.

What we think as Wizards fans is just one set of opinions about EJ. Here's what some others who have even more experience with his coaching think:

http://www.scarletknights.com/basketbal ... hPMrBafcU0

WHAT THEY’RE SAYING ABOUT EDDIE JORDAN
David Stern, Rutgers graduate and NBA Commissioner: “Eddie is a great choice to lead Rutgers during this important transition for the program. His knowledge and passion for the game, coupled with his extraordinary ability to teach, will serve the university well as he returns to his basketball roots at RU.”

Dick Vitale, College basketball analyst and former Rutgers assistant coach: “Eddie Jordan is a grand slam of a hire. He brings a special passion and pride to the position. His love for Rutgers will be felt by everyone associated with the Scarlet Knights. His NBA contacts and experience will be a major help on the recruiting trail.”

Jason Kidd, 10-time NBA All-Star point guard: “Rutgers picked the right coach in Eddie Jordan. He’s the perfect basketball mind and person to turn that program around.”

Kenyon Martin, All-Star and 13-year NBA veteran forward: “I have the utmost respect for Eddie, as a basketball coach, player and a man. He is very deserving of this job and I have all the confidence in the world that he will be successful.”

Jeff Van Gundy, NBA analyst and former Rutgers assistant coach: “Eddie is the right hire at the right time for Rutgers University. His combination of basketball knowledge, his ability to relate to all sorts (of people) and his humble demeanor will allow him to unite Rutgers behind its basketball team. (Rutgers) will be proud of the product he puts on the floor.”

Tom Young, Rutgers Athletics Hall of Fame Head Coach (1973-85): “This is the best thing that has happened to Rutgers since (Jordan) took them to the Final Four. Eddie will succeed at Rutgers because he is a good guy and he understands the game of basketball. From day one, Eddie was respected as a point guard and could communicate well with his teammates. That has helped him in the coaching profession. Some people worry that because he has been a NBA coach for so long, that he won’t be able to get into the collegiate scene. That is the furthest thing from the truth. He will not have any problems adjusting to the X’s and O’s of college basketball.”

Bob Wenzel, College basketball analyst and former Rutgers head coach (1988-97): “I’m thrilled that Rutgers made a great choice in Eddie Jordan. It’s a home run. He’s one of the most endearing people to ever play at Rutgers. In our time together, he was a great assistant. He has a wealth of basketball knowledge with all of his NBA experience.”

Hollis Copeland, Former teammate and Rutgers All-American: “I think very highly of Eddie. He’s been a head coach of three NBA teams, as well as an NBA assistant coach, college coach and AAU coach. He’s in a position to completely change the complexion of the Rutgers basketball program. It’s a marriage made in heaven. When you look at that (1976) Final Four team, we were a family. We haven’t changed since then and we still stay in touch to share our views. That’s the attitude he will bring. The same attitude we had way back when. He’s a man of high moral fiber. There’s a difference between players just respecting you because you’re the coach and liking you. I think players will like him, and that’s important in a program like Rutgers.”

Phil Sellers, Former teammate and Rutgers First Team All-American: “I can’t express how much this means. Rutgers has a guy who understands what it means to have respect for others. Eddie knows how to approach people. He’s been fortunate to be around some great coaches in his career. Having been his roommate for a couple of years (at Rutgers), to see how far Eddie has come is a great feeling. He’s a hard worker. Anybody who has been associated with Eddie knows that. When he gets his teeth into something, he focuses in. Hard work brings success, so he can only be successful.”

Pete Carill, Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Head Coach: “Eddie Jordan is the best around, anywhere to turn Rutgers into what it could be.”

I like EJ, too.

nate, you could be right to prefer Wittman's coaching. I think EJ would have been a better coach with a healthy Nene or Okafor on the roster. But I do agree, Randy's defensive approach will ultimately get more wins. However, even though I like Randy the one area that I am pretty sure EJ trumps him is in the ability to get along with virtually all of his players. He had a dust up with Kwame Brown but it stayed in the locker room. I think a coach like Wittman would like a tough guy like Kenyon Martin, too. I don't think Wittman has any "tenderness" or compassion for a kid like Jan Vesely. EJ could coach Vesely up IMO. He's not really soft but more, he's smooth. Randy Wittman seems like he scares the hell out of Vesely to me. (Not meaning to be a hypocrite, but I've got more Wittman in me with my sons at times than I should IMO. Tough love at times is needed, just not most of the time.) I dunno, but I think EJ was more psychologist than coach at times. Even more than that, EJ IMO is like a favorite teacher. He knows how to keep people motivated without humiliating them.

If EJ respected defensive principles and didn't rigidly adhere to some offensive tendencies, he'd be the best of coaches IMO.

[Ruzious]

I also like Eddie. He is what he is - a motivator - with quirks (the not playing Haywood much thing). Surround him with X's and O's guys and a supportive GM/AD, and he's a very good coach.

[Dat2U]

Comparing Randy Wittman & Eddie Jordan as coaches would make for a fair debate.

You'd be comparing two guys with very ugly winning percentages.

Eddie Jordan 257-343 .428 winning percentage
Randy Wittman 147-291 .336 winning percentage

I'd say it's a push, Wittman never had Gil in his prime. Witt has been better here than in Minnesota but hasn't exactly inspired greatness in DC.

Praise for either could only be faint at best.

Whining about Eddie's firing is like complaining about the paint color on the walls of a condemned house. You really think keeping Eddie would have made any difference CCJ? In my opinion it was long overdue. Eddie basically wasted Gil's 3 years of elite play and good health. Any offensive gain that came from Eddie's system was undone by the lack of attention placed on defense. Any success we had during the entire Gil era was undermined by our defensive effort and unfocused play. So I have trouble looking back longingly over the EJ era which we were basically first round fodder for LeBron.

[Dat2U]

I like Eddie as a person too but lets be honest, the man wasn't even a good junior varsity HS coach.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I never said keeping EJ would make a difference. I said I agree with the article that firing was not a good move.

I also think your reflexive dislike is emotional. Just like much of what I post.

Right after the playoffs. Gil's got the big money that Abe/EG couldn't wait to give him. They fire the guy. They hire celebrated coach, Flip Saunders. THEY STINK FOR YEARS.

EJ stayed coach of the Wizards 5 years and 12 games. He was in the playoffs 4 of them.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/coa ... ed01c.html

TBH, yeah, Dat. Since you mention it there's no way they would have taken a giant step backwards all season as they did with Tapscott had Eddie been respected enough to finish his one season. Ted and EG IMO got just what they deserved after firing EJ. MISERY.

Flip was 2-15 after two full seasons as Wizard coach when they ran him.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/coa ... fl99c.html

Whatever the Wizards are doing these last couple seasons, and since Wittman took over as coach has been slowly but surely leading to recovery. I don't want to vilify Saunders. I don't need to praise EJ. I do think the common thread in all of this has been Ernie Grunfeld, the guy who ironically still has a job.

And the funniest part of all is the Wizards seem to be heading toward a very successful year. Go figure.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I like Eddie as a person too but lets be honest, the man wasn't even a good junior varsity HS coach.

One opinion.

Others (reposted) below:

http://www.scarletknights.com/basketbal ... hPMrBafcU0

WHAT THEY’RE SAYING ABOUT EDDIE JORDAN
David Stern, Rutgers graduate and NBA Commissioner: “Eddie is a great choice to lead Rutgers during this important transition for the program. His knowledge and passion for the game, coupled with his extraordinary ability to teach, will serve the university well as he returns to his basketball roots at RU.”

Dick Vitale, College basketball analyst and former Rutgers assistant coach: “Eddie Jordan is a grand slam of a hire. He brings a special passion and pride to the position. His love for Rutgers will be felt by everyone associated with the Scarlet Knights. His NBA contacts and experience will be a major help on the recruiting trail.”

Jason Kidd, 10-time NBA All-Star point guard: “Rutgers picked the right coach in Eddie Jordan. He’s the perfect basketball mind and person to turn that program around.”

Kenyon Martin, All-Star and 13-year NBA veteran forward: “I have the utmost respect for Eddie, as a basketball coach, player and a man. He is very deserving of this job and I have all the confidence in the world that he will be successful.”

Jeff Van Gundy, NBA analyst and former Rutgers assistant coach: “Eddie is the right hire at the right time for Rutgers University. His combination of basketball knowledge, his ability to relate to all sorts (of people) and his humble demeanor will allow him to unite Rutgers behind its basketball team. (Rutgers) will be proud of the product he puts on the floor.”

Tom Young, Rutgers Athletics Hall of Fame Head Coach (1973-85): “This is the best thing that has happened to Rutgers since (Jordan) took them to the Final Four. Eddie will succeed at Rutgers because he is a good guy and he understands the game of basketball. From day one, Eddie was respected as a point guard and could communicate well with his teammates. That has helped him in the coaching profession. Some people worry that because he has been a NBA coach for so long, that he won’t be able to get into the collegiate scene. That is the furthest thing from the truth. He will not have any problems adjusting to the X’s and O’s of college basketball.”

Bob Wenzel, College basketball analyst and former Rutgers head coach (1988-97): “I’m thrilled that Rutgers made a great choice in Eddie Jordan. It’s a home run. He’s one of the most endearing people to ever play at Rutgers. In our time together, he was a great assistant. He has a wealth of basketball knowledge with all of his NBA experience.”

Hollis Copeland, Former teammate and Rutgers All-American: “I think very highly of Eddie. He’s been a head coach of three NBA teams, as well as an NBA assistant coach, college coach and AAU coach. He’s in a position to completely change the complexion of the Rutgers basketball program. It’s a marriage made in heaven. When you look at that (1976) Final Four team, we were a family. We haven’t changed since then and we still stay in touch to share our views. That’s the attitude he will bring. The same attitude we had way back when. He’s a man of high moral fiber. There’s a difference between players just respecting you because you’re the coach and liking you. I think players will like him, and that’s important in a program like Rutgers.”

Phil Sellers, Former teammate and Rutgers First Team All-American: “I can’t express how much this means. Rutgers has a guy who understands what it means to have respect for others. Eddie knows how to approach people. He’s been fortunate to be around some great coaches in his career. Having been his roommate for a couple of years (at Rutgers), to see how far Eddie has come is a great feeling. He’s a hard worker. Anybody who has been associated with Eddie knows that. When he gets his teeth into something, he focuses in. Hard work brings success, so he can only be successful.”

Pete Carill, Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Head Coach: “Eddie Jordan is the best around, anywhere to turn Rutgers into what it could be.”

[Ruzious]

Comparing Randy Wittman & Eddie Jordan as coaches would make for a fair debate.

You'd be comparing two guys with very ugly winning percentages.

Eddie Jordan 257-343 .428 winning percentage
Randy Wittman 147-291 .336 winning percentage

I'd say it's a push, Wittman never had Gil in his prime. Witt has been better here than in Minnesota but hasn't exactly inspired greatness in DC.

You lost me at .428 vs .336 is a push.

[Dat2U]

Comparing Randy Wittman & Eddie Jordan as coaches would make for a fair debate.

You'd be comparing two guys with very ugly winning percentages.

Eddie Jordan 257-343 .428 winning percentage
Randy Wittman 147-291 .336 winning percentage

I'd say it's a push, Wittman never had Gil in his prime. Witt has been better here than in Minnesota but hasn't exactly inspired greatness in DC.

You lost me at .428 vs .336 is a push.

Jordan had better talent than Wittman. My point is neither is good, just varying degrees of bad.

You really lost me when you said Eddie Jordan is a very good coach. Since when is .428 very good?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Comparing Randy Wittman & Eddie Jordan as coaches would make for a fair debate.

You'd be comparing two guys with very ugly winning percentages.

Eddie Jordan 257-343 .428 winning percentage
Randy Wittman 147-291 .336 winning percentage

I'd say it's a push, Wittman never had Gil in his prime. Witt has been better here than in Minnesota but hasn't exactly inspired greatness in DC.

Praise for either could only be faint at best.

Dat, I've looked at every NBA roster Randy Wittman coached. He had no better than .336 talent on those teams IMO. If you can find a roster that underachieved show me. Perhaps I missed something.

I thought EJ coached MISERABLY in a couple of the Cleveland playoff series. I thought he coached almost over his depth at other times. EJ never seemed to figure out how Mike Brown kept throwing size at the Wizards late in playoff games. Varejao and Ilgauskas kept grabbing boards and Cleveland kept getting second chance points over guys like Michael Ruffin, but mostly over a fatigued Antawn Jamison who played too many minutes. But still, most of those losses happened because of Lebron. Crab dribbles, travels, gift free throws, and him just being the best player. Another year they played well until they ran into prime Dwyane Wade. All things considered, EJ at least had the team competing.

I think EJ's win totals also reflect a lack of talent on some of his rosters.

At the other end of the spectrum, people anoint Phil Jackson as sublime but look at who he coached over the years: MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Scottie Pippen, Rodman, Robert Horry, Derrick Fisher, Horace Grant. Show me a Darius Songaila or Michael Ruffin, or even an Etan Thomas playing pivotal rolls. EJ effectively put duct tape on the Titanic and kept it floating IMO.

Wittman is the only coach I've ever seen be respected after having a 4-28 record to start the season.

Those two both are good coaches IMO.

[Dat2U]

If these are good coaches, then what defines a bad coach?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If these are good coaches, then what defines a bad coach?

A bad coach deflects all blame to his players. A bad coach can be disingenuous or two-faced. A bad coach can play favorites. A bad coach can lose the same way but just insist that you "keep pounding the rock", as if doing the same thing that is not working again and again suddenly IS going to work. A bad coach won't explore alternate solutions or different lineups.

Norm Chow (Gotcha, I know you thought I was going to say Flip!) didn't say "pound the rock" (that was Flip) but he did lose just like I described above. He's Hawaii's football coach.

Randy Edsall year one at Maryland put his foot down on discipline and also coached attendance down, morale down, and losses up at UMCP in his first season. He took a team to 2-10 while managing to cultivate his image in the media. But ... I saw some different things for the better in year two. He was BAD year one.

Dat, a bad coach can be any coach who just doesn't have a roster that's for their style of coaching. Could be players they don't want or they're going through personal problems. I was bad on my job for two years that I can recall. Once in the AF and once as an educator years back. Failure happens. Coaches get fired on wins and losses. Bad can be failing to win. In Fridge's case at Maryland, politics and him being an old, fat guy did him in.

Dat, I think a lot of coaches get by on style and hype. What has Larry Drew done at his various stops that's better than EJ?

GETTING BACK ON TOPIC... I think Ernie Grunfeld has fired a lot of coaches and I wonder if he's going to get fired?

[DCZards]

Edit: I think Austin Rivers still has a shot to be a difference-maker, he will have a new role this year.

Beat me to it closg00. Rivers will be a very good player a couple of years from now. You started to see it happen during summer league. He'll prove to be worth the 10th pick.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Edit: I think Austin Rivers still has a shot to be a difference-maker, he will have a new role this year.

Beat me to it closg00. Rivers will be a very good player a couple of years from now. You started to see it happen during summer league. He'll prove to be worth the 10th pick.

closg, I agree Austin Rivers has a chance to be a difference-maker in his new role; which will be coming off the bench behind Jrue Holiday, Eric Gordon, and Tyreke Evans.

DCZ, Rivers certainly did look better in summer league. However, I strongly disagree that he will prove worthy of the 10th pick. One could pose a very strong argument that rookie year Vesely was better than rookie year Austin Rivers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lja01.html

Compared to Jan Vesely's rookie stats, Rivers had a lower PER, a lower WS/48, and his only .546 FT as a rookie was only slightly better than Vesely's .532. Rivers' 9.6 points per 36 minutes was only slightly more than Vesely's 8.9 points per-36.

On top of that, Rivers had even worse on/off stats.

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NOH.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1213/12NOH4.HTM

I think Seth Curry, the Duke player who went undrafted, will probably end up being a better pro than Austin Rivers.

DCZ, this is one of those fun things to track. I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I want people to succeed. I'm not impressed with Austin Rivers' game. I said that years and years about John Wall. I hope to be wrong again. However, I liked the way Seth Curry played well with his teammates and he didn't pad stats or alienate coaching. I suspect Austin Rivers is not a winning baller.

What are his strengths besides a really good three point shot?

[nate33]

Jordan had better talent than Wittman.

This is key. We should compare the talent of the two respective teams:

Jordan vs Wittman
Haywood = Okafor
Jamison (healthy for 3000 minutes) > Nene (1600 minutes, mostly on one foot)
Butler > Webster
Stevenson < Beal
Arenas > Wall
Blatche, Songaila, Daniels = Ariza, Booker, Seraphin, Temple

I'd say the Jordan team had a much better advantage. But once Wittman got Wall healthy, they had comparable records.

[payitforward]

Edit: I think Austin Rivers still has a shot to be a difference-maker, he will have a new role this year.

Beat me to it closg00. Rivers will be a very good player a couple of years from now. You started to see it happen during summer league. He'll prove to be worth the 10th pick.

Not a chance. Austin Rivers is just a terrible basketball player. A conscience-less, unrestrained chucker.

Exactly what would the predicted total turnaround be based on? And what exactly is the prediction based on?

I sometimes wonder whether guys ever look back to see how often their crystal ball is cracked and cloudy.

[DCZards]

DCZ, Rivers certainly did look better in summer league. However, I strongly disagree that he will prove worthy of the 10th pick. One could pose a very strong argument that rookie year Vesely was better than rookie year Austin Rivers.

Compared to Jan Vesely's rookie stats, Rivers had a lower PER, a lower WS/48, and his only .546 FT as a rookie was only slightly better than Vesely's .532. Rivers' 9.6 points per 36 minutes was only slightly more than Vesely's 8.9 points per-36.

On top of that, Rivers had even worse on/off stats.

I think Set Curry, the Duke player who went undrafted, will probably end up being a better pro than Austin Rivers.

CCJ, I'm not surprised that the stats show that Ves had a better rookie season than Rivers. I had HIGH hopes for Jan going into his second season...and Rivers struggled big time as a rookie. I'm one of those Zards fans who thought Ves could be an impact player for us, especially with his size, athleticism and Bball IQ. But he's let us down. I'd put money on Rivers having a better second season--and NBA future than Ves.

The biggest and most obvious difference between the two players is that Ves totally lacks self-confidence, while Rivers has a ton of confidence and swag--as well as a dad in his ear who will make sure he continues to mature and get better.

I like Seth Curry. I was surprised he didn't get drafted. He'll eventually land a spot on a NBA roster. He's too good of a shooter not to.